What we are talking about here is a general breakdown in society, ala "A Clockwork Orange". Well I don't think it's that bad yet but that's what it sounds like. As far as the "violent musicians", well I don't believe in censorship and it's more or less a fact that blaming artists for the violence of kids is a bunch of crap.

You know back in the day teachers, even in the public school I went to, were allowed to whack the kids around. I can tell you that it didn't make a damn bit of difference. Violent, bad kids were and are are violent bad kids period. By the time they are in middle school it's too damn late. The thing that made the difference was growing up in a family that had a sense of good moral values that were imparted to the children.

So we just go on making excuses for parents that don't give a shit about their kids.

Yeah Baby! Now you're talking my language!

You speak NSDAP?

Oh My God No Doc! I'm meaning the opposite of that! I quoted WebGizmos but if he really means to sterilize people or not I can't say. I'm guessing he's expressing his frustration at careless baby making machines who don't accept the ramifications of their careless sexual practices.

I'm surely not a Nazi! I love ya Doc but look me straight in the eye and call me a Nazi and I'll show you a Red White and Blue  Blooded American Midwesterner! WE straight on that?

You favor sterilizing people who don't live up to your standards about how to raise children (which may or may not be "good" standards) and you define that as.....?

I believe that if one has to be licensed to drive a car, certainly the same applies to having and raising children.

That's a far cry from sterilizing people who didn't do whoever's standard of a good enough job raising them (children).

You tell me what people who think they have the corner on correct thinking, correct standards and correct actions and are willing to sterilize others who don't agree are.

I know what the bible says about disciplining a child. "Spare the rod and spoil the child.", My version of that is "spare the rod and spoil the little bratt!   I don't think a parent has the right to beat their children, but well done discipline goes a long way!

Why must out of the box thinking always be equated with nazism...socialism or some other ism for that matter? This is exactly why this world is doomed to extinction. Unless someone grows a spine and a huge set of balls in this country/world we will continue to have irresponsible people procreating and contributing nothing to the continuation of the planet other than the continued depletion of already strained resources due to over population. In about 20 years time....provided we last that long...our resources will be scarce...on a scale never seen before...and the soft people living in this country will really have something to complain about when they can't even get a simple thing like a glass of water out the tap.

But noooooo. Everyone has had this soft political correctness crap pounded into their soft little brains to the point that they are incapable of thinking for themselves let alone out of the box thinking. Drastic you say...maybe so...but let me know how drastic is was when you can't find the basics to live anymore like food or water that you take for granted every time you turn the tap or open the fridge.

What's that? You need someone to carry this plan out?  

If you sterilize the lower end of the gene pool, who is going to work at McDonalds?

Ok...you have a point there!

I didn't mention the word. Glad we were speaking about it at the time, so you know how I feel.

It all boils down to "Qui custodiet ipsos Custodiens?" or, "Who guards the Guardians?". In  other words, as you know, power corrupts. You've been the victim of the system so who in that system do YOU trust with your testicles? Literally. If you wish to limit unsupportable births, educate the people.

OK...if unsustainable, they'll die off. Like any population in dysequilibrium. As for "The Leader" with the huge balls? If you have your way, he'll be the only one with them.  

Fine...there some sort of problem. Usually, at this point in a discussion "Social Darwinism" pops it's head up. The fact is, what will be will be. I doubt any single human (never mind a group or nation/race of them) will have the will to deny him/herself anything for the future of the race. We aren't geared that way. Selfishness is the rule.

If the "thinking one's way out of the box" means denial of humanity and adoption of elitist/fascist values, my soft little brain will be staying where it currently resides, thanks. When and if someone tries to take what's mine from my home, I'll defend myself. I won't go out human hunting under the guise of "improving the race".

What's scary is that people don't remember we've had people who claimed, "I'll solve all your problems." and "Blame the people with the hook noses who write differently and dress differently and oh yes, don't believe in our G-d....etc, etc, etc." who give you something to fear or something to hate all in an effort to distract you from the fact they're taking away your freedom while they're making you secure.

Remember:

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men." - Lord Acton

"A government strong enough to give you what you want is strong enough to take all you have." - T. Jefferson.

"Ask not for whom the bell tolls: It tolls for thee." - J. Donne.

Yes...power corrupts...but it doesn't have to. I understand you may be conditioned to think that is always the case...so you just accept that this will always be the case and just rule out that it can be different. And when out of the box thinking comes along you just dismiss it without consideration.

Well...unlike many others I choose to think for myself. Government and anyone working for it has proven time and again they cannot be trusted and are extremely unreliable in carrying out anything that is "for the people" unless they can profit from it...so they never even enter my thinking or consideration as part of any solution. As far as education...it is obvious education has failed miserably so this consideration is a mute point.

And you will die off as well for lack of any action on your part to prevent that. Well...someone has to lead...we have more than enough followers.

This kind of thinking I completely dismiss. You have accepted defeat and will just lie down and die. You cannot or will not consider any alternative outcome because of your conditioning to think otherwise. And yes...unfortunately selfishness seems to be the rule or accepted excuse for doing nothing...again you cannot think outside the box. Some dead guy makes a comment and everyone parrots and chooses to quote it as the rule. Hence we are destined to become extinct.

What about denial of responsibility? Why contain yourself to thinking small...you need to think globally. The ones that don't limit their thinking are already knocking at your door...you just choose to not listen. If you wait for the knock at your door...your to late. Your defense will be short lived at this point...but you gave up a long time ago...so why fight it.

I remember all to well about the previous claims of "I will save you...solve all your problems." But people still allow these kind of people to rise to power. Why? Because they dress nice or look nice...for reasons that make absolutely no sense whatsoever. They never learn. But they sure as hell love quoting dead guys when they need to some rhyme or reason for their thinking. And it just sounds nice and makes them look smart. 

And if you choose to continue to follow someone that makes empty promises or quote someones god or give you a replacement god to believe in then you have learned nothing from those dead guy quotes.

And on it goes...

Like I said before, the next war will be over resources. 

this is one of the many reasons why i own handguns, (then again being retired from law enforcement is another)

Most wars in the past have been over resources... you know, greedy people wanting what it not theirs, and politicians sending young men/women to die for them.  Yet some misguided/misinformed people seem to think war is all about freedom.  Thing is, whose freedom???  The politicians and capitalists freedom to continue robbing us blind??  Or is it a government plot/freedom to cull excess population when they decide too many citizens are using too many resources???

Sadly, war is less about freedom than it is about greed and the self-preservation of the upper echelon.... and anybody who thinks there is something noble or glorious about war needs their fucking head read.

My Dad once hit me and knocked me out right in front of two police officers and they did nothing, and I truly deserved it now that I think about it.

Problem is, if he did that today, they would cuff him and take him off to jail. Parents nowadays are also bound by these stupid rules of society and the legal system that you cannot even discipline your own child without repercussions.  Parents are actually scared to discipline their children because of it in a lot of cases.  Hell, I have even heard of kids turning in their own parents to the authorities for child abuse, when it was nothing more than a spanking that they deserved! 

Yeah, a few years back I spent 8 hours in lockup after locking my (then 13 y/o) step-daughter in to protect her from herself... and others.  Shaunna and I overheard her on a borrowed mobile phone arranging to meet up with a man in his 30's, and at 9.40pm, no good was going to come from that so I deadlocked the doors and any windows she could possibly climb out of.  When she discovered that she couldn't get out she promptly went to her room and called the cops on the mobile phone I'd loaned her.  I was subsequently arrested for kidnapping and unlawful deprivation of liberty and held for 8 hours. 

It didn't matter to the cops that we had overheard her making arrangements for an illegal interlude with a 30 something year old, so had locked her in for her own good... and it didn't matter that the mobile phone I confiscated was technically and legally mine.  It had her SIM card in it... and that HAD to be returned WITH the phone (otherwise it would be useless) or I'd be charged with stealing as well. Now tell me that kind of police/legal attitude is not giving kids a license to do as they please when they please, and bugger the consequences.

I was finally released without charge, but only after I had given an assurances that I never deadlock the doors again (too bad we were having a spate of burglaries in the neighbourhood at the time) and agreed to hand back the (borrowed) phone.  Yeah, right!!!  Things went from bad to worse after that: the license to disobey us was police issued, and at 14 she took off to be with a 28 y/o... and there was nothing we could do (or get done) about it,

Well, mine was not as bad as that, but I sympathize with you starkers. 

well again here in london we have had yet more teen muders, its all good and well talking about issues but its not stopping the violence. i agree with jazzilady that parents should be able to discipline their kids. coz of human rights laws thats now illegal. can we not get back to good old common sense and give teachers authority to discipline as well. i would like our police to be armed and shoot these little bastards who think they are so cool coz they are gangsters

update - ok so maybe shooting em is a wee bit extreme, why dont we deport em to saudi arabia instead   

Always has. Always will. We are a species to whom the word "enough" has a dictionary meaning but no existence in reality.

We all will die. Nothing changes that.

In other words, 'if you agree with me, you're thinking outside the box. If not, you're wrong.' That's circuitous argument. It's also incorrect. "Strong Leader" thinking is hardly outside the box. It was the first form of government in any social group. It's precisely contradictory to your wanting to have people become responsible. It's one way or the other. Responsible people don't need a huge gorilla with a police force. Responsible people try to get to the next stage of society where power, responsibility and education work together.

Quite the opposite. I'm just saying, "Act responsibly or we'll cut your testicles off." isn't the way to go. Making them assume responsibility by indenturing them is. Anything resembling castration is just violence disguised poorly as 'justice'. Education from age zero on isn't violence and therefore is more palatable for me.

We just differ as to means, WG. Patience. We'll get there eventually. You and I won't see it, and maybe it won't happen. The threat of extinction isn't anything more than a justification/rationalization for "The ends justify the means."

They don't.

It's too damn late once the kids are teenagers! By that time about all you can do is put em' in a boot camp or lock em' up. By then teenagers just turn a deaf ear to what parents or teachers or any authority figure says.

The good morals have to be instilled when they are much younger.

As far as the violence and murder go well we all know that a lot of that is the result of drugs. This brings up the question of legalizing drugs. I am in favor of legalizing some drugs. I can't link or quote any particular source off the top of my head but I have seen studies where crime and violence drastically decrease when drugs are taken out of the picture. This won't happen of course because the mentality is that all drugs are bad when in fact they are not. Cigarettes and booze are legal and look at the damage they cause. The health issues alone are enormous.

These problems can be turned around but only through education and the will of people to do right.

Parents have an obligation to instill good moral values in their kids when they are young. Maybe a lot of the parents lack good moral values themselves. In those cases I guess all you can do is lock and load then hope for the best.

Absolutely. Leading by example is the way to go. "As the twig is bent, so groweth the tree."

Absolutely. It's so sad that some people (the majority...or even all) seem to learn on lthrough negative consequences and pain. I (for one) am firmly resolved to open the umbrella before it starts raining.

It's so odd, isn't it Chasbo... We all seem to know what's right, but doing it, for some reason, is beyond us.

If you are faced with immanent death or grievous bodily harm, please do everything you can to survive. EVERYTHING. Then get a really good lawyer. Hey...we don't want anything happening to subscribers errrr....friends....to few around here!

WebGizmos, hear hear! It's freakin awesome to read an opinion of someone who thinks similarly to myself. I do tend to feel alone in my convictions much of the time. I once had a conversation very similar to the one you've written (about my thoughts on how procreating has been deemed to be an inalienable right, irregardless of the societies population or responsibility of the parents, mother, etc ) and the women I was speaking with actually freaked out and started freaking out and yelling about how "there aint no way no goddamned government is gonna tell her what to do with her body". It sounded like it came verbatim out of the latest tea-party gathering. I mean, she was obviously really enraged and emotional about it, but having known the woman for some time, I couldnt help but think that it was more of a pent up rage being misdirected. This conversation came about from a talk about the old system of welfare in CA, where you could continue to add new children to your case. (This is no longer the case here in CA.) I had the gall to say: "Why couldnt we consider asking women who have already proved to not being able to financially afford their current children, to temporarily voluntarily use birth control, at least while they are on the public dole. I asked the question only to provoke some thought and to have the conversation. I have the firm belief that we as a society need to keep the over-population of the planet in the forefront of our thoughts when 'planning families'. As it is now, there is no family planning, we just screw and pop out babies at whim. Or, 'shudder' we believe God will choose for us how many kids to have.

Like you I think many people are so firmly entrenched in ideas that have been fed to us via the media and by opposing political parties in order to gain votes, that they lose the ability to, as you say, 'think outside the box.' Sigh.

Doc, if I ever get flush again I'll subscribe. There I said it. I'll subscribe. Right now, I'm kind of poor. Right now a  subscription  is sheer luxury that I can't afford.

i think we should legalise all drugs and have them regulated and sold in proper establishments, it would also put those nasty drug cartels out of business and impact on the levels of crime. drugs are a fact of life, been there done all them and have moved on. as i recall booze was illegal in the us at one time and didnt stop ppl getting it and criminals profiting from it. well this is my personal opinion and i have always thought it foolish to make drugs illegal and pretend they dont exist

Chasbo: I think of you as a total Community member. I'm truly sorry if by not checking I embarrassed you. It was not my intent to do so, bud. It also has absolutely no impact as to how I think of you. When you can, you will. Cheers and better times to you, mate!

My elder son after getting some education on his 'second seat of learning' threatened to call the child abuse hot line. I then handed him the phone and asked him if he had considered what might happen in the interval between his call and them arriving for a visit. He said something to the effect of  "You mean they don't come right away?".  I answered, "There's one way to find out..." I was smiling when I said that. My eyes weren't.