A View From the Cross

For Catholics, today is Holy Thursday. The Epistle reading for today comes from the Apostle, St.James 5:13-16 which begins with "Is any of you sad? Let him pray."

 

 

 

Sins per this video (with very sad music to make clear the evil):

 

1. Secular government

Where does Jesus say that secular government are wrong? What if we introduced Hindu prayers at schools? Would that help?

 

2. Atheism

Because we care if other people believe what we want them to believe.

There are no gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell.

I don't believe in hell or devils or other post-Jewish inventions. How evil am I?

Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and and enslaves minds.

Unfortunately it does for so many people.

 

3. "American greed"

Damn people who don't judge others and just trade with them!

In Greed We Trust

I do. Turns out trusting in greed is often more helpful than trusting those who claim to follow G-d.

 

4. Wounds of Sexual Impurity

I am in Ireland. Do we really want to discuss the influence organised Christian religion has on sexual impurity?

 

5. Wounds of contraception

Huh?

 

6. Embryonic stem cell research

The first actual moral dilemma the video points out.

 

7. Cloning

Huh?

 

8. Wounds of addictions

Is drug abuse particularly common among non-Christians or atheists? Didn't know.

 

9. Wounds of child abuse

Really? Oh, it's just soooo difficult not to comment this further.

 

10. Divorce

Women should be forced to stay with a man they don't love.

 

11. Pornography

Name two examples for societies with pornography that work less well than two societies where pornography is strictly forbidden!

 

12. Child trafficking

Again, is this a particular problem among non-Christians or atheists? Incidentally, in many parts of the world religions actively support child marriage.

 

13. Homosexuality

How is this a wound? Because you disagree with it? I find homphobes a wound.

 

14. Suicide

A big problem. Let's add to it by stigmatising gays! How many homosexuals kill themselves because of atheism and how many kill themselves because of intolerant believers? Ask yourself, have you been a force against or for suicide among homosexuals?

 

15. AIDS

Which brings us back to contraception... Christianity is here cause and cure at the same time.

 

16. War

Luckily religion never makes people fight.

 

17. Genocide

If only people listened to preachers more!

 

18. Abortion

Agreed.

 

19. Indifference

But religion can help make you feel better about not caring. For example, you can start hating people because they are gay (and as evil as criminals).

 

The churches were filled after 9-11. Where are those people now?

What could possible have made them abandon religion?

And this this same phenomenom affect all religions or just certain forms of Christianity?

 

 

 

 

Wow. Bad grammar in the Bible. How sad.

I didn't know Jesus was a pederast.

That was common among the Greek population at the time.

Many Jewish laws against homosexuality were probably made up to counter assimilation into the Greek world. Judaism has always formulated laws that make assimilation difficult.

 

I once saw in interview with Gene Simmons, a Jew (don't know if he practices, but he is a very intelligent man) who said that Judaism "is all about assimilation; dress British, think Yiddish."

And, just out of curiosity, how are devils and hell "post-Jewish"? They're described in the Old Testament.

I was talking about Jewish law, not what Jews actually do. There wouldn't be Jewish laws against assimilation if they were not necessary.

Think about why restaurants have "no dog" signs but no "no elephants" signs.

Just consider this: I am speaking English with you as well. If I didn't follow Jewish traditions to some extent, I'd be completely assimilated indeed. I believe Gene Simmons was born in Israel. Part of his family came from Hungary, like mine.

I wouldn't know where the Old Testament (i.e. Hebrew Bible) describes hell. I think Christians took their concept of hell from Arab (i.e. south of Israel) legends and Zoroastrianism.

As for devils, in Judaism "Satan" is an angel who points G-d to evil deeds but he does not cause them, humans do. The character is not seen as evil.

In fact, Judaism doesn't have a concept of "evil". We differentiate between human inclination to be egoistic and the ability and will to follow G-d's law. Eating pork, for a Jew, is against G-d's will, but it is not "evil". The Hebrew word translated as "evil" is "ra3" (Resh Ayin, VERY difficult to pronounce) covers actual evil things as well as the instinct to eat or build a house. The good-vs-evil duality is a Zoroastrian thing.

The exists a Jewish legend about the angel who started a revolt against G-d in heaven and was banished from heaven for it, but it is not part of the Jewish (or Samaritan) religion. The native Kurdish religion follows up with the tale that the angel later saw the wrong and apologised, cried so much that the hell fires were extinguished, and is now back at G-d's side.

And from fictional writings, such as Dante's Inferno.

Leaki you really must read and aquaint yourself with the OT writings.  David certainly believed in evil as did all the prophets. 

in the OT, evil (ra) is a complex term indicating both evil acts and the consequences of these acts.  In the NT the OT concept is further refined.  Human beings are and do "kakos" (evil).  This is because humanity is flawed. This evil suggests an absence of good.   

"Evil spirits" is another name for demons and it is they who instigate the evil behind these evil acts just as God instigates the good in good acts.  The war before us is not a physical one but a spiritual one.  Just because we can't see the spirit world doesn't mean it doesn't exist.  We do see the effects of it.  Just like we see the effects of wind but can't really "see" wind itself.   

God has revealed standards of right and wrong and human government to restrain the expression of evil in society.  God acts to punish evil often by bringing disaster on persons and nations who violate his standards and harm others.  Isaiah 45:7, Jeremiah  18:11, Amos 3:6

I've been using this scripture for Obama lately but it was originally penned by David in the Psalms.  It says:

"Let his days be few and let another take his office."  109:8

*tongue in cheek* God does say we are to pray for our leaders doesn't he? 

Hell in Hebrew is "sheol" and actually means death or grave.  The grave in the OT sense is the place where the dead await final judgment.  The OT speaks of a resurrection for the righteous and the wicked but does not deal with the question of what happens to the individual after death. 

Sheol is used 65 times in the OT. 

"But he knows not that the dead are there and that her guests are in the depths of hell (sheol)."  Proverbs 9:18

Well I think this legend has it's beginnings in the Jewish OT scriptures.  You will see a reference to Lucifer in Isaiah's OT writing 14:12-15 in part it says:

"How you are fallen from heaven O Lucifer son of the morning!  How you were cut down to the ground which did weaken the nations!....Yet you shall be brought down to hell to the sides of the pit." 

As far as a revolt against God goes, Satan means "adversary."  He is the determined enemy of God and of those whom God loves.  We see him as early as Gen 3 in the temptation of Eve corrupting the human rqce.  He appears in Job 1 and also seen as a personal being in 1 Chron 21:1 and Zechariah 3:1,2. 

The NT has much more to say about Him with many other names and descriptive phrases attached to him. 

Um.....Dante got it from Christianity, not the other way around.

I am quite familiar with the writings. David believed in ra3, as I said.

You are assuming that "ra3" is what think of as "evil", but it isn't. In Hebrew the word is used to refer to lots of things, including the urge to eat and the instinct to build a house. 

 

I don't mind what it says in the Christian Bible, but while ra3 is complex it is not the same as evil.

 

I can feel wind, I cannot feel evil spirits.

 

Sheol means grave or abyss. It doesn't mean "hell". The Greek pagan "hades" was just the closest equivalent and hence was used to translate the word. But that doesn't mean that Jews believe in hell or that the Jewish Bible does.

 

Yes, and it never means "hell".

 

Not in Judaism.

Christianity got that from Zoroastrianism.

 

The Hebrew Bible doesn't say that.

 

 

 

So wind is supernatural?

I mean the ideas of eternal fire and torment. What do you mean?

Didn't I say as much?  Yes, sheol and hades are both pretty much the same; one Hebrew one Greek but both basically are God's waiting room type of place.  Gehenna is the real hell; the place of fire and torment. 

Jesus himself associated gehenna with fire that burns eternally, and he stated that fiery punishment has been prepared for the devil and his angels.  Jesus spoke more often of hell than of heaven.  Hell was not created for humanity but for the devil and his angels.  Actually God  acted at great personal cost to freee us from the threat of eternal punishment (John 3:18)

What do you mean? 

Philosophers have pondered the existence of evil for centuries.  Many have felt evil.  I have.  I remember watching the news one day and this soldier was talking about Somolia and how you could actually feel the evil there because it was so thick and eerie.  I've known some who've been to countries who practice witchcraft and voo-doo and say the presence of evil is palpable. If you're making a habit of walking in the spirit you can't help but feel evil when you come across it.  If you can't feel evil, as you say, you can surely see the effects of it right?  We can see evil all around us.  It can be in the form of a look, a gesture, an act.  

 I also believe if you're walking with evil (like walking with the wind) you won't feel it.  It's only when you are opposed to it by going against it (like going against the wind) can you really feel evil.   I'm a runner and the worst time for me to run is when it's really windy.  When I go against the wind not only can I feel its mighty power but it can also restrain me from getting where I need to go efficiently.   When I turn the corner and have the wind against my back, running with it, I actually can feel the heat because I no longer feel the wind anymore and that's when my body temperature rises and I get noticebly hotter.  Interesting isn't it? 

I read the news daily and can see lots of evil in the actions and words of others. 

Sheol is parallel to Hebrew words for "pit" or "hell" so that's why it's sometimes called hell although like I said it's more like a waiting place for the dead not the literal hell (gehenna).  But "Sheol" is used of a place of conscious existence after death in the OT.  According to Job it is an undesireable place for the wicked (Job 24:19) and a refuge for the righteous (Job 14:13). 

Jesus teaching in Luke 16 seems to reflect accurately the OT concept of sheol; it is a place of conscious existence after death, one side of which is occupied by the suffering unrighteous dead separated by a great chasm from the other side peopled by the rightesous dead enjoying their reward.  After the crucifixion the thought is one side is now empty with the other awaiting final judgment. 

Leauki I believe the Hebrew word for adversary is literally Satan.  Can you look that up?  It means a person who opposes or fights against another.  The root is found quite a few times in the OT. 

The idea eventually developed that Satan was the adversary from the OT (Job 1:6-2:7). 

Leauki posts:

Remember that Almighty God is Supreme Good and that at the same time He is Supreme Justice...that's how we know there is a hell.

By the way, God does not send sinners to Hell, they send themselves when they defiantly disobey the will of GOd and then die unrepentant.

God is Good. He gave mankind the power of self-direction which enables him to reach heavenly heights or fall into unfathomable depths.

From Ecclesiastes 15:17-18, "The Lord has set water and fire before thee, stretch forth thy hand to which thou wilt. Before man is life and death, good and evil; that which he shall choose shall be given to him." 

Job asserts the reward of the just in the other life, thus implicitly proclaiming the punishment of the wicked. Joel 3:1-21 and Sophonias 1:3 speak of a Divine universal judgment clearly implying the punishment of the wicked. 

We know there is fire in Hell from what Christ said to the wicked, "Depart from Me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, which was prepared for the devils and his angels." St.Matt. 25:41.

We also know that Hell-fire is hotter in intensity than fire that we have...because it's kindled by the breath of GOd...

"Behold the wrath of the Lord burneth and is heavy to bear, His lips are filled with indignation, and his tongue as a devouring fire. His breath as a torrent overflowing even to the midst of the neck, to destroy the nations unto nothing. "  And another

"Topeth (hell) is prepared from yesterday, deep and wide. the nourishment thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the Lord as a torrent of brimstone kindling it." Isaias 30:27-33.

Evidently there is supposed to be an abominable stench in hell...Is. 3:24, "Instead of a sweet smell, there shall be a stench."

Hell is a horrible and foul place....like a lake of burning brimstone and pitch. "The unbelieving, and the abominable,  and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolators, and all liars shall have their portion in the pool burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." Apoc. 21:8.

"They shall be tormented with fire and brimstone and the smoke of their torments shall ascend up forever and ever; neither have they rest day or night." Apoc. 14:11.

  

 

That is correct.

 

 

From dictionaries:

Hebrew: Sin Tet Nun

שטן

devil, fiend, demon, daemon, deuce 

Sin Tet Nun He (feminine noun)

שטנה

accusation

(from Babylon and Oxford Hebrew Dictionary)

Aramaic*: Samekh** Tet Nun

סטן

to be hostile, devil, adversary

(Hebrew Union College Comprehensive Aramaic Lexicon)

 

*Note that this is rabbinical Aramaic already heavily influenced by Christianity and Zoroastrianism. It is not pre-imperial Aramaic.

**Aramaic Samekh ("s") is the same as Hebrew Sin. Sin is a variation of the letter Shin ("sh"). Aramaic uses Samekh for "s" and Shin for "sh", Hebrew uses Samekh and Sin for "s" and Shin for "sh" and Arabic uses Sin for "s" and Shin for "sh".

 

People who do evil things give off evil "vibes." It's not like demons are walking around looking for someone to inhabit. Besides, not all witchcraft is evil.

I'm not so sure Lula this is speaking of hell.  Why do you think so?  Context doesn't seem to indicate that. 

depends on who you're asking.  According to God all witchcraft is evil and we are to avoid it. 

 

This comes from St. Bonaventure's homily on the vile odors of Hell. He teaches God decreed that Hell is a prison pervaded by horrible stench as a punishment for those who have taken excessive delight in vain things described in Is. 3. He said the stench of Hell is so vile that if it were on earth, that it would cause all that breathed it to die.

 

     

well that's opinion Lula.  Not fact.  He's taking some liberty here. 

He could be right but since he's not been there and back he can't say for sure.  The best picture we have of hell (really Hades) is Luke 16 and nothing is said there about smell. 

I can't seem to see that this scripture is speaking about hell. 

The whole section (v1-26) is about Isaiah predicting further judgments on Jerusalem and Judah.  This prophecy was fulfilled in the Babylonian Captivity.  Has nothing to do with hell unless you wish to say hell on earth for Israel. 

 

 

KFC POSTS:

Good answer.

And from the OT to that of the NT, we find God is the source of all authority, including civil authority. Romans 13 is a very good read.  It starts, 13:1 "Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God."

On this earth, God gave us 3 spheres of authority..the family, the government, and the Church. So, Civil government is an institution or sphere of authority which was instituted by God.

v. 2, "Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of GOd, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves."

and v. 3 sums it up..."for rulers are not to be a terror to good works, but to evil....."

God is the standard for determining what is good and what is evil. And here in Romans we are told as ordained by God civil government's most basic operational mandate is to be a terror to evil works and a source for what is good.

It seems to me that when in 1963, the American government took prayer out of public schools, they were being a terror to good works...and we have been reaping the whirlwind ever since. I wrote a blog on this and so won't belabor it any more than to make this point. I think that part of the video was spot on.

 KFC posts:

and Proverbs 29:2 fits the bill..... "When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; but when a wicked man rules, the people groan." 

 

 

lula posts:

Let's say it's opinion based on common sense. Burning matter, such as animals, takes on a horrible odor doesn't it? Now, how about thousands of souls in the prison of Hell's everlasting torment of fire..."Instead of a sweet smell, there shall be a stench."

No doubt whatsoever that Isaias was predicting that punishment would come upon the Jews for their sins...It seems that Isaias speaks mainly of the pride of their women. And some prophecies have multiple fulfillment....this may be one of them...as it's certainly not only the Jews who sin and are prideful.....anyway, I think St.Bonaventure was right on..the prophecy of Isaias, "there shall be a stench" is thus fulfilled in Hell as well.

 

 

 

Two years ago, I went on a religious retreat, called an "Emmaus Walk"; its a very intense three days, in which you attend talks and meetings dealing with the Christian faith and mission; that's a very narrow, shallow overview. It's actually much more than that. I would rate it as one of the best things I've ever done, and recommend it to anyone who is at least somwhat mature in the faith. It's not for newbies.

At any rate; my first full day there, a Friday (you arrive Thursday evening) I was very disappointed.

I didn't like it, I didn't want to be there. Couldn't wait for Sunday evening, so I could go home.

Part of the problem was sleep; the bunks were comfortable, the cabins were heated; but I just couldn't get to sleep. I was tired and miserable all day Friday, and didn't get much out of it. Had trouble sleeping again, Friday night.

Saturday morning, I awoke feeling sick.

Didn't know why; just very nauseated. It wasn't food poisoning; I was the only one who got sick. I ate a little breakfast, but because of my overall mood, I just wasn't into it. As the talks started for the day, I got violently ill. I mean SICK. I hadn't been that sick in years. Ran to the restroom and threw up probably everything I'd eaten in the last 12 hours. I went back to my cabin to lay down.
They kept coming up to check on me, though; this irritated me further, because I just wanted to sleep off whatever this was. At about noon or so, two guys came up, one of whom was a friend from my church who was working in the kitchen that walk. They'd brought me some 7Up, and asked if I'd mind if they prayed a healing on me. I'm not really into that, but said no, I didn't mind, and sat up on the edge of the bunk.

They laid hands on me, and prayed.

After they finished, Emil, my friend, looked me dead in the eye and said, "You need to know that there are forces at work in the world, that don't want you here. They don't want you to get whatever message you've been brought here to get." I nodded, just kind of agreeing to get them out of there, so I could go back to sleep.

Later, one of the head guys came up to encourage me to try coming back down for the rest of the talks; I did, and when I got there, all of the staff took me into the chapel, laid hands on me and prayed. I felt kind of foolish, really, but I went along with it.

Well, later that night, after lights out, I was in my nice, comfy, warm bunk, saying my bedtime prayers.

It was then that I began to shake.

Violently.

Out of nowhere, I felt a chill. I began to shiver so hard, that my teeth were chattering, and I had to literally hold my jaw shut, because I didn't want anyone else to hear it.

Now, please remember, I was under the covers in a heated cabin, which was even a little warmer than I usually like it. And even though I was chilled to the bone, I still felt warm. That's the only way I can put it.

This went on for sbout, maybe ten seconds, I'd guess. Finally, I whispered, "God, whatever this is, I don't like it. Please take it away." Less than three seconds later, I stopped shaking, and the cold receded completely; I fell asleep very quickly.

That night, I slept like a baby, and felt as refreshed in the morning, as if I'd caught up on all the sleep I'd lost the previous two nights.

To this day, I'm convinced that something--some 'thing' I wasn't even aware of--left me that night.

And whatever it was, it was mad at me when it left, because it shook me the way it did, and chilled me.

That showed me that the war we can't see is real. Very real. Let me say here that it's not like I was granted some kind extraordniary "vision" or understanding, but it has given me a lot of food for thought.

Our modern culture rationalizes, and thereby minimizes, things like spirituality, and the bells and whistles that go with it.

Science has its place, but there's a whole, whole lot more to this old world, than your public schoolteachers, college professors, the movies and TV tell you about.

We've been conditioned by popular culture, to think of demonic possession as Linda Blair in "The Exorcist"; dr amatic, gross and horrifying.

Now, even though possession that blatantly obvious does sometimes happen, as in Jesus casting out the demons from the man wandering in the tombs--and, for a more personal testimony, my church's worship leader has attended two exorcisms of obvious possession, which she will--but doesn't like to--talk about, unless it has to do with a Bible lesson, or something like that.

I think that's relatively rare, however.

I've come to think that possession, more often than not, is much more subtle. And simple. Something which somehow comes in, and curls itself around your soul, and finds ways to keep you from God. There are evil spirits; call them demons, dark angels, whatever. I know they exist.

I felt one leave me.

That may well be but it doesn't answer my question.

Where did Jesus say anything against secular government?