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The Kingdoms vs. The Empires

The Kingdoms vs. The Empires

BG22_Fire For beta testers, only the Kingdoms have been exposed.  The Kingdoms play much like a traditional 4X game.  You build city improvements to get benefits to your city. You train up soldiers hoping they’ll get better and better. It is a civilization based on laws and rules.

The Empire has taken a different path…

In War

Their soldiers don’t gain experience. Such a concept of thinking about individual soldiers is anathema to the Empire.

As such, there is no such thing as a veteran Imperial soldier. However, they can train up special, powerful units (Guardians, Enforcers, and Sions).  These powerful individuals will routinely demonstrate the inherent flaw in trying to train groups of soldiers to be more effective. Greatness is born. Not learned.

In Peace

There is no tradition of civics in the Empire. Moreover, the concept of bee keeping or fruit orchard harvesting and what not is completely foreign. The Empire looks at the Kingdoms with absolute contempt that they would waste time harvesting such things.

Of course, it also means the Empires can harvest fewer special resources in the world. To make up for this, the Empire can build hog farms adjacent to their farms. That’s real food. Pathetic Kingdoms.

The Empire also scoffs at the Civics concepts of markets. Deals are made on the basis of leverage alone. Instead of relying on institutions, the Empire relies on leaders of capitalism to deal with it. Players can build Financiers (until we have a better name, feel free to suggest a better one) who enhance the city’s money making.

Similarly, there is no formal education system in the Empire. Schools? Universities? These concepts are worthless. The Kingdoms foolishly entrust their futures to special interests. In the Empire, players can create Sage units who can be sent where they are needed to boost knowledge production.

There are no pubs in the Empire. No Inns.  Such decadence is forbidden. Prestige is generated by showing respect to those who have seized power such as statues to great figures such as Lord Kir-Tion and Curgen the Dred’nir.

In Magic

Again, letting something as important as magic be taught by a special interest is another weakness of the Kingdom that the Empire has no part of. The Empire instead has its own magic commissars – the Lore masters who study the ancient texts to discover the correct spells needed to dominate the world. These units can be built and sent where needed.

Adventuring? I don’t think so

The Kingdoms have an entire knowledge field called “Adventuring”. There is no such concept in The Empire. Adventuring implies a light hearted search for excitement. This is why the Empire has dominated the world, it has no use for pointless wandering.

The Empires focus on Domination. Finding and re-learning knowledge scattered throughout the world. 

The Kingdoms, dominated by cowardly men, like to stay in their schools and temples. The Empire, dominated by the races of the Fallen and the lone race of men with the strength to embrace the philosophy of the Empires (Kraxis) gain knowledge and strength from going out into the world and seizing it from others. Dangerous places have great knowledge and the Empire is particularly skilled in finding that knowledge.

The Empire will rule

The fact is, the Empires are the dominant form of social organization in the world. The Kingdoms, with their weak, so-called concepts of liberty, social contracts and obsession with the rights of individuals is an absurd, artificial creation that violates the laws of nature.

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Reply #176 Top

The Empire also scoffs at the Civics concepts of markets. Deals are made on the basis of leverage alone. Instead of relying on institutions, the Empire relies on leaders of capitalism to deal with it. Players can build Financiers (until we have a better name, feel free to suggest a better one) who enhance the city’s money making.

 

How about using the term "Tycoons."  The word has several negative or nefarious connotations, and seems to fit well with the demeanor and style of the Empire.

Reply #177 Top

Or RobberBaron

Reply #178 Top

those are both negative terms for capitalistic entrepenuers and have no place in a fantasy empire

Reply #179 Top


The Empire also scoffs at the Civics concepts of markets. Deals are made on the basis of leverage alone. Instead of relying on institutions, the Empire relies on leaders of capitalism to deal with it. Players can build Financiers (until we have a better name, feel free to suggest a better one) who enhance the city’s money making.

Coin-monger

-A particularly skilled merchant can seek to rise above his less fortunate rivals to obtain dominance over their activities and, in many cases, their lives. Coin-mongers are one of few meritocratic positions in the Empires, greatness being born rather than learned. Better to hold the whip over those that learn too slowly, in any case.

Fiscal Lord

-The highest ranking member of a low caste, the Fiscal 'Lord' is a grandiose title for those that grease the wheels of expansion and conquest with the tinkling of coin. Though money be the sinew of war, the money-makers of the Empires are regarded as an unhealthy and unwelcome facet of their great society. 

Pecuniary ex officio.

-With a deserved reputation for political intrigue, corruption, and bloody long-standing vendettas, the small and secretive ex officio class can be the Empire leader's best friend and worst enemy.

Legate of the Investiture Cabal

-The Legate is the undisputed leader of the cabal that deals with all Empire financial matters. Undisputed until a rival or usurper puts a dagger in his back, of course. Assassinations, bribary and blackmail are the facts of daily life in the cabal.

Reply #180 Top

My favorites are still Profiteer and Vizier

Reply #181 Top

I don't think anyone suggested quaestor.

 

Seneschal would be the medieval equivalent, though quaestor has an obvious Imperial flair.

Reply #182 Top

Seneschal (imho) is a good suggestion.

Reply #183 Top

Quoting Zoe_E, reply 181
I don't think anyone suggested quaestor.

Best suggestion yet, I think. It's a pretty obscure title, that most people probably won't associate with a ton of un-Empire-like things. Even better, I'm pretty sure it's only ever been used by dogmatic, inflexible & highly corrupt authorities. So the associations it does evoke, I think, are the right ones.

Reply #184 Top

Quoting Zoe_E, reply 181
I don't think anyone suggested quaestor.

 

Seneschal would be the medieval equivalent, though quaestor has an obvious Imperial flair.

Yeah, I was thinking about suggesting quaestor or praetor even [even tho quaestor is more appropriate, since they supervised the financial affairs.] However I think that SD don't want to use these ancient roman ranks, so this is why I haven't suggested it before. :)

Either way, if I must choose....quaestor or vizier. Quaestor sounds better of course. :P

Reply #185 Top

Nah, the Empires are in the east, I think Vizier would be more appropriate :3

 

In any case, I would think words like Seneschal and Vizier would be at least slightly more common than Quaestor. Also, I just don't get any sinister feeling from the word Quaestor xD

Reply #186 Top

 

:X

 

Reply #187 Top

 

buggy triple post

:X

 

Reply #188 Top

Coin-monger is my favorite in this new crop. The European Parliament has Quaestors who are just finance bureaucrats, and the classical Roman ones weren't consistently associated with brutal exploitation. I still like Factor quite a bit.

Reply #189 Top

Factor...? lol?   What's that..?  Never heard that word before.

 

We have to find a word that sounds evil or preferably like someone that would squeeze out every last penny from innocent, hardworking people.

Reply #190 Top

Quoting Campaigner, reply 189
Factor...? lol?    Never heard the word before. Gotta be a word that sounds evil.

The problem is that your parameter is an eye-of-the-beholder problem. Susarian suggested Factors way back on page 1 of this thread.

... Factors [from our friends in Medici Bank (1397–1494)] 

The Medici reference alone made that a fun idea for me, and putting it together with the roots of the modern word "fact" in the Latin "factum" just made it more fun. Imperial money authorities are a fact of life and they make you do things.

Reply #191 Top

Quoting Campaigner, reply 189
We have to find a word that sounds evil or preferably like someone that would squeeze out every last penny from innocent, hardworking people.

I.R.S. LOL!

Reply #192 Top

Tax Collectors

 

back in the day, Tax Collectors were known for skimming, and were in general hated by the populace. (much more-so than today, since most of the money went into their own pocket)

Reply #193 Top

I'd buy this game because it looks like it's going to be pretty cool, however I think I'm going to skip on it based off how Demigod was literally abandoned.

Reply #194 Top

itsmevic, the developer of the game determines the future support/updates. compare sins of a solar empire(ironclad games) & demigod(gas powered games) and also the past support history of the developers( gas powered games  has a bit of a history of creating a game releasing some patches and maybe an expansion then silence eg supreme commander, ironclad games still give the feel that they care about their product,) and as the developer of elemental is stardock NOT a third party developer, look at stardocks ongoing support with other software they have released. my feeling is that they are likely to continue to  support for significant period.

harpo

 

Reply #195 Top

Quoting Anomander, reply 124
So can a Kingdom never grow to be an Empire?

 

That depends on how you define an empire.  The Empires (big E) in this game are made up of mostly artificial beings.  There is one human faction who have adopted the mindset of these beings.  A kindom could become an empire (small e).

A Kingdom could control huge tracts of land.  They could take this land by force, conquering or absorbing smaller kingdoms (nations).  In that sense they would be an empire.  Philosophically and biologically the would not be an Empire (except for those few dudes who decided to join them).

Reply #196 Top

About the experience: If they breed troops of primitive humanoids or animals, they rely on instinct and lack the cognitive capabilites of gaining experience, a select few might realize that running straight into a formation of pikes is bad. And regardless of the pikes, if the leader says charge you charge. Simply because they lack individualism and the intelligence for assessing a situation and learning from it they advance much slower if at all in xp.

 

About the leaders:

What we want are titles, titles that hint at concepts we already know. Something like sages makes me think of old men in long beards who take time to reach evaluated decisions, not someone who goes forward in teh world grasping knowledge where it is found. I'd rather go for something like

Savant, Augur, Lord's Eye, Grasper, Wayfinder(not really this but something this way goes), Reader(or the like, they would be considered special if everyone can't read), or something else that is not necessarily involved in research but that can be applied.

Likewise goes for the economic specialist. Tycoon and Magnate fit well but seem a bit non-medieval (the meaning of magnate used now comes from 18th century and later, before magnate was a parliament member in Poland, whereas tycoon is derived from japanese and is a 19th century word). Vizier works for me, people mainly think of them as evil because they are advisors, peer reviewers(best part of the group are internal affairs right?), and the ones who handle the money and day to day affairs(tax drivers). A bit advanced for the feel of the Empire, but we have dragons what the heck. I'd once again go for words without a relevant meaning that you can see the oppression in but doesn't directly hint at earth's history, but that's just my preference again.. Something like:

Collector, Wealthkeeper, or the like works for me.

Reply #197 Top


Players can build Financiers (until we have a better name, feel free to suggest a better one) who enhance the city’s money making.

...

In the Empire, players can create Sage units who can be sent where they are needed to boost knowledge production.

...

Prestige is generated by showing respect to those who have seized power such as statues to great figures such as Lord Kir-Tion and Curgen the Dred’nir.

...

The Empire instead has its own magic commissars – the Lore masters who study the ancient texts to discover the correct spells needed to dominate the world. These units can be built and sent where needed.

These provoked a question: Does the Empire have global money, knowledge, and magic production like the Kingdoms do? If so, what would be the point of "sending them where they are needed"? It'd be too easy to just have them globally produce from one well-defended location.

 

Prestige makes sense though since that is not global, but per city.

Reply #198 Top

This is going to be ridiculously fantastic...love the variation between the factions.

Reply #199 Top

You could always make a lore addition to the empires, of a "neutral" organisation dealing with the different empire nations, called The Guild. This organisation would deal with all financial matters. This would give you the opportunity to have all economy-based units for empire nations have some affilitation to The Guild, and as such, could influence their name in that way.

Or, you could just scrap the lore thing, and just call them Guildsmen, or somesuch. :p

Reply #200 Top

Reading the initial post and Raven X's comment, i still find myself agreeing with the latter. It seems like many of the dynamics on which the game was sold have been chopped out for the empires. Adventuring? Gone. Resource development? Gone, build a pig farm instead. Are guardians, enforcers and sions designed or are they more like Supreme Commander Experimentals? IN that case, does the unit design part of the game dissappear?

 

I appreciate the desire to creat a LoTR style battle of good and evil, but it seems very limiting to draw such massive distinctions. Is it totally unreasonable that a player might want to play a greedy, yet capitalistic and open evil faction, like the Korx in GalCiv? And what happens when half the kingdoms have fallen? If it's impossible for the empires to end up at war with each other then the end game is going to be a pretty much forgone conclusion after the game reaches a certain point. I usually quit when this point arrives as the game is no longer a challenge for me, regardless of whether i'm winning or not.