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[1Z1][Suggestion] Food, Housing, and Prestige Overhaul

[1Z1][Suggestion] Food, Housing, and Prestige Overhaul

As many people have pointed out the current food & housing system is a bit odd and not well liked. The reason I think is because you use food to build houses which doesn't make sense as those houses could be empty. And once the houses are built you can proceed to lose your food production and while it will become negative there is no real penalty. Also once a city has reach the desired level there is no incentive to maintain the current population. You can simply demolish the houses in favor of putting up production facilities. The same goes for the Prestige buildings as once you have reached the max amount of people needed the buildings become useless and ripe for demolish in favor of better buildings.

That being said what I propose is a real shift on how these things are looked at and used in the game. The objective of these changes is to makes sure they make sense from a strategic point of view and that they stay important throughout all stages of the game. Also since this is more concept then hard numbers I'll try to stay clear of using actual figures as that falls under balancing which can be worked out later. Anyway down to business.

 

Food

Obviously food should be used to feed the people. So the question is how to go about doing this. Well since the economy is global with all resources treated to one giant pool it stands to reason that food should be the same way. Though it's not just resources but also population that shows up on your global resources.

This provides a bit of a unique opertunity as we can use the global population to determine the food consumption as it also includes your army units. Thus if you build a large army it could end up eating most of your food. This way late game players won't be able to simply withdraw large numbers of their population into their army as a way of avoiding having to feed them.

It seems obvious that while food is in surplus the population should grow. The real question is what happens when there is a food shortage. Well a couple things can happen, first the most obvious is some of your people die from starvation and second your military units become less effective either from some penalty of maybe some HP loss. The exact amounts and figures to be determined during a balancing phase.

The question on how to manage a shortage can be handled several different ways.

1) The player has not control over which villages starve.

2) The player can assign priority on a sort of resource priority page which simply list the order in which towns should be given resources in case of shortages.

3) Similar to 2 only the player could choose to spread the shortage evenly thus no one city takes a major hit. Including possibly a mix with a High/Med/Low priority setup.

4) If a military penalty aspect is in play for food shortage then the player can choose which gets priority the military or the civilians. This would work best if the military actually takes an HP hit and can't heal until food comes in surplus again. After all if the player is damaging his resource gather base by starving out then the other option should also be damaging beyond simply a weaker atk/def for a single round. As in both cases the losses can be naturally recovered once food supplies are restored.

This also allows for the option of sieges that cut off food supply since as the mechanics for a starving population will already be in place.

 

Prestige

Prestige I think is ment to represent how popular and atractive a city is to potential citizens. While right now it serves as little more then a counter for how many people move in each turn. I think a much better approach would be to use prestige as a more dynamic tool that is sort of another cap to population as well as housing.

What I mean by this is the higher the prestige the more people move in just like now but at the same time the more people that are in your city the slower it grows. After all as the city fills up it becomes more crowded and less atractive to new citizens. Unless you continue to improve it with things that will draw people's attention like inns, pubs, theaters, and town halls.

So it becomes a bit of an uphill battle as the more population you get the slower the city grows which means you need more prestige to help make it grow faster. And of course there will be some point at which having too low of a prestige will mean that people actually start moving out of your city. This means that you will need to maintain a decent amount of prestige to keep your citizens happy and staying in your city. It will also make many of the currently useless prestige buildings serve a purpose.

 

Housing

Obviously given the change to food the houses shouldn't require them anymore. But given the changes to Prestige I think most of the housing buildings should give some prestige. Though I also think huts, housing, and Villas shouldn't be auto upgrade. As the higher ones should give more prestige and cost more as well as giving more population cap like they do now. The option to upgrade without having to demolish the old building and building a new one should be implemented as this would be a good feature in general since many modders will likely want to have building upgrades that are not automatic.

This new setup could make houses with high prestige such as estates more worth the investment. Along with even more potential to make the slums matter as a choice. Several people have already noted the slums need either more population support or less food usage. Under this setup though the food isn't really an issue though it probably would need a larger population cap. But overall it does open up some possibilities which would need to be worked out in balancing issues but the basic concept is there. As it's a trade off with faster population growth of high prestige but lower housing cap vs a higher housing capacity with slower growth. So it'll be kinda like it is now except growth slows down as the city gets closer to being full and you need to maintain a curtain amount of prestige to keep your citizens.

 

Final thoughts and other ideas

This setup makes it so in a way you have 3 things determining your population capacity but each one has a different effect so it's a bit of a balancing game. As food not only applies to your citizens but also your military there is the need for large amounts of food. While prestige has more of a morale effect on cities by not only effecting how fast they grow but also how much over crowding they will tolerate. And lastly the housing is of course the population cap for the city but also allows more types of bonuses to be applied to different housing effects in not only prestige but also possible other things like gold for "taxes".

While the proposed system includes some changes to all 3 areas they are not really dependent on one another. Like the food change could be made but the prestige could remain the same or have a completely different approach. And like I said before this is mainly an exercise in concept rather then specific numbers and balance. So things like how much food a farm should produce of how many people 1 food should support and all that stuff can be addressed at a later date. Even the figures currently in use on food, housing, and prestige haven't gone through any balancing so don't rely on them as a basis of comparison when it comes to numbers but rather compare how their mechanics work.

Before I wrap it up I'd like to close by covering another problem that exist under the current system, which is population only matters for leveling up the city. Once a city has reached level 5 there is no real reason to keep the population around. The city will not de-level even if you demolish all of the housing/prestige buildings. This quite frankly is not a good thing as you should want a player to need to keep that level 5's city at or above 1000 people to really get it's benefit.

I think the easiest method to make players want to keep the city's population up after reaching that level is by having a modifier of something like (Current Population/Required Population for Level) apply to the output of buildings in the city, it would max out at 1 so you'd need to put a cap on it since it's only meant as a penalty if they go under. Thus a level 4 city which requires 500 people to reach with only 400 people in it would only produce at 80% efficiency. This combined with level multiplier I've read about mention would really make a huge difference.

I only recently read about the multiplier and didn't really notice it in the beta so not sure if it's in, was planned but then scraped as some post in forums are old so this next part could be off. But supposedly a level 4 city has it's buildings produce at 4 times the amount thus a market with 1 gold is actually producing 4 gold. Well under the suggested modifier above a level 3 city with a base produce of 10 would produce 30 goods. While a level 4 city would produce 40 but because the level 4 has a higher multiplier it could drop to 75% of the needed 500 population before it's production was less then that of the level 3 city.

Of course that is a very basic setup which is easy for the player to understand. A much more complicated one with the population production penalty more closely matching the curve from level 3 to level 4 population vs bonus given could be down but then you'd probably also need to take into account the increased number in building slots and such. But that seems like more of a headache. Especially when the goal is quite simply have the player keep their population above the level required by the city's level.

 

Anyway I'd like to know what you think of my proposal. Questions, comments, and etc. let me know.

 

234,110 views 114 replies
Reply #101 Top

I think there is real value to having the terrain (swamp, deserts, etc.) affect production based on a player's race.

Reply #102 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 101
I think there is real value to having the terrain (swamp, deserts, etc.) affect production based on a player's race.

Agreed. It's called Variety.

Reply #103 Top

Quoting Raven, reply 102



Quoting Frogboy,
reply 101
I think there is real value to having the terrain (swamp, deserts, etc.) affect production based on a player's race.



Agreed. It's called Variety.

Agreed as well. :)

Reply #104 Top

Agreed

Reply #105 Top

So like ... 0.5 on plains and tundra for Fallen, 2x for Trogs on Desert, 2x for Urxen on Swamps, 2x for plains on humans, and 1x for tundra-humans? and 1x for Trog swamp, and 1x for Urxen desert?

Or perhaps for Trogs 2x desert, 1x plains, 0.5 swamps and tundra

Urxen 2x swamp, 1x plains, 0.5 desert and tundra

Humans 2x plain, 1x tundra, 0.5 desert and swamps

Reply #106 Top

I can see the point of randomly generated terrain causing a challenge to player start position, but I think that's fixable within the random map generator to balance starting positions by checking available nearby resources and having some balance applied there (ie, semirandom maps).  It isn't solvable at the global map balancing level, for reasons discussed before (ie, making something rarer just unbalances a lucky start position MORE), but making things more common (ie, plains, forest, stony ground) all over the map actually eases unfair starting positions to a certain point, as the effect of a "prime real estate" is mollified by how often they occur.  I'd agree that a starting position with 3 specials (say, wheat, special trees, and ore all within city reach) is a very strong starting position.  But if the random map code is set up to ensure that you only get, say 2 of 3 of those near your city (within 10 tiles, say), but the rest of the land around it is a good mix of regions, then I think you can lower the risk.

Besides, one of the things touted for elemental was a "come from behind" mechanic, so that early benefits are less beneficial.  If you don't have really good starting position, focus on making your soveriegn godlike, and go Gandalf on someone ELSE's starting position.

Reply #107 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 101
I think there is real value to having the terrain (swamp, deserts, etc.) affect production based on a player's race.

Agreed. It would seem that this idea, when linked to the recent "Rethinking Factions" thread could provide a more diverse solution to how various "Races" deal with the local environments.

It seems a pretty good bet that Wheat does not grow well in a Swamp. So does this little tidbit perhaps provides us a glimpse into what may be a new Food sources to come etc.?

Imagine a graphic Tile specific to the "Plateau People" of the "Marcassian Mountains" to the East, that creates vast layered terraces in which they grow their annual Super Rice crop. 1 pound is said to feed 40 people vs 1 pound of Wheat to 15.

Or the wondrous trade goods of the super elusive and highly nomadic "Antarapik Tribes" of the great Desert to the West. A people known to have harnessed actual Sky Lightning to create Glass sculptures so beautiful, so highly sought after, and yet so fragile, no caravan has ever been able to transport even a single piece, in tact,  this far East. Bah. Must just be a rumor...

 

 

Reply #108 Top

Quoting Winnihym, reply 106
I can see the point of randomly generated terrain causing a challenge to player start position, but I think that's fixable within the random map generator to balance starting positions by checking available nearby resources and having some balance applied there (ie, semirandom maps).  It isn't solvable at the global map balancing level, for reasons discussed before (ie, making something rarer just unbalances a lucky start position MORE), but making things more common (ie, plains, forest, stony ground) all over the map actually eases unfair starting positions to a certain point, as the effect of a "prime real estate" is mollified by how often they occur.  I'd agree that a starting position with 3 specials (say, wheat, special trees, and ore all within city reach) is a very strong starting position.  But if the random map code is set up to ensure that you only get, say 2 of 3 of those near your city (within 10 tiles, say), but the rest of the land around it is a good mix of regions, then I think you can lower the risk.

Besides, one of the things touted for elemental was a "come from behind" mechanic, so that early benefits are less beneficial.  If you don't have really good starting position, focus on making your soveriegn godlike, and go Gandalf on someone ELSE's starting position.

Not Terrain per say but rather placement of Resources on those terrain types. I think Frogboy's idea of using Terrain and Race in combination might be quite neat. I offered a couple of ideas just in case. :)

Reply #109 Top

Quoting John_Hughes, reply 107

It seems a pretty good bet that Wheat does not grow well in a Swamp. So does this little tidbit perhaps provides us a glimpse into what may be a new Food sources to come etc.?
 

Well they already have several food sources as is. The garden, wheat farm, orchard, and beehives are in the game so I don't see a problem with additional ones. The game is suppose to be very mod freely and adding a new resource shouldn't be that difficult. So I don't see them having a problem adding new resources either.

Reply #110 Top

"So I don't see them having a problem adding new resources either."

True enough, but nothing grows in enough abundance in a true Desert to sustain a static population, unless you find an Oasis. Even then, the water it provides would limit the size of any group wishing to settle their. Thus Deserts are still poor places to build anything greater than a village or smaller.

In truth, most desert dwellers are all Nomadic as hell, even the local wild life. Water and food are scarce and very seasonal.

P.S. That is, of course, unless you live in a Desert climate and also own one of the worlds largest natural Oil Reserves... :)

Is Oil in as a resource in E:WoM yet?? ;)

 

Reply #111 Top

Quoting John_Hughes, reply 110

Is Oil in as a resource in E:WoM yet??
 

It should be as it's been used for hundreds of years. After all I wanna dump boiling oil down from my castle walls on my enemies... Then light them on fire.

}:)

 

EDIT: They also used it during the crusades to take out siege equipment. Though it was the Islamic soldiers who used it not the crusaders. They mixed some crude oil, sand, and other stuff to make a sticky mixture that was basically a primitive form of napalm since it stuck to everything and burned for a long time.

Also the Chinese have some of the oldest known oil drilling platforms. They were made of bamboo who's unique tensil strength allowed them to drill at depths the western world was only able to reach once steel cables were invented.

A lot of natural resources we use today have been used for a very long time. It's just we didn't have the technology to harvest them in large amounts so they were to expensive to use in the common ways we do today. So a lot of times if anyone did come up with something it was simply a novel idea that wasn't very business practical.

Anyway here is a quick snip from an article on oil drilling.

The 4th-century Chinese drilled oil wells 800 feet deep. They used bamboo poles with drill bits attached to the ends. They eventually began using bamboo for building networks of oil pipelines. Oil was used primarily for making salt from their salt springs. Japan used similar techniques for harvesting natural gas. Petroleum, plentiful in the Near East, produced tar, kerosene and weaponry. Persians and Arabs of the 8th century drilled petroleum wells, creating a precursor to today's petroleum industry.

Reply #112 Top

What? Oil as a resource in the vanilla game? You gotta be kiddin'. :(O  Seriously...get real guys.

Reply #113 Top

Quoting Tormy-, reply 112
What? Oil as a resource in the vanilla game? You gotta be kiddin'.  Seriously...get real guys.

It's not in beta currently and no word from Devs either way as far as I know. But why such a strong reaction against it? It's been used for centuries it's not anything new. It just wasn't used to make plastics or in modern day machinery. But it was used a fuel source for things, as ammunition in siege weapons, paved streets, and etc.

In Europe there really wasn't any easy access oil but in the middle east and eastern Asia they built oil drills centuries before the Europeans. And they used it quite a bit during medieval times for various things. Once again it was a case of using what you have available. For example native Americans didn't have houses until the Spanish brought them overall we think it common to see them riding horses even though they never used them until Europeans arrived with horses.

 

 

Reply #114 Top

Quoting Tasunke, reply 105
So like ... 0.5 on plains and tundra for Fallen, 2x for Trogs on Desert, 2x for Urxen on Swamps, 2x for plains on humans, and 1x for tundra-humans? and 1x for Trog swamp, and 1x for Urxen desert?

Or perhaps for Trogs 2x desert, 1x plains, 0.5 swamps and tundra

Urxen 2x swamp, 1x plains, 0.5 desert and tundra

Humans 2x plain, 1x tundra, 0.5 desert and swamps

Over time, lots of things become possible. i don't know what would be in the shipping game because it'll take a lot of play testing and a lot of AI time to really get the hang of that.

But I like the idea.