A View From the Cross » Forum Post by lulapilgrim

The Romans came, killed Rabbi Jesus, killed thousands of other Jewish leaders. They destroyed the land of Israel, destroyed the Temple, and renamed Jerusalem and Israel after Zeus and Israel´s enemies.

And now they want Israel to accept Roman rule forever, top gain salvation from their god?

You are describing the ancient Roman Empire here...the same Roman Empire that persecuted the Church Christ established.

Don't confuse the Roman Empire with the Church.

Christ established His Church for one purpose only, for the salvation of souls. Some Jews understand this and convert.

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Also I know that in order for the Jews, as you say to have a part in God's plan they have to become RCC? Correct?

"The Lord added daily to the Church those who would be saved." Acts of the Apostles 2:47.

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You are describing the ancient Roman Empire here...the same Roman Empire that persecuted the Church Christ established.

Don't confuse the Roman Empire with the Church.

Christ established His Church for one purpose only, for the salvation of souls. Some Jews understand this and convert.

If you don't want to be confused with the Roman Empire, don't act like the Roman Empire.

What's the big difference? The Roman Empire claimed to have authority over Israel, denied Jewish rights to Jerusalem and condemned Jewish independence.

And so do you.

Whether you call your god Jupiter or pretend that you now pray to the god of Israel doesn't matter. It's the actions that count.

All you changed was the name of your god.

I bet if it was up to you you would name the holy land "Palestine", the name the pagan Romans gave it, and not "Eretz Yisrael", the name G-d gave it.

The Roman Empire persecuted the Christian Church when the Church was a Jewish organisation. The Roman Empire persecuted ALL Jewish organisations. Once the Church became Roman and distanced itself from the Jews (and started condemning Jews and Israel) the Roman Empire didn't persecute the Church any more and made it the state religion.

It was only with the Persian and later Muslim invasions that Jews were even allowed back into Jerusalem.

And yes, some Jews were frightened of Rome's power and converted. But that has nothing to do with faith in the saviour and everything to do with the secular power of the Roman Church.

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leauki

The Roman Empire persecuted the Christian Church when the Church was a Jewish organisation.

First, as far as saying "the Christian Church when the Church was a Jewish organization"...while some thought of the early Church as a Jewish sect, it really wasn't. That notion and confusion ended at Christ's death when the Temple Veil was rent in two from top to bottom. Almighty God was making it known that the ceremonies, rites and rituals of the Old Covenant were to be abolished for good. It happened in 70AD.

After the death of Christ, the Jews persecuted the Church because they were threatened by its success in the flourishing of the Christian faith. In the Gospels we read over and over, "for fear of the Jews". The Books of Acts details the actual history of this persecution. This would continue until the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem and the Jews went into dispersion. The Roman Empire didn't want Christianity to spread and persecuted the Church. That's why they went underground into the Catacombs to celebrate Mass. History records that for 300 years, Caesar after Caesar persecuted the Church and 32 Popes from St.Peter in 67AD to Pope Melchiades in 315 AD died the death of martyrdom for the one true Faith of Christ. These Popes werre buried in the catacombs and with Emperor Constantine, the era of persecution ceased.

What I've said is evident from secular history when a search is made regarding the 52 Ceaesars who reigned from Nero to Constantine in contrast to the historic data regarding the 32 Bishops of Rome from St. Peter to St. Melchiades, the Popes of that same period who died for the one true, Catholic and Apostolic Faith of Christ.

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The Roman Empire persecuted ALL Jewish organisations.

In 6AD, the emperor Augustus turned the kingdom of Judah into the Roman province of Judea. Although the Romans treated the Jews cruelly, they allowed the Jews to practice their religion. In 66, the Jews rebelled and overpowered the small Roman army in Jerusalem. By 70, the Roman army retook Jerusalem and the Jews were forced into dispersion. Even though they were scattered, by 90, the Jews had set up academies to promote the study of the Torah of which their various interpretations resulted in the Talmud and Talmudic Judaism.

In 132, after another unsuccessful rebellion, the Romans banned Jews from living in Jerusalem altogether and they were forced to live in other parts of the Mediterranean and the Middle East.

Once the Church became Roman and distanced itself from the Jews (and started condemning Jews and Israel) the Roman Empire didn't persecute the Church any more and made it the state religion.

First, what is freely asserted can be freely denied. So, for accuracy, of the universal Catholic Church, the only one that was and is known as the Roman Church is the one located in the Roman diocese.

Second, for accuracy, the Edict of Milan in 312, did not make Christianity the state religion of the Roman Empire, rather, the Edict decreed that all religious groups in the empire, including Christians, were free to worship as they pleased.

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KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

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Actually Constantine was the real first RCC Pope. Peter was not a pope nor would he, by reading his own epistes, even come close to acknowledging he was any pope. He wrote 2 Epistles. Show me in the scriptures where he outwardly anywhere says he's the Pope or that he was even a leader of the Gentiles. You're just working your way backwards and claiming this succession of Popes which is not proven in the scriptures nor in the very early church fathers. There is absolutely no proof that Peter was a Pope. Even Christ himself did not live like these popes did. He never put himself up high and mighty and neither did he instruct his followers to do so. Servant leadership was his example. The workings of the RCC don't even sound like Christ. Not at all.

Constantine did more to get the RCC started than anybody and his three sons who followed him in the imperial purple were much more positive in furthering the Christian faith than their father had been. So that's your real line right there.

The second son in 341 ordered that pagan sacrifices be abolished in Italy. The third son Constantius commanded that "superstition cease and the folly of sacrifices be abolished" and removed from the Senate the statue of victory which had been placed there by Augustus after the battle of Actium. He ordered Temples closed. Yet of the pagan rites only sacrifices were forbidden and processions, sacred feasts and initiation to the mysteries, still permitted, presumably continued. This means basically that the Pagan Temples (as I've said before) basically put crosses on their buildings mixing both their paganism and Christianity making into what we know now is the RCC.

Under this atmosphere the Christian communities grew rapidly. Read about Julian who was of the family of Constantine. He briefly tried to attempt to restore paganism. He was the last Roman Emperor who openly avowed paganism. Some of the others were far from being Christians in character but all of them outwardly conformed to the faith. Rome was filled with paganism. This again, is the beginning of the RCC. The church was filled with both true believers and those who were in all reality pagan at heart although from looking at the outside (as we are warned about in scripture) you couldn't tell the difference.

It wasn't until the Reformation that the "true" church separated from the Pagan/Christian mix that was called the very powerful RCC. Many things in the RCC today can still be traced to Paganism. Just google the RCC and paganism and see what pops up.

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KFC Kickin For Christ

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So I noticed you didn't answer my question about the 144,000 in Revelation 7 Lula. Any reason for that?

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Actually Constantine was the real first RCC Pope.

This is ppp....pure Protestant poppycock.

Peter was not a pope nor would he, by reading his own epistes, even come close to acknowledging he was any pope. He wrote 2 Epistles. Show me in the scriptures where he outwardly anywhere says he's the Pope or that he was even a leader of the Gentiles. You're just working your way backwards and claiming this succession of Popes which is not proven in the scriptures nor in the very early church fathers.

I cannot show the word "Trinity" in the Holy BIble but it is surely there.....same for St.Peter as first Pope.

The Pope is in the Holy Bible, although he is not called the Pope there. What is found in the Bible is St.Peter as first in honor, first in exercising authority and acting as the leader of the other Apostles.

Christ's Church which is His Mystical Body is a self-perpetuating Divine society established by Christ Himself to carry out the purpose for which it was established, namely the salvation of souls. Christ called His Divine Society His household, St.Matt. 10:25; His flock 26:31; His Church 16:18 and it is referred to 36 times as "the Kingdom". It stands to reason that once Christ ascended into Heaven such a household, flock, kingdom, or Church must have someone in it who ranks first in authority who has the primacy, the first rank. That person was St.Peter who was appointed by CHrist Himself. The continuance of that Divine Society until the end of the world neccessitated successors who continued to exercise that primacy function, later designated by the CC as Popes.

If that's not sufficient to convince you of your misconception, then study St.John 1:42 where you will learn of Simon meeting the Messias for the first time. On that occasion, the only thing recorded that Christ said was His declaration that Simon would be called Kepha, the rock: "thou art Simon the son of Jona; thou shalt be called Kepha, which is by interpretation, Peter." That took place about 2 years before the meeting in Cesarea Philippi, where for the first time in human history, a man, Simon, was the name of a rock, Kepha, to signify his supernatural office, the earthly head of Christ's Church. St.Paul refers to Peter several times as Cephas.

That Simon was selected by Jesus to be the rock foundation of His Church is enforced by the unquestioned fact that "the keys of the kingdom of Heaven" were promised to him on the occasion when his name was changed from Simon to Kepha. The keys signify power, authority, jurisdiction, such as were exercised by every Bishop of Rome from St.Peter to Pope Benedict XVI, now reigning from the Chair of Peter.

In ancient times keys were the hallmark of authority and this is significant. The city to which S.tpeter was given the keys is the heavenly city itself...New Jerusalem.

Also study St.John 21:15-17 when after the Resurrection Jesus appeared to His disciples and asked St.Peter 3 times, Do you love Me? In expiation for his threefold denial, St.Peter gave a threefold affirmation of love. Then Christ, who is the Good Shepherd, gave St.Peter all the authority He earlier promised, "Feed My sheep." Immediately before his denials were predicted St.Peter was told, "Simon, Simon, behold Satan has claimed power over you all, so that he can sift you like wheat; but I (Jesus) have prayed for you (singular), that thy faith may not fail, when after a while thou hast come back to me (after the denials), it is for thee to be for the support of thy brethren. St.Luke 22:31-32. It was St.Peter that Christ prayed would have faith that would not fail and that would be a guide for others, and His prayer being perfectly efficacious was sure to be fulfilled.

.......You're just working your way backwards and claiming this succession of Popes which is not proven in the scriptures nor in the very early church fathers.

So, whether you see it or not, St.Peter was indeed the first Pope and that is found in Sacred Scripture. Whether you admit it or not, that there is a straight line; an unbroken succession of Bishops of Rome (Popes) that runs from St.Peter on to Pope Benedict XVI is also a matter of secular history.

And as far as not proven by the writings, sermons and documents of the very early Church Fathers....there are books on the subject (although most probably not found in Protestant book stores)!

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.......You're just working your way backwards and claiming this succession of Popes which is not proven in the scriptures nor in the very early church fathers.

Lula posts:

So, whether you see it or not, St.Peter was indeed the first Pope and that is found in Sacred Scripture. Whether you admit it or not, that there is a straight line; an unbroken succession of Bishops of Rome (Popes) that runs from St.Peter on to Pope Benedict XVI is also a matter of secular history. And as far as not proven by the writings, sermons and documents of the very early Church Fathers....there are books on the subject (although most probably not found in Protestant book stores)!

And beyond that in considering the Catholic Church and faith from the time of Christ and the Apostles to 313 and onward through today....Let's take what St.Paul teaches in Eph. 4:4-6, "There is one body, and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God, and Father of us all, who is above all, and through all, and in all."

It's undeniable that the Church Christ established in 33AD is the same Church through the time of Constantine through today and will be to the end of the world.

The Catholic Church and the CC only is the "one body" established by Christ, with "one Spirit", "one hope", "one Lord", "one Faith", "one Baptism", "one God, and Father of us all".

It wasn't until the Reformation that the "true" church separated from the Pagan/Christian mix that was called the very powerful RCC.

Then show how the thousands of different sects within Protestantism that have been established since 1517 fit with Ephesians 4:4-6.

I find all these different sects, churches, denominations, what ever you will call them to be doctrinally confused and confounded. It's a puzzle that they all call themselves Christian churches with Christian ministries yet have differing beliefs. Some believe, some don't believe in the omnipotence of God, that God performed miracles, in the inspiration of the Bible, that Jesus is equal to the Father, in the resurrection of Christ, in heaven, in Hell as places of eternal happiness or suffering, baptism is essential to becoming a Christian without which Christ said man cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven...and that's just a few.

None believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist.

Ordinary common sense ought to make you come to the conclusion that churches with such doctrinal discordance cannot be teaching what Christ commanded to be taught. St.Matt. 28:18-20.

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So I noticed you didn't answer my question about the 144,000 in Revelation 7 Lula. Any reason for that?

I'm still waiting for your answers to my questions of posts 178, 228, and 229.

178

kfc posts: Three are related to sin and three are related to righteousness. The first three have to do with his first coming, the second set of three have to do with his second coming. So we would disagree here. Again, because you are backdating everything. 1. to finish the transgression........(to end aposty of the Jews) 2. To make an end of sins.........(atone for sin) 3. to make reconciliation for iniquity....(refers to the death of Christ on the cross which is the basis for Israel's future forgiveness) 1. to bring in everlasting righteousness 2. To seal up the vision and prophecy 3. To anoint the mosty Holy.

Lula posts:

No doubt whatsoever that all six blessings of the 70 weeks have been bestowed by Christ already. C'mon KFC....If not for the Passion how could we realistically ever even hope for these last three?

So how do you figure the last three pertain to Christ's Second Coming?

228

So when does your idea of the 1,000 year physical reign of Christ figure in with Christ's Second Coming at the end of the world?

229

In Apoc, 21:1 St.John sees a new heaven and New Earth appear before him while the first heaven and earth "was gone" DR....your KJV has "passed away". So what does "was gone" or "passed away" mean?

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kfc posts:

and what does "And so all Israel shall be saved..." mean to you in Romans 11:26? I agree that it's only going to be a remnant. No argument from me there.

Lula, in response to your last posting. I have one question. Who are the 144,000 in Revelation 7 and when does this take place?

Romans 11... "All Israel", "the remnant" and the 144,000 are different ways of saying the same thing. It is the perfect number of those who will be saved.

Here's the passage from the Apocalypse 7: 1-8

1 After these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow upon the earth, nor upon the sea, nor on any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun having the seal (sign) of the living God; And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying: “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of them who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of every tribe of the children of Israel.
5 Of the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Reuben, twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Gad, twelve thousand were sealed;
6 of the tribe of Aser, twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Naphthali, twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Manasses, twelve thousand were sealed;
7 of the tribe of Simeon, twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Levi, twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Issachar, twelve thousand were sealed;
8 of the tribe of Zabulon, twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Joseph, twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand were sealed.

Ezechiel 7-9 helps us understand the perfect number and the timing. Ezechiel 7 announces that a judgment is coming upon the Jews for their sins. Chapter 8 describes the Lord God showing Ezechiel the abominations committed in the JerusalemTemple. Chapter 9, tells how the Lord God brought down judgment upon the Jews with the massacre and utter destruction of the city by the Babylonians.

Verses 1-5 we learn that all are ordered to be killed that are not marked with the seal in their foreheads.

1 And he cried in my ears with a loud voice, saying: The visitations of the city are at hand, and every one hath a destroying weapon in his hand. 2 And behold six men came from the way of the upper gate, which looketh to the north: and each one had his weapon of destruction in his hand: and there was one man in the midst of them clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn at his reins: and they went in, and stood by the brazen altar. 3 And the glory of the Lord of Israel went up from the cherub, upon which he was, to the threshold of the house: and he called to the man that was clothed with linen, and had a writer's inkhorn at his loins. 4 And the Lord said to him: Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem: and mark Thau upon the foreheads of the men that sigh, and mourn for all the abominations that are committed in the midst thereof. 5 And to the others he said in my hearing: Go ye after him through the city, and strike: let not your eyes spare, nor be ye moved with pity.

The "mark", "Thau"or Tau, is the last letter in the Hebrew alphabet, and signifies a sign, or a mark, which in ancient Hebrew had the form of a cross. All who bear the mark will escape death. St. Jerome, and other interpreters, conclude that becasue it is the last of the 22 letters of the alphabet it shows the perfection of those who remained to wail and lament the sins of the people. Origen said it was a sign of those who fulfilled the Law.

Who else are these servants with the seal of the living God in this perfect but symbolic number of 144,000?

Logically, then, since St.John is writing in the first century, he borrows from OT to create pictures of the realities in the Church age who, at his time, as well as today, go through trials and tribulations.

Apoc. 7:4-8 is using these same tribes of Israel who fought its enemies to illustrate the symbolic number of the Chruch and its spiritual war against the anti-Christian forces of the world. The Christians are marked with the seal on their forehead with the Sacrament of Baptism where the priest pours water on the forehead and blesses with the sign of the Cross. This is a permanent sealing, an indelible mark.

So, the 144,000 is a symbolic number representing all those who have been baptized, conscripted to do service in the army of God and who have served Him faithfully.

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Second, for accuracy, the Edict of Milan in 312, did not make Christianity the state religion of the Roman Empire, rather, the Edict decreed that all religious groups in the empire, including Christians, were free to worship as they pleased.

And ultimately Christianity (or rather the Roman Church) became the state religion and then persecuted other religions, including Christians who didn't accept Roman power and instead bowed to Jesus alone.

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KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

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And ultimately Christianity (or rather the Roman Church) became the state religion and then persecuted other religions, including Christians who didn't accept Roman power and instead bowed to Jesus alone.

exactly.

So, the 144,000 is a symbolic number representing all those who have been baptized, conscripted to do service in the army of God and who have served Him faithfully.

so God didn't really create the earth in 7 days? Jesus didn't really fast in the wilderness for 40 days? It didn't really rain for 40 days during the flood? Jesus didn't feed the 5,000 men with fishes and loaves? There really wasn't 603,000 Jewish men who left in the Exodus. There really wasn't 70 from Jacob's family who went into Egypt before the Exodus? Abraham really wasn't 99 when he had Isaac? Jesus really wasn't three days in the tomb? Who says this 144,000 is symbolic? You can't pick and choose Lula. Doesn't have any symbolism that I can see. Looks pretty literal to me. It's very clear. Why can't it be?

Romans 11... "All Israel", "the remnant" and the 144,000 are different ways of saying the same thing. It is the perfect number of those who will be saved.

So you're saying what? It's a symbolic number? And that All Israel is the same as the 144,000 (which isn't really a number) that will be saved?

Try again. Not even close.

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so God didn't really create the earth in 7 days? Jesus didn't really fast in the wilderness for 40 days? It didn't really rain for 40 days during the flood? Jesus didn't feed the 5,000 men with fishes and loaves? There really wasn't 603,000 Jewish men who left in the Exodus. There really wasn't 70 from Jacob's family who went into Egypt before the Exodus? Abraham really wasn't 99 when he had Isaac? Jesus really wasn't three days in the tomb? Who says this 144,000 is symbolic?

I'd laugh at this if it weren't so serious. So here we have KFC, the Biblical literalist.....EXCEPT when it comes to Jesus' own EXPLICIT words in St. John 6: 48-57.

Christ our Lord said, "

48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers did eat manna in the desert, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven; that if any man eat of it, he may not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. 52 If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world.

The Jews to whom our Blessed Lord said these words did not understand Him to mean this symboliccally. They understood Him to mean that bread that consisted of His true and living Flesh.

Verses 53, "The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"

The Jews surmised that Christ wasn't speaking symbolically or figuratively, but literally and this must have been correct becasue Christ did not attempt to change their thinking; instead He repeated Himself laying even greater stress on the literal sense of His words.

54 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. 55 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.

56 For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. 57 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him.

Turns out as we read further that Christ did not retract even when many of His disciples scandalized at the literal implications of His words, deserted Him. Christ intended to nourish mankind with the Divine soul-saving food of His own Flesh and Blood, otherwise He would not have been so adamant, so unsweervingly specific.

But how can the faithful actually partake of His true, living Flesh and Blood? With Christ all things are possible.

Here in the synagogue at Capernaum, Christ speaks about a Sacrament that He will institute at the Last Supper. We learn how Christ intended to give His Flesh and Blood for the faithful to eat and drink.

"And while they were at supper, Jesus took bread, and blessed and broke, and gave it to His disciples, "take and eat; THIS IS MY BODY". And taking the cup, He gave thanks and gave it to them saying, "All of you drink of this, FOR THIS IS MY BLOOD". St.Matt. 26:26-28; StMark 14:22-24; St.Luke 22:19-20.

The Church from the time of Christ onward has always taken St.John 6 literally. The earliest and most detailed account of the Eucharist is found in 1Cor. 11:23-27 which predates the Gospels written in Ephesus around 52-55AD. The consecration formula was already in use in the Apostolic liturgy of the early Church and has been in constant use throughout the ages.

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KFC Kickin For Christ

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ALWAYS TURNS INTO THE BREAD OR BAPTISM. John 6 has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

Let's stick to the subject. Trying to switch tactics is getting old. Why is this number any different than any other numbers in scripture. Why do you take literal the ones I mentioned in my last post but yet spiritualize these 144,000? Who are the 144,000 in Rev 7.

Why are they there? When does this take place?

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You can't pick and choose Lula.

John 6 has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

Oh, but it does insofar as you "pick and choose" what is literal and what is symbolic and that's what I'm pointing out.

Who says this 144,000 is symbolic? ....Doesn't have any symbolism that I can see. Looks pretty literal to me. It's very clear.

It's questions like these that I cited St.John 6. in your case, it's the reverse...it's you finding the symbolism in what looks pretty literal to me. When Jesus said, "the bread that I will give is My flesh" is clear to me that He means the bread will be His real flesh.

Why is it symbolic to you? Why is the number 144,000 literal to you? Because your particular Protestant belief teaches it as such and you use the Bible to substantiate these already held views.

You and I look at St. John's Apocalypse (Revelation) very differently. For example, we've been talking about the New or Heavenly Jerusalem which, to Catholics, symbolizes the Church in the glory of Heaven.

The Apocalypse is a theological vision using much symbolism throughout to depict "what is" for us, that would be past and present history and "what is to take place hereafter" ....the last age of the world.

St.John is describing the great struggle between good and evil and under the Lordship of Christ which is acknowledged and extolled in His Church, the new people of God, who like their Lord, suffer in this present world at the forces of evil. St.John tells the end...the final outcome has already been revealed by Christ's Resurrection and Ascension and the ground is being laid for it all through the course of history by the holiness, good works, faithfulness, perseverance, and suffering of the just. Christ's definitive victory will come at the end and the Church (which includes the 7,000 faithful Jews of the OT, as well as the 144,000 faithful servants (symbolic number meaning all those who repent and converted from the time of Christ's First Coming until the end of the world at His Second Coming), will be raised on high in new heavens and a new earth where there will be no more mourning or pain, 21:4 and where there will be room for all those who choose to repent 16:11.

Who are the 144,000 in Rev 7.

Why are they there? When does this take place?

I've already answered.... the 144,000 is a symbolic number (meaning the complete number) of those "servants" who have been sealed (Baptized) and served God faithfully.

In Apocalypse 1-3 there was an emphasis on the evil and potential apostasy in the churches coupled with Christ's solemn warnings for them to repent. In Apoc. 4-6, there was an emphasis on the rise of evil from the non-Christian world followed by God's timely judgments against it. The emphasis on warnings and judgments is now temporarily suspended in Apoc. 7, and replaced with a detailed enumeration of God's elect and their eventual entrance into Heaven. Remember that St.John is seeing a vision and this interlude helps St. John (and his readers) to be encouraged and consoled.

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When does this take place?

The 144,000 (complete number of those who are sealed has been taking place ever since CHrist's Death, Resurrection and Ascension.

St.John is detailing God's salvation program. Look back at the passage at the mention of the "trees" as being protected from the 4 destructive winds. This demonstrates God's care extends to the minutest detail of life. As a result no one who seeks salvation shall be lost. All will be counted and the number of them is so sure, so unchangeable so exact that it can be symbolized as 144,000 yet know that the number of the saved will be much larger than that.

Implied in this precision is that as soon as the last person is saved, then the world will end. Check out 6:9-10, when the souls were crying out to God for vengeance, the earth exists as long as it does only for the purpose of bringing the number of "servants" to fruition, and Almighty God will not allow the earth to last one minute longer than He must. 2St.Peter 3:1-9.

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KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

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I've already answered.... the 144,000 is a symbolic number (meaning the complete number) of those "servants" who have been sealed (Baptized) and served God faithfully.

It's not Lula. You can't just say "it's symbolic" for all those saved since the days of Christ. Makes no sense. There's been way more than 144,000 saved. No. It's very clear. It's 144,000 Jews from the 12 tribes sealed for a purpose. It's like you don't have an answer so you just say "it's symbolic" and make up something. You can't do that.

Look at 5:5 "..weep not behold the Lion of the tribe of Judah the root of David has preveailed to open the book...."

Look at 3:7...."he that is true he that has the key of David.....

Look at 3:9...Behold I will make them of the synagogue of Satan which say they are Jews and are not but do lie.."

the language is very clear to be Jewish here and includes Chap 7 when it speaks of the 144,000. They are JEWS Lula. God is NOT done with the Jews. He's now dealing with them here in the endtimes like I keep telling you.

The seal is not baptism as you keep saying. Much is written in scripture about seals. Seal is NEVER used in water baptism in scripture. Never. There's nothing here about baptism (see you always see eucharist or baptism in everything)

"In whom you heard the word of truth the gospel of your salvation in whom also after that you believed you WERE SEALED WITH the HOLY SPIRIT of promise." Eph 1:13

The sealing of the 144,000 is the Holy Spirit. Seals in scripture represented two things. Ownership and protection. Here we see the four angels holding back the four winds of judgment over the earth. Before judgment begins God seals (in their foreheads) the 144,000 to protect them. They are his witnesses to what's about to happen. God has lifted his church out first (like he did Noah before his wrath hit the earth) before he pours out his wrath via the trumpets and bowls. He's about to purge the earth of all that defiles it.

He leaves these 144,000 JEWS as a testimony on earth before judgment hits but they are protected first. He always leaves a witness. Everything involving judgment or justice is to be done with witnessess.

The people John sees after the sealing is called a great multitude (v9). It's the raptured believers taken out of the earth before it's destroyed. It's unlike anything he's ever seen before. He wrote this in about 90-95 AD. How many believers in 95 A.D? Not that many. He was in prison (for his belief) when he wrote this. He's seeing a multitude of believers here in this vision unlike anything he's witnessed on earth in the struggling persecuted church to date. This would be foreign to him. That's why he questions it. The church was very inconsequential really. They were scattered and martyred during his day. All the leaders were dead but a few like him. He was the last Apostle left. He knew nothing about any multitude of believers like this. But yet he's seeing all these believers before a great tribulation was about to hit. So it couldn't have anything to do with 70 A.D. For one thing he wrote this after 70 A.D. For another there wasn't that many believers yet. This has to be at some future date.

These are believers all thru the centuries and the same people that Jesus spoke about when he said this in Matt 24:

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of trumpet and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other."

The 4 corners represent the four points on a compasss. Notice the trumpet and the four winds? Just like John right? This is the rapture Christ is talking about.

Also Paul says the same thing in 1 Thess 4:16-17:

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heven with a shout with the voice of the archangel and with the trump of God and the dead IN CHRIST shall rise first; then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the ari and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

See the trump again? The voice of the archangel? Paul, Christ and John are saying the same exact things.

At the sound of the trumpet God will send his angels to reap the earth. This is when the wheat (believers) and the tares (unbelievers) will be separated. God will take us up (rapture) and he will send his judgment on the earth. But before he does this he seals the 144,000 as a witness on the earth. These Jews will witness to their unbelieving Jews left on earth and so all Israel will be saved.

So no Lula, it's not symbolic but very very easily explained when you put the scriptures together. It's like a puzzle. You can't just read Rev 7 and make it say what you want it to say ignoring the rest of scripture and it has NOTHING to do with John 6. That piece does not fit.

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The "mark", "Thau"or Tau, is the last letter in the Hebrew alphabet, and signifies a sign, or a mark, which in ancient Hebrew had the form of a cross. All who bear the mark will escape death. St. Jerome, and other interpreters, conclude that becasue it is the last of the 22 letters of the alphabet it shows the perfection of those who remained to wail and lament the sins of the people. Origen said it was a sign of those who fulfilled the Law.

I think you are reading too much into a simple text.

The word "taw" means "note" or "character". The letter Taw is simply named after the simplest word that begins with the consonant. Using your logic you can find relevance in the fact that Alef, the first letter, means ox.

The pre-500 BCE Hebrew script was never printed and the letters could look very differently. I know that ancient Taw as an "x".

Note that that script is the same as the Phoenician script. But Ezekiel might have used an Aramaic script anyway.

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There's been way more than 144,000 saved.

Agree. And that's precisely what I said....

St.John is detailing God's salvation program. Look back at the passage at the mention of the "trees" as being protected from the 4 destructive winds. This demonstrates God's care extends to the minutest detail of life. As a result no one who seeks salvation shall be lost. All will be counted and the number of them is so sure, so unchangeable so exact that it can be symbolized as 144,000 yet know that the number of the saved will be much larger than that.

Implied in this precision is that as soon as the last person is saved, then the world will end. Check out 6:9-10, when the souls were crying out to God for vengeance, the earth exists as long as it does only for the purpose of bringing the number of "servants" to fruition, and Almighty God will not allow the earth to last one minute longer than He must. 2St.Peter 3:1-9.

And besides that...the very next passage....verse 9, "After this, I saw a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and tribes and peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne, and in sight of the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands."

It's like you don't have an answer so you just say "it's symbolic"

My answer is 144,000 is symboliclly a complete number and yes, I gave an explanation, twice now.

You can't just read Rev 7 and make it say what you want it to say ignoring the rest of scripture

but very very easily explained when you put the scriptures together.

I have not ignored the rest of Scripture. Carefully read my post 261...

I tied Apoc. 7: 3 with Exechiel 9:1-5.

3 saying: “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of them who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of every tribe of the children of Israel.

Ezechiel 7-9 helps us understand the perfect number and the timing. ........

Verses 1-5 we learn that all are ordered to be killed that are not marked with the seal in their foreheads.

1 And he cried in my ears with a loud voice, saying: The visitations of the city are at hand, and every one hath a destroying weapon in his hand. 2 And behold six men came from the way of the upper gate, which looketh to the north: and each one had his weapon of destruction in his hand: and there was one man in the midst of them clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn at his reins: and they went in, and stood by the brazen altar. 3 And the glory of the Lord of Israel went up from the cherub, upon which he was, to the threshold of the house: and he called to the man that was clothed with linen, and had a writer's inkhorn at his loins. 4 And the Lord said to him: Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem: and mark Thau upon the foreheads of the men that sigh, and mourn for all the abominations that are committed in the midst thereof. 5 And to the others he said in my hearing: Go ye after him through the city, and strike: let not your eyes spare, nor be ye moved with pity.

The "mark", "Thau"or Tau, is the last letter in the Hebrew alphabet, and signifies a sign, or a mark, which in ancient Hebrew had the form of a cross. All who bear the mark will escape death. St. Jerome, and other interpreters, conclude that becasue it is the last of the 22 letters of the alphabet it shows the perfection of those who remained to wail and lament the sins of the people. Origen said it was a sign of those who fulfilled the Law.

the language is very clear to be Jewish here and includes Chap 7 when it speaks of the 144,000. They are JEWS Lula. God is NOT done with the Jews. He's now dealing with them here in the endtimes like I keep telling you.

Yes, they are Jews....Jews who have been sealed on their foreheads with the sign of the Cross.

I agree that Almighty God is not done with the Jews.....sigh....I've said that 3 or 4 times.

I believe what the Gospels teach...that Almighty God has ALWAYS BEEN CALLING THE JEWS to salvation.....first in the OC before Christ and from the time of Christ, now, and until the end of time, in the New Covenant of Christ. Christ instituted the New covenant in His Blood calling together a new people of God made up of Jew and Gentile, making them one, not according to the flesh but in the Spirit. The Apostles were the seed of the New Israel.

You are interpreting Scripture according to your belief in Dispensationalism, Millennialism, Christian Zionism. You imagine the Jews, en masse, are in some kind of holding pattern until the end of the world to accept Christ....even if most of them are long dead before this supposedly takes place!! The entire idea is false and destructive. The Jews are no more privileged than anyone else in the world who has not repented and accepted Christ as God and Savior.

St.Paul teaches that God is still saving a remnant just as He did in the OT when, in like fashion, a majority of the Jews were faithless. To the question has God rejected His people? St.Paul says, "I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal. So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace."

Again, this concerns individual salvation of as many Jews as possible now, "at the present time".....there is no talk of a national revival either then or in the endtimes. None whatsoever and you should stop teaching that.

St.Paul wants us to understand this mystery .....that God is saving a remnant coming out of the mass of unbelievers. How is God still saving Jews from every nation to which they have been scattered? God holds the Jews most dear for the sake of their Father. He does not repent His gift and call of salvation. Such is the witness of the Apostles and their successors. The Jews from the time of Christ are being baptized with the seal of the cross on their forehead and gathered into the One Body of Christ, the Church.

As far as the Jews who are saved, these are the 144,000, these are those who make up "all Israel" and these are the remnant that St.Paul speaks of in Romans 11.

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KFC posts:

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of trumpet and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other."

The 4 corners represent the four points on a compasss. Notice the trumpet and the four winds? Just like John right? This is the rapture Christ is talking about.

Also Paul says the same thing in 1 Thess 4:16-17:

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heven with a shout with the voice of the archangel and with the trump of God and the dead IN CHRIST shall rise first; then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the ari and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

See the trump again? The voice of the archangel? Paul, Christ and John are saying the same exact things.

At the sound of the trumpet God will send his angels to reap the earth. This is when the wheat (believers) and the tares (unbelievers) will be separated. God will take us up (rapture) and he will send his judgment on the earth. But before he does this he seals the 144,000 as a witness on the earth. These Jews will witness to their unbelieving Jews left on earth and so all Israel will be saved.

The Millennium is now....the time is now for the Jews to convert like St. Paul did and to witness to their fellow unbelieving Jews. There is no 1,000 year earthly reign of Our Lord Jesus Christ. The four last things are death, judgment, Heaven or Hell.

So, no KFC. You're erroneously forcing these passages to fit the ideas of Rapturists, Dispensationalists, Millenialists, etc.

By the time these 2 passages take place, the Millennial Church age...the time of grace.... salvation opportunity time is over. It's also over for the earth and all earthly things, history and time. These 2 passages refer to the Last Day, Christ's Second Coming in majesty and glory for the Final Judgment....the Kingdom of God has entered the eternal heavenly New Jerusalem.

How do we know it's over for all mankind, the earth and universe? You quoted St.Matt. 24:30-31. But verse 29 is "But immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will give its light no more, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken."

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The Jews are no more privileged than anyone else in the world who has not repented and accepted Christ as God and Savior.

I disagree.

The Jews have gone through a lot, ESPECIALLY at the hands of the Roman Empire and its Church.

Whatever Jesus was, there was a reason why he was born a Jew.

If Jews were not special in G-d's eyes, how do you explain Jewish survival over the millennia? How do you explain the miracle of Israel's renewed independence? How do you explain the fact that one people in the Middle-East still lives a bronze-age religion? How do you explain the fact that people like KFC feel a duty to support a people from the other side of the world, despite the fact that it would be easier and more politically correct to support those who want to kill them? How do you explain why so many people want to kill the Jews?

How do you explain the fact that terrorists attacking an Indian city take the time to attack a Jewish cultural centre? How do you explain the fact that Jews are news, despite the small size of the Jewish people and the Jewish state? How do you explain the fact that of all the peoples in the Middle-East only the Jews managed to avert being slaughtered by the big powers (the Arabs and Turkey)?

Yes, a lot of it has to do with technology and bravery, but where did Jews get the talents required to create technology and be brave?

The Israeli soldier who gives his life to protect a child is influenced by the same type of power as the terrorist who tries to blow up a kindergarden. It's just two different sources (and almost makes me people in a devil).

But despite all the horrors that other peoples made the Jews go through, Israel is still alive.

In the mean time the Roman Empire, after it became (Roman) Christian, fell apart. In fact the western half fell even faster.

To me this looks like G-d is behind the small, by itself insignificant people.

To you it must look like you cannot explain why the people you believe G-d abandoned still thrive, whereas G-d's Holy Church appears to be a band of child abusers and criminals.

You are looking for G-d? Don't ask a priest who rapes little boys or the organisation that protects him. Ask Shevet Achim, Christians and Jews who organise heart surgery for children from countries neighbouring Israel.

Don't look for advice from rapists in Rome, look for advice from doctors in Jerusalem.

But the idea that G-d is done with Israel is just a sad excuse for anti-Semitism.

What do you think Christianity is about? Raping children and praying for the death of all Jews or helping children and praying for Israel's continued success? It's up to you what you want to believe.

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ula posts:

The Jews are no more privileged than anyone else in the world who has not repented and accepted Christ as God and Savior.

leauki posts:

I disagree.......

If Jews were not special in G-d's eyes,

Leauki,

I'd expect that kind of defense from you had I said "the Jews are no more privileged than anyone else in the world" and left it at that, But I did not. There is a second part to my sentence which frames a very specific point I am making to KFC.

Furthermore, my statement is a summation of the 3 that come before it.

You are interpreting Scripture according to your belief in Dispensationalism, Millennialism, Christian Zionism. You imagine the Jews, en masse, are in some kind of holding pattern until the end of the world to accept Christ....even if most of them are long dead before this supposedly takes place!! The entire idea is false and destructive. The Jews are no more privileged than anyone else in the world who has not repented and accepted Christ as God and Savior.

I'm speaking of the Jews in a theological sense and although you may not understand, my saying, "even if most of them are long dead before this supposedly takes place" indicates my charity and love of Jews.

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I'm speaking of the Jews in a theological sense

There are no "Jews in a theological sense".

and although you may not understand, my saying, "even if most of them are long dead before this supposedly takes place" indicates my charity and love of Jews.

I think your "charity and love of Jews" is well-known.

I don't think I can remember a single posting or comment of yours where you defended Jews (or even a Jew) against non-Jews (or even non-Christians). In everything you write, Jews were always wrong, criminal, unbelieving, evil, wicked, and lost (and replaced by Rome).

There was never a kind word for Israel, the land or the people, and when it comes to the Jewish religion you misrepresent the religion and sometimes deny its existence.

Love of Jews? If this is your idea of love, I wouldn't want to be your friend.

You might be right or wrong, it doesn't matter, but "love of Jews" is not a feature of your position.

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lula posts:

You are interpreting Scripture according to your belief in Dispensationalism, Millennialism, Christian Zionism. You imagine the Jews, en masse, are in some kind of holding pattern until the end of the world to accept Christ....even if most of them are long dead before this supposedly takes place!! The entire idea is false and destructive. The Jews are no more privileged than anyone else in the world who has not repented and accepted Christ as God and Savior.

I'm speaking of the Jews in a theological sense and although you may not understand, my saying, "even if most of them are long dead before this supposedly takes place" indicates my charity and love of Jews.

leauki posts:

There are no "Jews in a theological sense".

OK, saying this shows you don't understand.

But let's continue.

Believe it or not, our human destiny is eternal. This is where the theological sense comes in for Jews, Catholics, non-Catholics, non-believers...in other words for all people since Adam.

Death is the universal, natural and inevitable end for all of us and our eternal destiny is set forth in "the last things", Death, particular Judgment, Heaven or Hell.

The discussion has been focused on Redemption, Salvation and the Endtimes. And we know from Almighty God's revelation through the Sacred Scriptures (OT and NT), the Jews figure in through the Coming of the Messias Christ. So, it can't be denied the Jews and their holy religion, Biblical Judaism, are forever linked to Christ and His holy religion, Christianity.

Christ redeemed all mankind and made possible the salvation of many (including the Jews, Leauki). As opposed to KFC, my point is the Millennium time of our salvation is NOW and will continue until Christ comes again. But in the meantime, death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ.

If a Jew becomes a Catholic does he still remain a Jew is like asking if a Mohammedan becomes a Jew, does he still remain a Mohammedan? If being a Jew means living the Mosaic way of life, the answer is no. Yet, there is a difference between a follower of Mohammed becoming a Jew and a follower of Moses becoming a Catholic. One repudiates Mohammed as his spiritual leader, while the other continues in the faith of Abraham, in his love of Moses and adherance to many of his teachings, pluse the spiritual guidance of Christ. While the convert from the Synagaogue to the Chruch is no longer a Jew in the religious sense of the term, he continues as a Catholic, in his love of the faith of the ancient fathers of old in Israel, seeing in Catholic principles and practices Judaism full-blossomed.

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