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More discussion of Factions and Races (long)

More discussion of Factions and Races (long)

 

AllyDragon

…In the beginning there were Men and Dragons…

When the Titans came, they saw the creatures of the world as building blocks and created many new creatures from them. These creatures are called (by men) “The Fallen”.  There are four known sentient races of The Fallen (see the Lore for more details).

In previous discussions, we have used analogies to Middle Earth.  In Middle Earth, Illuvatar created only two sentient races. The Elves and then Men.  All other sentient races were created “unnaturally” (the dwarves and Orcs being the best example. The origin of halflings is unknown). 

In Elemental, there are more factions than there are races. This is similar to Sins of a Solar Empire where there are many factions but only 3 races.

When we use the term “race” we really mean species in the specific sense that they cannot interbreed except for Channelers and their offspring.

...Fitting Lore into a Game...

SciFi/fantasy lore that evolved outside a game (as was the case with both Galactic Civilizations and Elemental) can be difficult to fit into a game universe.

In Galactic Civilizations, the universe -- its lore, was never published so I had a free hand to tweak all the civilizations to fit the needs of the game.

Elemental is a bit different because its lore is being presented in a book (Elemental: Destiny's Embers).  In the book, it's fairly straight forward. You've got two general aligments - The Kingdoms and the Empires.  The Empires are dominated by races of the Fallen and the Kingdoms are dominated by the races of Men. Simple right? Well... Read on to see the complexities and why we're brainstorming with you guys on other directions.

 

image….Pre-made Races vs. Player Created Races…

Yesterday we discussed what priority should custom art assets versus canon art assets should take. If we focus primarily on canon factions and their corresponding races, we can greatly expand their stories and the art assets for them.  However, if we focus less on the canon factions and more on providing assets we can let players create their own unique races and factions that are more rewarding visually and game play wise.

The question thus becomes which direction to take? 

…Understanding Game Development…

By the end of this journey, I suspect many of you will have a much better understanding of what game development is like.  The “game” itself is the tip of the iceberg. What you see in these betas is only a tiny piece of the whole “product”. Underneath the covers is the engine and art assets. The game itself we can monkey around with any dozens of ways based on player feedback.  The expensive part is building the engine (which isn’t even in the beta yet) and creating the art assets (only a bit are in the beta).

Thus, once we begin to commit to things that involve changing the game engine or the art assets, they’re pretty much set in stone. By contrast, changing research or economy or spells or what have you is largely just changing text in XML.

So we are reaching the point where we will have to make decisions on whether to focus more on canon assets or assets to be used by players to create their own world.  I.e. Dragon Age (canon centric) or Spore (non-canon centric).

We don’t have to go to either extreme.

…Fantasy Races…

In traditional high fantasy, you’ve got men, dwarves, elves, orcs, goblins. People have a pretty good idea the pros and cons of them because they appear in so many games.  In our world, we don’t have dwarves or elves or orcs.  We have the natural races and the races made by the Titans. They’re not good or evil based on their race but rather on their faction. The Krax are men but they’re real bastards. There are Fallen races out there that aren’t evil at all (but they don’t come into our particular tale right now, you’ll need to read the book).

…Complexity…

We don’t want to “dumb down” the game in any way but at the same time, we don’t want to have unnecessary complexity. The fact that we have Empires/Kingdoms and then Factions and then Races is pretty complicated as is.  It would be so much easier if the Empires were all Fallen and the Kingdoms were men but that would be simplistic and frankly, to me, distasteful. It’s bad enough that the unnatural sentients are called Fallen but that’s only because our tale is told from the point of view of man and thus can identify their bias on our own.

In our game, there are 5 true races (Men, Urxen, Trogs, Magnars, and Wraiths).  But even amongst these 5 there are sub-groups (The Ironeers if Gilden and the Krax are visually very distinctive but genetically compatible).

You can see how this gets complex in a hurry and why there is the urge to simplify to appeal to a wider audience. Will the fantasy strategy buying public be interested in learning the intricacies of the lore that’s been developed here over the past two decades? Or would they prefer us to simplify it into a couple of basic races (Men and Fallen) and let people get on to making their own races.  You would still have the same factions, they’d simply just be made up of two races (men and fallen) and then players could make their own races.

So that’s the discussion we have going on.  My bias is to focus on our own canon and introduce players to it. Players could still create their own races but they’re not going to be making any half-dragon half man races or Ents or what have you.  That’s my bias on it because that sort of thing can be added later in post-release if the game’s successful whereas we only get one opportunity to really explore the depths of the rift between say Kraxis and Capitar or the doom of Pariden and Procipinee.

…Implementation…

Here’s how races could be implemented:

image

First, when creating a faction you would have a new tab called “race”. The existing races would be there. 

You would choose a specific (easy to understand) ability that makes that race unique. Hard Workers might produce pioneers that get more out of resources. Fierce Warriors might get a combat speed boost. Good Traders might be the only ones who can reach paved roads. Fast Travelers go faster. Great Archers can shoot further (maybe attack on the strategic map from a tile away even).   The difference would be significant.

Then you pick the Appearance and that’s where we really hit the art asset budget. Skeletons are expensive because you then have the clothes and equipment to go on them (in Spore, you may have noticed nobody had clothes you could put on them).  The rest is fairly easy. But obviously no Centaurs or Quaddies.

image

Then in your cities, you would see next to the current owner of the city what race populates the city. A faction may conquer another city but the race in the city remains the same.  The part with enchantments you should ignore – you don’t know about that yet.

Now obviously, people can get into mixing (ala Civ IV and such) but there is so much going on in the world that we want to try to avoid having potentially 30+ different races making up a city (i.e. if we let players create their own races as well as factions, we have to be careful about how convoluted it gets).

Your thoughts

I hope you guys are enjoying these journals and their peak at the kinds of things that go on during game development. Marketing hates these journals because they expose the world to the “sausage factory” that is commercial game development.

Please feel free to share your thoughts.

204,390 views 104 replies
Reply #101 Top

Oh i just love it when you can costumize a race make all the units,race and sovereign making a whole race then faction and then making all the lore for that its just awesome love costumeablilty in games and ElementaL has alot of it one of the main reasons (if not the main reason)i like this game  and will buy it i even recomended it to my friends they where like "ahh its tbs,tbs is lame how can you play that" then when i said there is alot of cusomablity they where like "when dose it come out im getting it on that day" customizablity really attracts alot of people to the game.ofc i love the lore as well i started the "Lore" section https://www.elementalgame.info/wiki/index.php/Main_Page i suggest people help keep this site you know full of data i love the wiki pages like http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon_Age_Wiki it helped me MUCH more than the instruction manual well much more than anything the game had to explain well maby since its made by people who play the game not make it we are all just players and use the most simple ways to describe something well  not something like "this thingy is a thingy that is a thingy and dose 5 damage and extra damage to other thingys" coz thats just plain out stupid...i see my friend in this sentace somehow he is just too stupid and way to simple xD

Reply #102 Top

So that’s the discussion we have going on.  My bias is to focus on our own canon and introduce players to it. Players could still create their own races but they’re not going to be making any half-dragon half man races or Ents or what have you.  That’s my bias on it because that sort of thing can be added later in post-release if the game’s successful whereas we only get one opportunity to really explore the depths of the rift between say Kraxis and Capitar or the doom of Pariden and Procipinee.

…Implementation…
Here’s how races could be implemented:


Lore, creating own race is sure an important aspect for providing the fun factor.   However, if I have to choose, the infinite replayability of the game is utmost importance.    Lore does not seem to be important to me, something basic like how this race/fraction is different from each other etc, that can be summarize into a 4 page printout for each fraction is good enuf.

I can see from beta (& posts) that already efforts to achieve infinite replayability  but the "…Implementation…" above  seems on the contrary restrain that.  All traits like Profession/Talents/Weakness (like  Hard Workers, Fierce Warriors etc) should be pickable from game start instead of restricting it to race.  I've already describe in detail in the post "Extreme (& Integrated) Customization for Professions, Talents & Weaknesses, Fraction Traits"   


I might not convey this idea above very well, but the central idea is to let us pick whatever attribute/traits SD have ever programmed into the game, regardless of the race/fraction/sov/etc picked.   Game balance amongst all players are then acheived by the use of "Talent Points".


When a game start, I want to pick whaterver traits I want, whatever spell  school I want.  Then I pick a set of starting units via Stardock canon fraction (or a customized fraction gamers made).   Fraction should just be a set of units (with its own lore)

Yesterday we discussed what priority should custom art assets versus canon art assets should take. If we focus primarily on canon factions and their corresponding races, we can greatly expand their stories and the art assets for them.  However, if we focus less on the canon factions and more on providing assets we can let players create their own unique races and factions that are more rewarding visually and game play wise.
The question thus becomes which direction to take? 

The question I have is, can the skeletons (art asset) be customized as per desribed in post #76 Vordrak?

be able to scale it (we could make tiny fairies, for example - and scaled armour and weapons would still fit)be able to scale height only (dwarves)we would also like to be able to have sufficient custom heads to have a bestial orcish headwings (fey again, or demons)also red eyes (orcs)also the option of pointy ears (elves)also skin colours and textures


Can armor/equipment/clothing be 'attached' this kind of flexible skeleton?

I don't know your answers.  If your answer is no now, can SD make that happen (without crazy budget needed)?  

If your answer is impossible technically & financially now & in future,  I would like SD's direction be make more "custom art assert" for different body skeletons.   Playing a fantasy game will mostly bipedal humanoid aren't that 'fantasy' to me, and I have limited attention span for lore.   If I really want interesting (and lengthly) lore, I buy a paperback.

Reply #103 Top

I will admit, the ONE thing that i've heard about this game that  gives me pause is race/factions. Basically, the whole good idea of starting and creating your own world is great, however you know people are going to want elves, orcs, and such. To make entirely new races within the two factions seems to be more of a lack of variety, in my own small opinion. You're either a 'good man' or a 'bad man'. Now, as you have stated it's not that simple however my first few impressions of this game WERE that, as I am sure that for many of the people here had a similar thought process as well as many people who will start to read more information on this game as we near the release date currently scheduled in the fall. My concern, is that they will have my own thought process past that.

"Where are the elves?" "Uh, we don't have those. You can make em though"

"Nah, that's okay. How about orcs?" "Uh...theres a great character editor for..."

"...dwarves?" "...well...this one group of dudes LOOKS liek dwarves..."

At this point, many might decide to not invest more time into research as I did and simply right the game off as thinking, why should I waste my time on a fantasy game where you can only be good men or bad men? I go here and I've got lots of others. Distinction is KEY. Variety can be achieved in other ways too. Just because elves live in hippie forest communes in most fantasy doesn't mean they have to in this world, as I suspect myself and many other players will immediately start creating and replacing most of the core factions with in game, for the sake of having a much better variety. This is seen in other RTS and strategy games. Factions need to be DIFFERENT, or else it's just these dudes over here vs these slightly different dudes over here.

This doesn't mean I disagree with what you want to do, or your lore. I agree with your opening post. There is a difference between dumbing down and giving unneeded complexitiy. For an opening game where you have to establish EVERYTHING you need to have things digestible without making us keep a bottle of apsirin on head when we dive in those first few crucial times. However, you also need enough familairty to have people come in and give you those first curical shots. If the races all look like fantasy standard knock offs, have racial abilities like traditionals, or are just jibberish words, people might not care to give you that shot, which I believe after paying attention to this sight you guys greatly deserve.

Reply #104 Top

Quoting Luckmann, reply 60
This is where I'll chime in and just say that I absolutely hate the way you've divided it up into "Kingdoms" and "Empires", instead of more iconic, individual, descriptive names, regardless if they belong to the western or eastern bloc and their race(s).

There. I said it.

+1.

 

I think you'd better concentrate on the lore. The game right now (beta) doesn't show anything about it, and there's just a bunch of bland, identical-sounding, names. You have to flesh them up a lot to have people interested in the world, so it's better to concentrate on that rather than on models you might not reuse.

It would probably be easier to understand if players didn't make the difference between factions and races, though. I don't want to make the difference between races but between factions only.