So you *don't* believe that people that are poor are so because they are either stupid, lazy or more likely both?

If so then you're a pretty rare conservative around these parts. This premise has been stated as *fact* to me by very well respected and visible members of the JU community literally dozens of times. This premise is so endemic to the site that it's just an assumed *fact* and is implicit in literally thousands of replies.

So if you're one of the few that doesn't subscribe to this theory please let me know because I would be happy to be wrong in your case, or in anyone else's case for that matter.

In reality I had never heard this kind of reasoning in my life before coming to these sites. Of course everyone knows that there's probably an occassional person that does fit this description. But to claim that essentially *everyone* that's poor is so either as a matter of choice or due to some character flaw basically allows the demonization of the poor. It also denies the fact that people can end up poor even though they have worked hard their entire lives through no fault of their own.

Being poor is not a choice.

So please tell me that you deny this premise. Nothing would make me happier for you to prove me wrong in any number of cases possible. But even you can't deny that this attitude does not exist and is not very prevalent among conservatives on these sites.

Ha Ha.  Paying for the 'sins of capitalism' - that's brilliant.  Perfection being impossible, it comes down to which 'set of sins' is less onerous in the long run and which offers the greatest opportunity.  Whether the individual has primacy or the state.  I prefer a system that empowers the individual and constrains the state, which is what the DOI & Constitution intended.

If you prefer the state make all your decisions for you, fine, but forcing the state on me against my will is wrong.  And when you run out of enough productive people, the whole socialist experiment will collapse (see SSR, U of).

There was a reason so many came to this country in the first place.  Then, they came 'yearning to breathe free' - now they come 'yearning for the freebies'.

This topic is also a matter of our responsibilities.

Where as I, as an individual am not going to be forced to provide medical care to others who are rich or poor.  Because we all know that it's not the goverments money.. it's our (the citizen's) money, collected by taxes.

Granted that does make me sound "cold" or "unsympathetic", maybe be even like a real "a**hole".  But in this county, freedom should not mandate me to do so.

On the other hand, there are organizations out there called "charities".  These are places that accept money and skills that individuals give to freely.  Even I, have been known to "give"... WHAT I CAN AFFORD... to charities that I deem worthy.  That IS MY RIGHT to give MY money or skills where I choose, but I will not stand idly by and let someone or a goverment steal MY money or skills to give to whomever they choose.

No, I am not rich.  I barely seem to "get by" most of the time... due to my hard work and determination, I seem to at least keep my head above water.  I also, do not expect or feel it is my right to force others to provide for me.

Nor is it a permanent condition, except in your socialist utopia.

As usual, you project, stereotype & generalize to the point of meaninglessness.

Could'nt have said it any better.

Bonus karma for you.

OK so your only claim is that those that are permanently poor are so because of their own choice? So what should we do with these people? What is your solution? Debtor's prison? The work house? Euthanasia?

And if being poor is only temporary then why begrudge assistence to the poor? But of course you don't begrudge such assistence because to do so would seem petty and shallow. But then someone sure does begrudge it because everytime the deficit or debt comes up it's blamed on "entitlements" and of course, wars, tax cuts for the richest Americans and corporate welfare is never mentioned.

How about your views on Social Security and Medicare. Should these be eliminated in your opinion?

So how are France, England, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Italy, Germany, the Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, Finland and on and on and on doing? Because they are all socialist by your definition. That's not to say that any one of these countries are utopia but they all have what you consider to be "socialist" medicine and many other "socialist" programs. I suppose unions are socialist by your definition as well. But all of these countries are in a far better position with their healthcare than we are in the US.

Good luck getting by.

didn't hear anything about jail time but fines yes and the fines are increased each time. part of the point here is that the additional people purchasing health insurance will help to ensure that people don't get their policies dropped when they get sick. everyone needs to be part of the solution.

And there are many places my tax money goes that I don't approve of either. The wars for example. The defense industry for another. Tax cuts for people like Wesley Snipes for a third. But I don't have a choice as to which portion of my taxes I approve of and which I don't. I have to pay them all or face potential jail if I'm really that stupid to force the issue that far.

So if someone is stupid enough to want to go to jail because they insist on not having health insurance *and* they insist on not paying the $675 tax penalty or whatever it is, then I suppose it's technically possible for them to be sent to jail and if so then I think they "earned" it and perhaps it will teach them something. But in all likelihood for an amount like that the IRS would just garnish your wages for a week or two and be done with it. For me that's less than an average days pay. For someone with a minimum wage job it's like two weeks pay. Talk about penny wise and pound foolish.

Discussions like this one always brings me to a point where I wonder whatever happened to the feeling, attitude or thinking that no matter where our family line originated from, no matter what faith or religion we practiced and whatever race we are that once here in this land of opportunities and possibilities we became Americans.

Yes I am somewhat old, not the oldest here but I remember being taught in grade school what it was to be an American, not what it was to be a Democrate or Republican, a Liberal, Conservative or Progressive or from the Left or Right. 

Yes I know that everyone who has replied here is not from the U.S. but we where once a very proud nation that others looked up to.  We have lost our way and the ideals that this country was founded on.  Until we all realize that we are destined to travel down this road.

The land that once was full of opportunities, possibilities and freedoms has turned into the land of commercialism, corporations and profits. 

 What happened?  Does anyone remember what being an American was about?

Not usually, but it will become a viable one soon in your socialist utopia.

Philly, I do indeed.

I come to believe, however, that as with so many things we wake up and realize that so much of what our parents and schools instilled in us was in fact what others wanted us to believe (for their less than pure ends) rather than what was true, and historically accurate.

To a great extent, I'm afraid, we're the products of that indoctrination. We are not wrong in feeling for what America should be, but that should not blind us to what expediency and compromise yield: An America that falls short of that ideal, and it should spur us to thoughts and actions which are consistent with and bring us closer to that ideal.

Yes, well, thank God for socialist precision.

Freedom means the right to be just so.  Spending money on beer & cigarettes is foolish, too, but I'm not about to tell people they can't (especially in Germany).  The degree of disgust in which you hold the values of individual autonomy & self-determination is itself disgusting.

Well I know that I'm probably opening a can of worms here but I can't help myself.

What do you all think about The Health Care Bill?

I believe that we were cheated by the Big Interests (yet again). Someone, please tell me how leaving insurances co's their monopolistic protection, no real competition and Medicare not being able to bargain down the price of medicines is somehow in my interest?

Personally I think it doesn't go far enough. I wanted Universal Health Care. I think keeping the insurance companies in control is bad. The insurance companies should be placed under direct control of the government/people so that this thing is NOT profit motivated. Make no mistake that this system is still profit driven.

What about the death threats to the Dem Congressmen and Women? Put those wacko "Tea Party" people in jail I say. Those Glenn Beck/Fox/Sarah Palin zombies need to be dealt with harshly. I am saying the ones making death threats and throwing bricks through windows and such.

Anyone engaging in terroristic threatening and/or acts should be vigorously prosecuted and then put to work improving the nation's infrastructure. No ass sitting in prison.

How about all those men making judgments about abortions? Hey I got a good idea: Let's let the women decide. I can't remember the last time I got pregnant. The bill removed the government funding for abortion anyway so why do those Glenn Beck/Fox/Sarah Palin people keep talking/bitching about it?

To firm up support (and get money from (directly/indirectly) among the all too pervasive and prevalent angry people who can't figure out that there are no death panels, yet scream to the high heavens about supporting those children.

Here's another idea: Let's get the hell out of Afghanistan and Iraq. Those money pits sure don't help the so called debt now do they? Far as I can see Bin Laden is holed up in Pakistan so why the hell are we still in the wrong countries? Perhaps the cost of the health care bill could be covered by the money we are now spending killing people in the wrong places.

I'll buy that. The basis for intervention is shaky at best. We all know about the lies which got us into that mess. Enough is enough. Why does someone's child have to be maimed, emotionally sickened or killed for oil and that idiocy. Do what's right. Convert to sustainable, non polluting (or minimally polluting) energy sources and to hell with the big money oil and Mid-East despotic regimes.

One final plea: Put Bush, Cheney and Rove in jail for the crimes they committed in the 8 years they were in office.

Had any one of us done anything similar we'd be so far up the river only the salmon would see us and then, only during breeding season. All done for greed...and no shame whatsoever. Quite the opposite: and how much are those without health care paying to keep "Tricky Dick II" alive?

You see, this is where the whole shebang falls flat on its arse.... and nobody would be forced into it if all those who could easily afford it put in a few extra cents on top of every dollar the spend on health insurance.  But that ain't gonna happen, cos the charity just ain't there... not for those poor persons deemed to be stupid and/or lazy.

Well I'm poor, have been all my life!  Didn't matter that I slogged my guts out 14 - 16 hours a day towards the end of my working life to cart rich folks furniture around... I got $290 a week, and sometimes a bonus tip from a customer, cos my effing employer paid the barest minimum that he had to.  He got $70 an hour and sat at home on his lazy fucken arse drinking beer, while I and another guy put in 12 -14 - 16 hours a day and got less than $300 take home a week

Sheesh, there were teenage checkout girls getting more than us... and I had a wife and 2 kids to support.  Why did I put up with it?  Cos there were bugger all jobs around and unemployment was through the roof, so one kept whatever job they had because it had to be better than the dole.... or was it!

So now I'm on a disability pension because my skeletal frame is brittle and riddled with arthritis... because I have limited mobility and suffer chronic pain and just walking can be excruciating...  because I more or less have a permanent headache due to spinal issues.

If there was work that I could do well, I'd do it, but you know what, before I was awarded the pension, most employers would look at me and think I was too crippled, too fat, too slow, too old... not well enough educated, not intelligent enough, not yuppified enough.  They didn't have to say it, but it was written all over their faces... and the people who eventually got the jobs, they were generally kids a quarter of my age and they could pay a quarter of the wage to.  It wasn't for the lack of trying, to get work.... until I broke my back again.  Actually, it was stress fractures... from doing eff all much... just being.

Orright, so how many highly opinionated Americans are gonna call me lazy and or stupid... cos I'm STILL poor????  And how many will say it's all my own stupid fault, begrudge me universal health care, cos I sure as hell can't afford it???  OK, maybe none 'll actually come straight out with it, but I bet my arse some are thinking it... thinking there's something I can do to not be poor any more.  Yeah, right... like they'd know.  I'd invite anyone who thinks so to stand in my shoes for a week or two to see how it feels to be denied opportunity, for one reason or another... and that of course would entail a couple of fucken good beltings all over... so's they really know how I feel/what I gotta endure every day.

@ Mumblefratz  Not too many in this thread have actually made sense regarding health care, in fact, some just came in to engage in a political pissing contest, but I do like your way of thinking here and commend you for your compassion and humanity.

This is kind of funny and sad.  The haves will not convince the have nots of anything.  The left will not convince the right of anything.  The dwindling middle class are doing what they can to stay middle class. 

Where I was born, I've seen 3rd and 4th generations on welefare.  Born into it and go for a piece of it when they get older.  easier than working.

Am I left or right.  I believe a woman should choose if she wants an abortion, why force someone to have another mouth to feed.  Also we should have prayer in school and the pledge of allegiance should have under God back in it. 

I believe people should have medicial care but don't need this piece of crap.  We have 3 different health plans now.  1 that covers the pres. and congress.  1 that covers the military/dependants/retirees and medicare/medicaid.  Why not just cover them under one of those plans instead of making another Government mess?  Paying tons of new people to run it. 

Oh well.

I'm all for individual autonomy & self-determination. Just not to the extent that others should be left to suffer and die just so that I can save a nickel on my taxes.

You might try reading some Locke and Rousseau instead of leaning so heavily on Gordon Gekko.

You're more than welcome, Mumbles, more than welcome.

Now if more people in the world would look beyond self and see the bigger picture.

The necessary implication that folks who disagree with you about how to go about helping others in need means they only think of themselves is insulting and wrong.

I see arguing with you is pointless.  No it in fact doesn't have to be all one way or all the other way.  That is the problem with the US.  Please re-read once again what I actually said!

It's all about BALANCE.......sigh but then why would I expect someone who suggests that a country which encourages some socialist progression in its society is like communist Russia to understand!

the Monk

edit:  Oh and btw.....I imagine with your country going further and further down the shitter you'll be able to use that "There was a reason so many came to this country in the first place......." less and less.  The US may still cling to its "FREEDOM" chant but hmm.......the "COME LIVE THE AMERICAN DREAM" has fallen curiously silent out of the mouths of so many of late! 

Personally, I choose a country where my banks weren't stupid, my goverment does at least care about my "basic" health and I about my neighbor.  I don't need the greatest and the latest.....all I need is to survive.  That's more than most of your countrymen can say.  Time to stop bragging about the US my friend.....the pipedream is over.

edit2: Mumble....I don't know how you do it.  I mean keep coming back for more when it just seems so pointless.  I also commend you on your patience and look forward to reading more of your well-written posts.

Thing is, some tar themselves with that brush, by their own words and simply by refusing to participate in life outside their own egos, wants, needs and desires.  What's more, I am not suggesting how anyone should help/contribute, just that they should when the means are at their disposal.

Ya know, I have bugger all money, as in nothing you'd call spare... it's ALL spoken for, every fortnight.  I was getting $290 p/w around 20 years ago... I'm now getting about $360, a rise of $70, which is hardly keeping pace with inflation/the cost of living, yet I'll still dig into my pockets when the Salvos come knocking on Red Shield day and give what I can... not so with the wealthier residents around here.  Like the Salvo Captain said, they prefer coming to the working class type of home, because when they go to the plush homes with a couple of flash cars in the driveway, 9.9 times out 10 the occupants will refuse to even answer the door, much less donate anything.  In one case, he said, the wealthy owner of a property just around the corner from here set his dogs onto them... 2 dobermans and a wolfhound.

So yeah, if there are some who think I'm calling them selfish, then so be it.  As my dear old grandmother used to say: "If the cap fits, wear it!!!"

Well, as usual the diversion has worked. We're all divided and at each other's throat instead of demanding fair and equitable solutions. I agree with Chasbo, I also agree to a degree with WOM and starkers...and mumblefratz.

I wish we applied the standard we would wish for ourselves to others.

All he is saying is that it's not the role of government but the role of private charity. In other words he's fine with giving of his own choice to help other people but simply objects to being forced to do so. There is certainly some validity to his point.

On the other hand one should be able to express their opinion which is what I'm certain all Starker’s intent was without it being taken as some kind of implicit insult.

I would like to address both the argument that this should be the role of charity *and* the idea of being *forced* to do something by the government. First off charity is all fine and good. But there are two major problems with depending on charity alone. The first one is that charity alone isn't always enough and then what? The second part is that generally to receive charity one must essentially beg. I personally find this somewhat objectionable although there is something to be said for the idea that the rich can afford pride but it's just too expensive for the poor.

Basically I take certain things to be an intrinsic *right*. In a country where CEO's get 100 million dollar (yearly!) bonuses I do believe that certain things should simply be not allowed to exist. In this category I put things that I consider to be a want for the basic necessities of life. I certainly include health care as part of this bundle of basic necessities as a right.

I don't believe that someone should be forced to beg for a *right*. So while charity is fine as far as it goes. It doesn't go far enough in its ability to supply the basic necessities to all that need it and it does require people to get on their knees and beg.

The second idea is the idea of being *forced* to do something by the government and I am no different than anyone else in this regard. I don't like being told what to do any more than anyone else however to me the scale makes a big difference. Some people seem to be taking the principle to the extreme.

Like I mentioned before, who in their right mind would choose to go to jail rather than pay a tax penalty of $675. I mean get real here. If it was $675,000 then that's a different matter. Dependent on your means perhaps even $6,750 might be a different matter. But I guarantee you there is no person in this country to whom going to jail is preferable to paying $675. It really is a matter of degree. Stuff this principle crap, there is a difference between penny wise and pound foolish and that's what I think people are being.

I view taxes in the same manner. The way I see it is that taxes are the price of living in a civilized society. Without a civilized society anyone or any group that was stronger than you could take everything you own including your life at any moment.

Therefore *everything* you have or will ever have in the future is dependent on living in a civilized society. If that civilized society decides by whatever means it makes such decisions that they need to take some portion of what you have for it's own maintenance then you have no complaint whatsoever as long as you're left with at least the basic necessities of life, since remember without civilized society you would in fact have nothing.

Like I said someone that makes anywhere near what I make or more has no legitimate complaint about how much they pay in taxes. Those with the legitimate compliant are far closer to being without the basic necessities of life than anyone in my tax bracket. And that is *fact*, not just my opinion. Everyone complains about taxes, there's nothing more American than that. But taxes have never come close to making a rich person poor. At the very most all taxes at the high end do is to make a rich person slightly less rich. Boo Hoo Hoo! Actually not even that. The most taxes at the high end do is to slow the rate at which the rich get even richer. Boo Hoo Hoo squared!!

Finally, while I will rail against what I call the "politics of greed and selfishness". I really am simply expressing my own opinion and I feel that I have a right to express that opinion without someone automatically assuming that by doing so I am somehow implying that someone else that disagrees with me is *personally* selfish and greedy. I'd like to think I can rail against what I see as *collective* selfishness and greed without someone always *assuming* that I'm applying this to them *personally*.