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The world of Elemental Beta 1Z

The world of Elemental Beta 1Z

For Beta 1Z we are going to do something different. We are hard-coding it to a particular map so that we can better debug any problems players encounter with it.

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This is the cloth map of beta 1Z. It’s designed with 4 players in mind and is very tiny. But it should let players “play” through the basic game mechanics of Elemental.

I whipped this up in the map editor.  This Summer, players will be able to take a crack at making their own worlds. I hate to say this but I found making the world a bit too fun. It was not really our intention to make the map editor a game unto itself but being able to create maps with quests and naming mountain ranges and forests and such has proven to be a game unto itself.  I made

For fun, I made the Ultima III map:

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More to come…

68,476 views 35 replies
Reply #26 Top

Quoting Tasunke, reply 25
well, probably at least another 7 hours before 1Z is launched, although I wonder if they will choose to delay a further week in order to fix the pacing issues. (and military issues)

I really hope not. Pacing is a #'s game and we testers can help identify those #'s based on play through.

If you want to see how the # of opening allowable moves a SOV gets and its affect on game play, simply edit his/her .xml file. It makes a huge difference and is truly tied to the pace of things.

An example is if I get 1 move per turn, I can't get far before a Hut completes and my Pop grows. On the other side of that is that if I see a GH etc, out in the visible distance (3-4 tiles currently?), I will need to burn X # of turns to get to them but in doing so I advance my town building process (doh, I know) but if I get 3 moves, I get to my GH but have not added a Hut yet... same applies to future research options.

For gathering of Goodie Huts for Gold, Rings of Power and Potions can be accelerated tremendously with even a slight change of say even 2 extra moves per turn.

Given the statement about making the land more FUN, by adding more elements, whatever that may be, how fast they can be collected, or Gold can be accumulated early on will have a huge boon/burden to how many towns can be supported in the opening 25-30 turns.




 

Reply #27 Top

Will random maps have named terrain features as well?

Reply #28 Top

Quoting egable, reply 98

Quoting TheProgress, reply 78Are turns and tiles being used to represent real-world units of measurement? Does 1 tile represent a X meter * Y meter area? Or are they simply "tiles". Same thing for turns: does one turn represent X days, or is it simply a "turn" ?

Establishing some real-world units of measurement will help refine the pacing.

As it stands right now unit movement is about 2 or 3 times too slow (coming from 1G). Huts should take no more than 4 turns, probably even 3.
 

Yes, the scaling is off and needs to somewhat reflect real-world measurements. Based on the amount of space that cities take up, the tiles can be no more than half a mile (a quarter mile would probably be more accurate). In the case where the tiles are half a mile, a unit should be able to move 40 tiles in one turn when not exploring or maybe 5 tiles in one turn when exploring on open land or 3 tiles in one turn when exploring in forests or 2 tiles when exploring in mountains/hills. This would be assuming that a turn is a day. In that case, children will never grow up in the course of a game.

If your turn is 1 month, then children can grow up eventually. However, in that case, a city needs to fit entirely on a single tile and each tile needs to cover probably 100 square miles (10 miles x 10 miles). Units exploring would be able to explore that area quite well in a one-month turn. Remember, they would have a 1-tile sight around them, so they are really exploring an area 30-miles x 30-miles in that one month, which is probably reasonable. Units not exploring should be able to move 60 tiles per turn to be realistic. They would have something like a 0.1% chance of actually discovering anything that might be in their tile when they are not exploring. In this case, cities could be literally one tile apart and never worry about running into each other.

Now, if you make the assumption that the units hunt for food as they travel, then they should take no upkeep in terms of food and the movement should be reduced because they will spend some time searching for food. If they take food with them, then they must have a limit of no more than maybe 5 days travel from friendly territory before they will be out of food and be required to hunt for food, reducing their rate of travel. So maybe you could give units in friendly territory a bonus to movement due to the fact that they can get food readily and don't have to waste time hunting for it. In neutral or enemy territory, their movement would be slowed because they need to spend time hunting for food.

So, if we assume that hunting is required when traveling, then in neutral or enemy territory, travel is done at 30 tiles per turn using 10-mile square tiles. This would assume about 6 hours of travel time each day devoted to moving. When in friendly territory, you could assume a full 12 hours of travel each day and 60 tiles per turn movement.

Now, you could compromise and do 1-week turns. At 1-week turns, it takes 936 turns for your child to come of age. But, then your number of miles traveled per turn is 140 in friendly territory or 70 in enemy/neutral territory. Each tile could then be a 5-mile square. Movement points would be 28 tiles in friendly territory and 14 tiles in enemy/neutral territory. Of course, at this scale, you still don't have cities showing up on the main map or blocking movement of units. If you make the turns one week, then you need to have the tiles as half a mile and do 280 tiles of movement in friendly territory or 140 tiles of movement in enemy/neutral territory.
 

With tiles so small, movement would appear more analog than digital. That is, movement on the map would appear to flow smoothly and paths would appear more curved. Armies could end up taking up several tiles on the map. You could also make an army camp and it would really appear on the map. When the army goes to 'camp' mode, it would spread out to take up even more tiles because of the extra space required for all the tents and fires. It would be a pretty impressive site.

This is where I am at the moment also regarding scale as well.

The tiles in Elemental are *much* smaller than a game like Civ4. Take for example the "Huge" map for elemental from http://frogboy.impulsedriven.net/article/345012/Elemental_Civilization_4 

With 224X160 tiles you have 35840 tiles in total. Putting that on an earth sized spheroid gives you a value of around 1425 square kilometers per tile. Even stretching credulity a bit and placing that tile-set on a tiny planet like Mercury would give a 209 square kilometer tile. To put that into perspective, Portland, Oregon is 376 square kilometers, with a population of 582,130. Each hut would be taking up more space than downtown Portland. The cities in the above walkthru would take up more area than London (1,706 square km). This is obviously absurd, we cannot work under the assumption that the tiles are that big, or that the map is attempting to model something of greater scope than, say, the state of Oregon (225,026 square km, or 179 "earth-tiles"). Given a more Fantasy-reasonable tile scope of, say, 4 square kilometers. Still ends up with huts that take up enormous amounts of space.

In my humble opinion, the scale has to be even smaller than that to accommodate on-map improvements. This then runs into the same unit movement problems (giving units 40 movement points to keep them from taking years to cross a bridge)... Perhaps the best thing would be to simply make the on-screen expansion of cities a different level of abstraction than the exploration map?

 

1425km houses... :)

Reply #29 Top

1425km houses...

Brad has already brought one of those from all the preorders.

 

Also its quite obvious that most of these games abstract scale.

 

Reply #30 Top

with a population of 582,130. Each hut would be taking up more space than downtown Portland. The cities in the above walkthru would take up more area than London (1,706 square km). This is obviously absurd, we cannot work under the assumption that the tiles are that big, or that the map is attempting to model something of greater scope than, say, the state of Oregon (225,026 square km, or 179 "earth-tiles"). Given a more Fantasy-reasonable tile scope of, say, 4 square kilometers. Still ends up with huts that take up enormous amounts of space.

 

 

 

By that same logic your characters are about the size (or bigger ) than downtown portland too - those must be some BIG miniatures....Just relax and enjoy the game....there is such thing as too much information....

Reply #31 Top

Quoting strager, reply 30

 

By that same logic your characters are about the size (or bigger ) than downtown portland too - those must be some BIG miniatures....Just relax and enjoy the game....there is such thing as too much information....

 

You're right, it's not a vital point :D

Reply #32 Top

Quoting strager, reply 30

By that same logic your characters are about the size (or bigger ) than downtown portland too - those must be some BIG miniatures....

Not exactly, because the miniatures are a representation of a (military) unit that currently is in that tile. The unit doesn't occupy the entire tile, and the miniature itself can represent anything from a single soldier to an entire legion or more. The presence of the miniature/unit doesn't exclude other things from being in that area, like other units of your own faction or those of allies. It only prevents enemy units from entering that tile without a fight.

The hut however (or any other building for that matter) does exclude other buildings from being in that tile, so it can be said to occupy the entire tile. If you assume, as has been done above, that the Huge map is about earth sized, then each sub-tile is nearly 60 by 60 kilometers! That is about twice the size of the entire city of London! Yet in the game, only a single hut (or group of huts, doesn't really matter) can be build there, housing a few dozen people at best.

Even if a sub-tile is a square kilometer in size (which would mean that the Huge map is 448 by 320 kilometers, a bit smaller than Iowa), it's rediculous that only a single building could be build there.

Quoting Yestin, reply 31

You're right, it's not a vital point

Maybe it's not vital, but to me (and I like to think I'm not alone in this) this stuff does matter, because it determines if a world is believable or not.

Reply #33 Top

You can easily change the art asset from a hut to be the art asset of one hundred huts. You just need to modify the art asset and switch it via XML.

Now, will it be harder to see the hut? Maybe. It just depends on how "realistic" you want your cities to look. If you want it to look like your looking down on google maps then thats fine. I personally want to be able to easily recognize things, which requires them to be larger ... just like the Units that you used. A Sovereign is the size of portland because its easy to see and recognize. If you are reducing houses to the size of actual houses, then why not reduce the Sovereign to 1/10 his normal height?

It could be more believable, and then it would make sense as to why it takes so long to move that one turn ... because he is a tiny guy many times smaller than the tile.

I am not being entirely unreasonable however, I think it would be interesting to try the buildings at 1/4 scale, and see if its any better. Not meaning that we would have 4 of each building (split), but that each building(tile) would be 1/4 the size of a map tile, so that 4 houses would be able to fit within 1 tile. (really it would just be a 4x4 grid placed upon each map tile, and the building art assets would be smaller, and the buildings would use the smaller grid).

I don't mind "trying" this, however I think the current style is perfectably acceptable. Especially when we get the full Graphics Engine and we get the "full Zoom" function... although I have no idea how zoom we can get. Theoretically, we can zoom out to get the "one legion" figure on the cloth map, and zoom in to get a giant army, and then zoom further in to see only the part of the army where the Sovereign is standing.

Reply #34 Top

"(really it would just be a 4x4 grid placed upon each map tile, and the building art assets would be smaller, and the buildings would use the smaller grid)."

Don't quote me, but I believe that when the GRID option is ON, each tile is segmented to 2x2, to get 4 small squares, within each building tile already.

Thus, it seems to have been in someones mind, that a Tile is, or will be, 4 distinct areas.

 

Reply #35 Top

So you put in the ogres on purpose? Evil }:)