I realise DRM is just how necessary it is now days to stop Jow Blow and his community of active pirates. But then again DRM still makes me uncomfortable in a way, mainly for this reason;

People who steal the game dont get restrictions on their pirated game like those who buy their games. As is having to be online to play, having to have the latest patch to play, having NO LAN SUPPORT as in the case of some games. Slow load times, imputting a password every time you play. 

Now this wouldnt be a worry if it stopped piracy, but it does not completely do that. However any step is a good step and there are some ways to ensure the pirates have such a difficult time making the game work that they cant just call themselves bumbling Jow Blow anymore. 

Froggy is right, the only way pirates will thrive is if they have thier own version of steam/impulse in the future. My gripe with that is these guys are making so much money with advertisements/donations and viruses that its not to much of a stretch to see organised internet crime doing so soon. 

The only way to stop it is to act early without alienating the Jow Blows of the world who still think piracy is just fine. Not so that you just earn the money now off all the game sales you could have had but that you ensure the pirate kings dont get their booty therefore funding further projects. 

Actually no, that's one of those Internet fantasies.  Even now, you can't realistically play through AC2 with any of the "cracks" out there.  The "cracks" were basically demos of "Look, I can demo me playing this game for a few minutes.."

And AC2 is relatively simple.  

Like I said, what if the AI for Elemental required a server? Someone going to rewrite my AI and give that away?

I don't like DRM. I think my opinions on the matter are pretty well known.  But the warez people need to, for starters, get a lot of technical and understand that they're playing with fire.  In an age of ubiquitous Internet access (we're not there yet but we're pretty close) you can lock your stuff down pretty well if you want.

The BEST solution is for people/cultures to respect IP and copyright.  A person who makes a thing has a moral right to decide how that thing is used.  The people who make things will always have an advantage over those who don't make things.

The typical pirate is non-technical beyond knowing how to search binary news groups or use torrents or rshare or whatever.  Ubisoft sales of AC2 and TS7 spiked on the PC versus recent releases. It's not even a close thing and that should send out a wake up call to everyone. 

The main reason for pirating is a combination of "because I can" and a general lack of valuation of non-tangible property. This is particularly a problem outside North America where it's hard to explain how you're hurting something by redistributing a "free" version.

Thats it in a nutshell, I feel that people need to grow into the idea that just cause its out there for the taking you do not just take it. DRMs still a valid policy but it can definitely not help the process of making Jow Blow respect your property. Thats if its not handled properly. 

Currently there is a guy on Deviantart.com 'freely' distributing Stardock's property including Windowblinds [the proggy] and Premium/Master skins.

Every single person here who is a member of this community IS SUFFERING because of his actions - through commercial loss to the very entity that provides this forum for us all.

I would have no qualms [were there the opportunity] to slap him across the FRONT of his knees with a baseball bat [though I am more likely to source a cricket one] and render him permanently disabled.

Probably would dampen his fervor a tad....;)

True. That, and Religion, have been the cause of more Wars in Human History then anything else. In my eyes, Religion is nothing but the Oldest Form of Government on Earth. It's a means of "Control" and to prevent anarchy and chaos from over-taking us as a society. My personal Religious beliefs have varied through-out my life and it's too long to go into for this post. Needless to say, when you look back at various religions around the world, look for clues and old pictures and Repeating Patterns, you'll see that they are all almost the same. Yes they Vary Widely in ideology and execution of ideas, but most major religions all have more or less the same "Moral Compass". When these compasses clash with one another, people fight to the Death.

The Boxer Rebellion in China

The Crusades in Medieval Europe

The exodus in the Bible and the trials of peoples like the Israelites.

All Wars involving Religion or various beliefs. All fought over ideas that don't physically exist. Based on Dogma and steepled behind ceremonies. All of it has cost us Countless of Millions of Lives through-out Human History, and it will never end until All the People of the World practice the same "Religion". Until that day comes, people will always fight and die when religious ideologies clash.

It took one of the major "Scene" groups two weeks to properly emulate the content being streamed by the servers as the "server-side" DRM portion. Cracking the actual Executable was childs play and was done in the first few hours. 

That's a good question. Back in the 40's, 50's and 60's, multiple engines were made by various people that ran on things like Corn Oil, Hydrogen, Electricity....and then the big Oil Companies would find out, offer them BIG MONEY to buy the patent so the person who invented it could never go into business making and selling it. Why did they do this? So they could keep the automotive industry reliable on gasoline which the Oil Companies made.

You'd think some software company would by up the rights for Torrent technology or some other pirate system and then use them them-selves to make money.

Eventually as we progress farther and farther into the Digital Domain I think future systems like Cloud gaming will kill Piracy. The big draw for the average gamer when it comes to piracy is that they can play (more or less) anything they want any time they want. They find it, download it, play it. If they like it they might keep it or they might even go out and buy it. If they don't like it it's deleted within an hour or two after trying it out.

How many times have you spent $50-$60 bucks on a game, just to play it for a couple hours and to realize it SUCKS? That doesn't happen to pirates and torrenters. If they don't like a game it's no big loss as they didn't pay for it anyway.

One of the major companies should make a "download" system, maybe base it off cloud gaming so the files are kept on company servers yet giving customers access to them. Then they rent "time" on the server or a "certain number of full game downloads for a set price". Imagine being able to download any 5 games you want, ANY FIVE GAMES ON THE MARKET, for $50. Not $50 a game. How many more people would Pay for a service like that instead of paying $50 per game? I WOULD!!!!

The companies don't do this because they are GREEDY. Why give away 5 of something for $50 when you can sell All 5 for $50 a piece? The companies won't adjust to a business model like that unless they can control whether or not the customers have Permanent Access to the game files, I.E. having their own copy of a game. This is why when "Cloud Gaming" Really Works it will be so successful. At that point the companies will be able to adjust the flow of information I.E. game files, so that their customers can play them but not have to keep them on their hard drives.

The Music industry adapted by lowering prices and offering the ability to buy songs on-line and it has THRIVED ever since. So much so that most music stores that sell CD's are slowing being put out of business by on-line competition. If the game industry adapts like the music industry, they'll thrive. If they don't adapt, Movie and Video game makers will keep lobbying Congress who will pass more and more "Laws" until everything you do is monitored so that No PIRACY can happen without the person being caught who's doing it. Then it will stop everywhere but on private networks until Law Enforcement starts kicking in doors and shutting them down as well.

I don't want to argue with you chief, but I can point you at a "server emulation crack" and "pirated download of AC2". There's plenty of posts by people in the topic saying it works just fine.

I'm sure what you said about the early cracks being demo's is true, but they do have a Real Working crack now. I've seen the cracked version of Settlers 7 in action at a friends house. He offered me a copy but I wasn't interested as I already bought it. He shook his head at me....and I shook my head at him right back...then we both laughed because we've been friends a long time and just don't agree on some things. That doesn't stop us from being friends, and it also doesn't stop me from warning him "Some day you're gonna get busted for this shit and I won't be there to bail you out".

I know Settlers 7 uses the same server side DRM as AC2. I've seen the Settlers 7 pirated/cracked copy in action first hand. I haven't seen a full working cracked copy of AC2 first hand, but seeing pages and pages of comments on sites like Newzbin made by people who have downloaded and played it leads me to believe they honestly got it "cracked" now, including a copy of the server side files.

If you want the links to the posts and pages I'll PM them to you. No need to post them here as we all know it will tempt people to try to get them. That and I don't want to be banned . If you want the links though just say so and you'll be able to read what I read for your-self.

The rest of your reply is quite true as well I believe, but, I wanted to touch on those four points.

1. They'd get a legit copy and figure out how to copy in the incoming information from the servers. I'm guessing that's how they did it with AC2. As I've said, I've seen first hand a fully working and cracked copy of TS7. It even included the extra add-ons and castle pieces with unlimited gold to use them. As far as I know part of the same server-side DRM was used in TS7 as was AC2.

2. That would depend on your definition of a "typical pirate". The people behind the scenes, the top leaders of the "Scene Groups" are all college students or even industry insiders and veterans of game companies who have been burned by one employer or another. These people are The Source of real game piracy. Get rid of them and you'll see there won't be any new cracked games for the "Joe Blow Pirate" to download. I'm guessing your idea of a "typical pirate" would be what I call a "Joe Blow Pirate". The normal people who wouldn't know how to write a cracked exe if they had to too save their own lives.

3. I agree, but, I also think that's hoping for a "Perfect World" scenario. It will never happen until we as a species evolve above wanting more then our fellow men. Humans are greedy by nature. It's instinctual. If your neighbor has food, you want to have more food then him. If he has a nice car, you want one that's nicer. If he has a lot of money or power, you'll want more money and power then he has. Sadly this is how most people think and it's not going to change any time soon. In a Utopian Society though, no-one would ever steal anything and we'd all be able to sleep at night with our front doors wide open and unlocked.

4. I agree here as well. People tend to not respect intellectual Property as it's not Hard, Physical, Property. Not until it's burnt on a disk and sold in a store. Then to those people it becomes "more real" as it were. I think the main reason for Game Piracy though is simple greed. Games are expensive. Games are also a "luxury item" and not a survival need. As such, in a hard economy like ours is now, people can't bring them-selves to be able to save up money or buy a game when they need to use that money to pay bills or put food on the table. At that point, even a more or less Honest person might consider downloading a game or two. In their eyes they might think "Hey, I work hard. I bust my ass all day in the hot sun to pay all my bills and I never have any money left over. I deserve a free "treat" every now and then. Who will know?" .....and so they download a game to play. Sadly their moral compass doesn't see that as hurting anyone but a nameless corporation. They don't see the game designers loosing their jobs and going homeless because they can't find any other work.

I just downloaded the Demo Windowblinds you have on WinCustomize.com. I know part of it only works for 30 days then stops working, but it retains "basic" functionality as well right? I'm also using your free version of Fences. I could very easily surf a few pages and find the unlockers to make these into the full versions but I don't. Why? Because I love Stardock's games.

Deviantart is a pretty reputable site though (at least I thought), how come they won't just take the content down and ban the guy?

They will....once their policy violation system is working again.

I'll keep chasing it/them up....;)

Good. Stupid question. What if I draw a picture of Bat-Man. Now everyone knows I didn't invent Bat-Man, nor am I saying I did, but I want to show off the picture I drew. Would I be violating DC's copyright on Bat-Man if I posted it to Deviantart.com?

No.  US Copyright Law includes provisions for 'fair use' and 'fan art' so you'd be OK....;)

"Actually no, that's one of those Internet fantasies.  Even now, you can't realistically play through AC2 with any of the "cracks" out there.  The "cracks" were basically demos of "Look, I can demo me playing this game for a few minutes.." - Frogboy

"It took one of the major "Scene" groups two weeks to properly emulate the content being streamed by the servers as the "server-side" DRM portion. Cracking the actual Executable was childs play and was done in the first few hours. " - Raven X

These are both correct actually. There was a crack out very quickly that allowed someone to play through the first ~5 minutes of the game. After a couple weeks there was a server emulator/packet sniffer that could watch for the secret handshake code that the Ubisoft servers send to legitamate users. After gathering the codes by playing through the game (I think it's a new code for every mission) they could then share the acquired codes which would allow people using the emulator to play through the same portions of the game they did. After a couple days there was a complete code list which allowed the entire game to be playable using the emulator. As far as I know there is still not a cracked executable for the game that allows it to be played for more than a few minutes, but it is playable all the way through via server emulation.



"Like I said, what if the AI for Elemental required a server? Someone going to rewrite my AI and give that away?" - Frogboy

Keeping half the game on corporate servers and only sending the AI results instead of a code to unlock levels would work. Lag would be a major issue for most games but that should work fine for turn based games. My point was more that Assassin's Creed 2 worked at keeping pirates out for some time but also prevented legitimate users from playing.

 

 

There's also the reality that some people genuinely cannot afford to pay for the luxury of art. While this isn't all that common with video games there are plenty of people who could not possibly enrich their lives with any but a minuscule variety of music without pirating it.


Or they could just download whatever happens to be given away. There's plenty of free music/games/documentaries on the internet. One does not have to pirate to remain entertained.

It's been my experience that if people can steal something without fear punishment, that suddenly those things they steal are things they "can't afford" to pay for.

Over the years during these piracy debates the "I can't afford it so I'm not hurting anyone" argument is something I've seen over and over.  And yet, those people tend to have high speed net connections and high end video cards and the such that they could "afford".

Most people who pirate could afford what they pirate. It's just that they subcoconsciously prioritize things they can't steal easily up and then suddenly they don't have the money for things they could easily steal.

Sure, if I've just spent $5k building a mega gaming rig it makes it a lot harder to pay for that $50 game. But I suspect that person could have lived with a $4k gaming rig and suddenly it gets a lot easier to afford that $50 game. But since they can easily steal it, they don't see the purpose of budgeting appropriately.

Amen Frogman... Most financial quibbles amount to poor prioritizing.

*Cough* Substance Abuse *Cough*

Quoted for truth.  If you have the rig to play new games, you have the money to pay for them.

I have a question.

Gene Rodenberry created Star Trek correct?

So Techinically it is his IP correct?

And he is Dead correct?

Now assuming that the above three questions were anwsered as a yes...

Does that mean Star Trek is now a free IP because the person who created it can no longer profit from it?

Or does a company own the IP?

If a company does own the IP, when will the IP considered free?

Now I am not asking this question in a back handed slam at corporations. I am asking because I seriously want to know.

Very True. A money quandary just happened to me the other day when I picked up Alpha Protocol. See, I also wanted Super Mario Galaxy 2, but, I forgot when exactly it was coming out and honestly not paying near as close attention as I should have been like I was with Alpha Protocol.

The only selling factor for me though was the fact that I was too sick to go to the store and pick up a copy of Mario Galaxy 2. I bought AP on-line. I could have waited until the next day and sent my wife to the store to pick up Mario Galaxy 2 for me, but patients is a virtue I severely lack, so I bought AP that night instead. Unfortunately I didn't have the money for both games, so Mario is on the back burner for now, but, I'll pick up Mario Galaxy 2 next month some time when I get some more money, or maybe in two more weeks when I get paid for the last job I did. If I would have planned ahead and saved a bit more, I could have got them both.

Note: I spend way too much money on gaming...lol. Being sick though, you gotta do Something, right? So I game and find small jobs I can do on-line and watch my stocks. If I don't I start going insane.

Star Trek is owned by Paramount Studios, my friend. I believe Gene sold it to them a long time ago but in the contract he retained creative control or something like that.

Alright well then on to the question of when does Paramount lose the sole control of the property?

Because I can get behind the creator having the ip rights till he dies. I can get behind the creator having the rights to sell it off and both he and who he sells it to can profit off it for a reasonable amount of time.

What I cannot get behind is due to the fact that a corporation is not a living entity and therefore not on a restricted lifetime (with the exception of mismanagement) that the property becomes theirs ad infinitum for the rest of existence, or even a time frame that extends beyond the lifetime of a human being.

And just because we don't live in an ideal world doesn't make what we do live in any more right or acceptable just because thats the way it is. Slavery was acceptable but it wasn't right. Woman walking 3 feet behind men is considered acceptable and right in some places, but that doesn't make it right it just means those who have the power are now drunk off it.

An 18 year old boy rapes my daughter. I am going to hunt down that 18 year old boy and put a bullet in him.

But I will not condone the castration of every 18 year old boy on the planet to make sure none can rape my daughter ever again.

And while we are on the subject, when did it ever become acceptable to take it out on others for bad things that happened to you by someone else. If you are seriously going to act like the high ground is screwing me over because of what someone else did it to you is acceptable, but then sit in judgement when I start to think that screwing you over is fair.

And then lets extrapolate a bit further on "if you don't like the methods don't support it."

Fine I don't like the fact that I went to look at possible trading in my car and getting a new used one. The intrest on the 10k I would have had to finance over four years would have come to 8k so I would have paid 18k on 10k borrowed after four years. 

I don't like the fact that a contract now means that I have to follow the letter of it but the corporations write it so they can change it how and when they choose, but I can't.

I don't like the fact that every computer program I buy is leased not owned.

I don't like the fact that I am well aware that my computer Mobo or CPU has a unique signiture that they can use to pry into my private life and find out everything I do on my computer in the privacy of my own home.

So what happens when I choose not to support these thing.....

Well for starters I starve, why, because I have no car, computer, phone, internet, house, or any of the things one needs to function in society. I cannot find a job with no phone or hell even without a computer now a days. I have no place to live because I cannot buy a house or rent an apartment because the "Contracts" I have no choice in. I ceased to be a functioning, useful member of society and starved to death on the streets because I didn't support the methods.

We the consumer are so thouroghly screwed over repeatedly every day that it floors me when you the producers think we should give a damn about the bad things that happen to you. And even if none of us ever screwed you over, you would still shaft us.

Why

Because some profit is never enough profit till it is all the profit. Because you corps don't ever know  when enough is enough. Because IP isn't about innovation anymore it is about locking down a concept so that you can profit over it ad infinitum. And hell look at the fine print of the activision contest. It's written so you can screw over the creators. You don't respect IP anymore than the pirates you just screw them in a legal way so it makes it all better and right huh? It's all about how much you can get. And you have the gall to act like you are justified and wronged when people take the stance that if they can get it for free it is better?

You know the more I read these threads and the more I listen to people like Jafo. the more I realize that the day always on DRM that requires internet happens on all games, I will also become a pirate. Stealing is stealing yes and no matter what it is wrong. But if the rules of the game are already set up to screw your opponent over and cheat. Then fine I roll with the rules of the games. And I mean the real unwritten rules that we really play by, not the fake rules we write down and say we are going to use because we are all decent human beings and we lie to ourselves and others to make ourselves feel better.

Wow this post took on a life of it's own.

In conclusion I do not support piracy. I pay for my stuff because I like people making good stuff and the best way for that to happen is to support those that do. But at the rate corporations are going, I in no way feel sorry for them or their bottom lines. They demand privledges that we normal people are not allowed to have or even expect. And in the long run their behavior is going to turn people like me who try to do the right thing into people who willing choose to do the wrong thing. Not because we want to profit, but because we want to tear the whole corrupt system down.

Well Said. *Applause*

Yeah, that tends to happen A Lot to threads I start for some reason...LoL

It's only your opinion that the 'whole system' is corrupt.

BTW....don't contradict yourself so painfully re the shooting the 18 year old rapist....and...."when did it ever become acceptable to take it out on others for bad things that happened to you by someone else."

The shooting of the rapist, no matter how entertaining and 'apt' is actually illegal....;)

Reality is...if I create something then it is mine....no-one else's...not now, not ever....unless I give it to them, freely or otherwise.

Whether it is visible in the public domain....or hidden away in a vault never to see the light of day....it is still mine.  I made/drew/painted/wrote/composed it.

How the idiot outside world wants to steal my IP...whether by socially agreed-upon 'law' or by theft makes no difference to me....though I am obliged as a member of a/the community to abide by community law [and if I don't like it I need to petition for change].

My first commercial 'IP' dates back to 1972.  If I found tomorrow someone had reproduced/copied my design [it was a 4 bedroom solid brick, split level cathedral ceiling residence in Essendon [Melbourne]  I would have his/her balls.

....and I would win.

Not a problem.

You tear this system down and some system that breeds discontentment just as much due to the nature of discontentment in human beings towards the situations they were born and raised will pop up instead. 

Our current situations are all variations on a theme. My situation says that people screw each other over for gain anyway, but if you both gain, as in you enjoy the game, they enjoy making it (one instance) and you supply them with a living at the same time, then thats what you should do. Another part of me says if someones putting the effort in to create something, you give them whats due, you do not pirate or steal, which is the point of this discussion. 

Actually I don't beleive I was contradicting (while I can see how that could be construed) myself here. Think of my daughter as my IP that someone just stole. I fully support your chasing them down and would give you more rights in protecting it (logic bombing there servers comes to mind) but those rights would stop when they started impacting my legal use of said item.
 

To be honest I hope so, it is yours and you in a civilized society have the rights to it and to defend it. But again up till the point where those of us who are not trodding on your rights start getting adversely affected.

Actually in my 34 years on this earth my current beleif is there should be no such thing as a jail term longer than 10 years. If you do something so heinous against the society that you deserve more than 10 years in jail, I beleive you should just be removed permanently, And no I don't mean life because I see no reason to support someone who has violated the societal covnent,

But that would also require making jail a truly frightening thing that would actually deter people from thinking they were tougher than it. Another point I would not mind seeing.

Well, quite frankly BOTH those options seem like King Pin ways of thinking to me. Considering the character of these sorts of Pirates, they'd be the worst kind of corporate mercenary with almost no discipline and only used for stealing data from OTHER companies.

Not that the King Pin approach isn't favorable or successful, but it would probably only make matters WORSE for consumers and Small Companies.

For everyone else, there's MasterCard (tm) - er, I mean legal battles

OR

Having companies making things like AI servers, where the game has to be constantly connected in order to have a working AI. Or other such things where the hackers would essentially need to create part of the game (likely in their own way) making no money while they are at it, (hopefully, lest they burn in the deepest, darkest pits of despair) in order to present a"fully" pirated copy.

Heck, to me AI online servers sound good ... if on the off-chance that the Multiplayer community happens to grow (legally of course)

which is why Lan should always be allowed, so that those w/o good connections can at least (occasionally) play each other.

Amen, brother...though I have thought all that for 21 years longer.....[but can spell it all better].....;).... JAFOCHECK

The creators of Intellectual Property are the humble farmers. The people that gain from it (whether 3rd party suits or lead/central pirates) are the Knights and Bandits that rough up the peasants for some FOODz (either for the King or themselves).

but seriously, thats what it comes down to. I wish there was more of a difference between protecting Intellectual Property and paying Tithe to talentless Suits.

But then again, the financial systems that the suits will create will always bring them to the top ... in classical Confucian society the merchants are the lowest class (and farmers 2nd highest just below the State government). However, over time those in power begin to owe debt to the merchants ... and eventually you have Merchants and Businessmen (upholders of the system as opposed to creators) being the most powerful and financially successful.

Hence, in spirit, across the board you see "exploitations for profits" being more important than "quality of product." In the gaming world, Kottick's requirements are a perfect example.

It is in fighting that trend, and bringing the focus back to intellectual property ... why I like Stardock and likeminded companies so much

I also rly like that the CEO is also a developer. And a user of his products (or products of the industry in general). I think a nice requirement for suits could be taking part in the intellectual process, as well as having an interest in the Industry "as a consumer."

I mean, not all contributors to Intellectual property need by interested in the Industry as a consumer, but I think the suits certainly should (in Ideal world ofc).

Sort of like how the suits that determine medical insurance laws/ regulations should probably also be practicing doctors (representatives selected by all practicing and legal doctors, with the representatives ALSO being practicing and legal doctors) in my opinion.