I would pay $10 for another expansion if... [epic long post]

 

I my best tradition I am writing YAELP - Yet Another Epic Long Post. :grin:  

I would pay for an expansion centered on trade, the black market, and changing the pirates to an economy-oriented  hassle.

It is more than clear that the players are unhappy with the current implementations of the pirates and the black market. While they are not irrelevant as they used to be on entrenchment, they also do not fit well with the game lore and mechanics. To warrant more extensive changes, a USD 10 thank-you for the developers would be in order. As long as the changes are worth it. B)  

Personally, I would like a good number of the following changes, or changes which similarly enhance these areas:

The Black Market

I think the Black Market should have a permanent 'ghost' income of resources, but not endless resources. While the source does not matter, it can be easily explained by corruption and shady deals on the civilian negotiations of the population you are trying to protect.

There would be 3 resources playable on the black market: besides metal and crystal, players would also be allowed to borrow money at interest. 

Borrowing money

Below the buttons to buy metal and crystal, there would be also 2 buttons to borrow and pay money and the value owed. The game would track how much money is owed, and how much is being paid. If the player does not pay a significant part over a few minutes, the black market would give you a mission with a SHORT deadline to pay the owed amount. If the player does not pay, a special pirate raid will attack him (like a hired pirate mission), to get resources from the player. Player will be also penalized with a 2x bounty multiplier, meaning for every 100 spent on bounty against him, 200 would be applied. the penalty would fade over time, 0.1 per minute or something like that. Techs which reduce the value of placed bounty would mitigate this penalty.

Gaming the market

The player should be able to put his own resources on the market. His own prices would be controlled by placing a multiplier in relation to the 'official' black market prices. So, if the black market is selling metal at 500 credits and the player is selling at 0.8, the players crystals would sell for 400. Combined with a non-infinite stock or metal/crystal, that opens up possibilities to make good profit if a player needs to buy some resources but the market is starved.

To purchase from a player, the Black Market screen would be changed to display purchase buttons for each empire and the black market. to the right of the button the amount of offered stock of each would be displayed, the price of the resource, and a up or down arrow to indicate if it is more or less expensive than the reference price.

Ships!

That's a long requested feature. Now that Diplomacy is already going, it seems more reasonable to trade at least some tech. We already have the tech pacts on Diplomacy, why not sell ships? I think it should be restricted to frigates and cruisers though, minus diplomatic cruisers and starbase builders. The rationale for their availability is simple: disgruntled military deserts, taking long the ship with him. When you buy a ship, it's like permanently hiring a mercenary to work with your fleet. Being able to buy ships could be a researcheable tech.

Suggested rules for ship availability:

1)for a ship design to be available on the black market, there must be at least one non-defeated empire of that race;

AND either 2.a or 2.b:

2.a) all non-defeated empires of that race must have already developed the ship design tech, so that it becomes common knowledge;

2.b) at least one non-defeated empire of that race must have the ship design tech for it to be available;

Only with requirements 1) and either 2.a or 2.b a ship design would be available on the black market. It would be mildly more expensive if it is a desing from the players race, and much more expensive if it is a design from another race. Thus, if the last TEC is destroyed, no more TEC ships would be available on the Black Market.

Forthe sake of simplicity it could be an endless well of ships, but it could be capped too, so that the players cannot buy too many ships. One possibility is that the cap for ship availability would grow associated with the number of pirate fleets. So, if the pirates have 3 fleets, the market would have at the max 3 ships of each design available. Once a ship is sold, it would take some time to replenish the ship availability. The simplest method is the same time it takes to construct said ship.

Pirate Raids

The current system is widely criticized; baby-sitting the countdown is a pain, and the raids do not make much sense. The pirate AI needs serious love to have a personality and strategy very different from an empire AI.

Pirate Fleets

I think the pirates should have several 'fleet AIs', one to manage each ongoing fleet/raid. The pirates would start with a single raid fleet/party. Once it is strong enough, it would split in two. The number and strength of raid fleets would compose the 'pirate strength' value. Over time, the pirates would have 2,3,4 or more fleets, and each one would attack a different gravwell and have its own timer. According to the desired final power of pirates, a cap on the number of fleets would be in order - like 10.

Pirate Effects/Skills

Boarding Parties

One cannot call itself a pirate without boarding parties. ARRR! There should be a pirate ship with a 'interruptible, chanelled' skill which would allow them to take over frigates, cruisers and civilian structures. The effect on ships is permanent. On structures is temporary. If a boarding party takes over a civilian structure, it will control it until the ship leaves the gravwell, is destroyed, or another boarding party takes the structure over. The 'boarding party' is only successful if the full chanelling finishes without interruption. If another 'boarding party' skill is cast on either caster or target, both 'boarding parties' skills instantly cancel each other (cooldown ensues).

Scavenge

Pirates should have the ability of 'eating' debris - like the orkulus - but instead of regenerating, they would get resources from the eaten debris, to reach the 'target profit' faster. The rationale is that they go through the wrecks looking for salvageable equipment and other bits and pieces.

Ion Cannons

Pirates are a crafty bunch. If you are outnumbered, you should know how to improve your odds. Ion cannons are great to disable an enemy ship or tactical structure's weapons, to either break through defenses or have a safer getaway (dunno if skills have a firing arc too, but should be able to shoot 360).

Turbo Boost

Pirates should have turbo for 2 reasons: fast close-in for the kill, and fst retreat. This should be an area effect skill for the fleet.

Overridden Civilian Structures

As I suggested in the 'Pirate Dilemma' thread, I think that controlling civilian structures for their own end would be the pirates' primary goal, to disrupt the player's economy/military production ability.

Overriden structures cannot be scuttled.

A lab would count as -1 lab; besides being removed from the lab pool, it gives an additional -1 tech level, for a total loss of 2 tech levels for each lab controlled. 

A trade port / refinery would give a negative resource income. Trade routes could also be broken. Trade ships still go to the trade ports, only to be instantly captured on docking for a further monetary loss.

Frigate/capital ship factories would allow the pirates to build ships from the race, to either fight along the fleet or replenish the black market ship availability faster, with the player's own money. The 'upshot' is that the pirates will not queue endlessly, they will build one at a time. But they will build continuously.

Media hubs would erode culture instead of increasing it, and boost the pirates' strength faster.

Pirate AI

The pirate AI should have improved pathfinding, being aware of the range of the longest weapon of every tactical weapon and path around them, especially (or at least) starbases. They would detour from tactical structures and attack primarily trade/refinery ships and civilian structures. Tactical targets would be picked according to ease of destruction and if a civilian structure is protected by it.

According to the pirate fleet strength, the pirate AI will have a 'target profit' - a minimum value of resources it wants to steal before considering going home. Once the target profit reaches, the pirates may continue to attack if the gravwell is easy enough prey for their attacks, or the fleet may go back to the pirate gravwell if it seems more trouble than it's worth.

If the gravwell being raided has no more civilian targets and their target profit is not yet met, the pirates may choose to switch to another gravwell.

If an overwhelming fleet jumps in the gravwell, the pirates may also choose to simply jump away, as they are not fond of fights to death. They want easy lunch.

Pirates should never ever target a starbase, unless they are on a mission specifically for it. The fleet should be at max strength to accept those missions. 

If more than 50% of the fleet is destroyed, the pirates should flee no matter what and rest on their gravwell to replenish their numbers.

The amount of success the raid had will influence the amount of time the fleet will rest until going into another raid. Highly successful raids will put the moral up, launching raids in a shorter interval, while crushing defeats will demand more time for the pirates to recompose. 

The Pirate Raid Screen

There should be the ability of giving bounties to each pirate fleet, and operating them individually or in concert.

Having several fleets, each with an individual timer, demands a rework of this screen. 

I think pirate missions and raids should be managed on the same screen. 

I think each pirate fleet should be displayed in a line, in a column to the left, each with its own creative name (the game should have a bunch of pirate fleet names to choose from) and countdown. It should be unobstrusive and not large. In this area there would be two buttons: one to place bounty, and another to focus that fleet on the main area to the right.

This is a setup similar to the research and diplomacy screen. If you want to command them against a specific target, you must click on the 'mission' button at the left, beside the 'bounty' button. 

Placing a Bounty

Placing a bounty should mean 'attack anyone but me'. In other words, you will put a bounty for yourself, not against a specific empire. This bounty is placed on a single pirate fleet. You may win one bid but be attacked by another fleet at the same time. 

Pirate bounties would have a minimum reserve value. If no bounty placed against an empire reaches that reserve, the pirates will decide their target on their own. The minimum reserve value will scale with the game time/pirate strength. Also, the pirate AI should know the tactical strength of each gravwell - knowing how many points are available an how many have been used should be enough - and raise the minimum bounty accordingly.

When a Bounty is placed, its value helps to compose the 'target profit' value of the raid upwards, and boosting the pirate fleet stregth up.

Raid Buyout

Once the raid 'red light' goes on, the AI will take into consideration the amount of bounty already placed, and how much it grows in the next seconds. after some 30 seconds, it would enable a 'buyout' button for that fleet. Buying out a raid is supposed to be expensive, like at least doubling the current amount of bounty in a single click on the Buyout button, but then the fleet is hired by you. It's like going to the pirates and saying 'I have an offer you cannot refuse...'. The fleet will wait for a minute, or as long as the mission screen is open, to launch. If the player does not open the mission screen until the 60 secon timeout ends, the pirates choose a target by themselves (not the player which bought their loyalty).

As soon as the buyout is completed (even before the pirates launch), the bounty money starts to deplete every second, as the pirates are being paid. The player can keep feeding bounty to the same pirate fleet though, to keep their loyalty.

Targeted raids a.k.a. Pirate Missions

A Raid Buyout would let the player choose the target, and which kind of mission will be given. Instead of letting the player choose the amount of reward for the attack, pirate fleet strength + gravwell strength will be used to calculate the minimum value to launch against that target, which would also be influenced by the raid type. A plain pirate raid can be selected, but destruction missions would have their cost raised according to the number and type of targets. There would be a 'launch' button to send the pirates against that target at the bottom of the panel.

As the player changes the setting of the mission, the final cost of the mission will be updated continuously, beside the amounty of bounty the player has given to the pirates (which will be going constantly downwards). If the mission value is higher than the available bounty, the launch button stay disabled. The player, after setting the desired mission, would have to raise the bounty until it is greater than the mission cost to be able to launch it. 

Some targets would simply not be available if the selected pirate fleet is not strong enough. Initially only plain traditional pirate raids and destruction attacks on civilian structures would be possible. Targeting tactical structures would only be available if the fleet is somewhat stronger, military ships only if it is very strong, and capital ships would demand an uber-strong fleet.

Placing a large surplus bounty may upgrade the pirate fleet's strength to allow for more raid types. 

Player Mechanics

 

Culture attrition and income

When a gravwell has cultural attrition, i.e. a foreign culture has dominated one phase lane and is touching it, part of its income will be lost, according to the strength of the foreign culture. If the foreign culture is strong enough to actually erode the native culture, a portion of the planet income will be given to the foreign empire.

 

Siege and Boarding Parties

Well, if the pirates can have boarding parties, why can't we? Another of my old suggestions: To make the siege ships less useless, add the boarding parties skill to them. This fit well with the 'Pirattitude' theme of the prposed changes as well.

The tech tree for the siege ships could also be reworked. instead of simply increasing damage, the siege ship should also get sturdier with each tech increment to be able to jump into the fray. 

The 'boarding parties' skill would branch midway from the siege tree.

Occupation vs. Siege Bombing

Siege Bombing should have strong negative modifiers to planet growth. Even if the siege does not completely wipe the population, The attacked player would suffer from drastically reduced planet growth. Siege ships should have yet another research unlockable skill: 'Occupation Infantry'.

Occupying a planet would take more time than siege bombing, but would not have the adverse growth effects. Occupation would also not annihilate the population to 0, instead it would kill much less population. A 100% infantry takeover should leave between 20- 50% of the planet population.  

Siege Bombing would increase a 'fallout' penalty to regrowth, reducing growth by up to 90%, which would slowly fade over time.

For best effects, there should be a way to disable auto-attack planets, since the default attack is siege bombing, or convert all siege weapons to siege skills. capital ships could also be diversified between ships with siege weapons and ships with occupation troops (or both in case of the siege capship).

Final Words

Yeah, I have an ever-growing number of ideas, and not afraid to write. If you folks think those ideas are worth another expansion, chime in! Hope someone reads it fully...

 

 

 

 

 

7,130 views 13 replies
Reply #1 Top

I think it would be far better to move on to Sins 2 or another project entirely at this point.  The engine is starting to show its age, and the multiplayer community is pretty much dead.  They need to step back, look at what worked well and what didn't, and make a new game.  A few things need to be fixed still, but generally Sins Trinity is about as good as the game will get without a major (ie $30-40) expansion.  I'm talking new faction, more planet types, more ships, graphical enhancements, ICO overhaul type of major.  I can't see that being worth the effort at this point.

Reply #2 Top

Quoting lbgsloan, reply 1
I think it would be far better to move on to Sins 2 or another project entirely at this point.  The engine is starting to show its age, and the multiplayer community is pretty much dead.  They need to step back, look at what worked well and what didn't, and make a new game.  A few things need to be fixed still, but generally Sins Trinity is about as good as the game will get without a major (ie $30-40) expansion.  I'm talking new faction, more planet types, more ships, graphical enhancements, ICO overhaul type of major.  I can't see that being worth the effort at this point.

 

 The only way to fix the multiplayer would to COMPLETELY mess with the game, turn it into some COD4 RTS 4x, all RTS with no 4 or even X. This game is intimidatingly complex, and online there are people who know -EXACTLY- what to do at the beginning, there's basically a couple routes that pretty much = the I Win Button with how everything is set up.

 A new faction atm would throw the balance off at the moment when Advent already are a tad weak on the early game for the expansion run lol.

 

 Basically this expansion would be.. Somewhat for the better a few things here and there are abit drastic lol, Honestly its missing the biggest feature Sins needs atm.. A campaign with a story in it =P.

Reply #3 Top

Please tell me, why do you jerk off to pirates so much?  Really, I want to know, because this fascinates me.  I mean, a gigantic post on... pirates?

I mean, do you want this to be Sins of Solar Pirates?

What drives this?  Are you into pirate movies, pirate books, etc?  Did you play with pirate toys as a kid?  I'm actually asking this as a serious question, because there seems to be a lot of people "hung up" on pirates in this game, and I'd just like to understand it and know what's behind it.

Reply #4 Top

The Space Rum is behind it.  Yarr!!!

Reply #5 Top

I agree to almost everything in Brazilian_Joe's post. Another expansion, even one as expensive as the original game, would be great.

Reply #6 Top

 

Please tell me, why do you jerk off to pirates so much?  Really, I want to know, because this fascinates me.  I mean, a gigantic post on... pirates?

I mean, do you want this to be Sins of Solar Pirates?

What drives this?  Are you into pirate movies, pirate books, etc?  Did you play with pirate toys as a kid?  I'm actually asking this as a serious question, because there seems to be a lot of people "hung up" on pirates in this game, and I'd just like to understand it and know what's behind it.

Avast, me hearties! A landlubber making fun of our ways! Let's wipe the deck with his intestines and hang up his skull on the top of the mast fer all his brothers and sisters fearin' an' cowering on our power!

AAARRR!!!!

[disclaimer: quoting is broken on WebKit and has been for ages]

 

Reply #7 Top

I say! How uncivilized. Now hear this! dispatch imperial strikcraft forces. Don't let a single one of those scum escape!

:P

Reply #8 Top

Thank you for the feedback.  There's a few items in there that simply don't fit into the Sins universe, but others would be pretty cool.  I can't say if these suggestions will ever make it into the game, however.  A fair amount of programming work would be required which isn't in the cards.

Reply #9 Top

occupation occupation occupation.

why wipe out the whole poulation and infrastructure of a planet only to rebuild it several minuites later.

it could be easily merged in as a game mechanic and would have huge implications as to improving gameplay.

obviously wiping a planet would be the fastest and most efficiant way of taking a planet over but capturing it would provide a faster economic boost and add another tactical choice when taking planets.

destroying a planet would be fastest but would take longer to gain an economic boost from it. whilst capturing a planet would take longer and be more risky due to needing more non-combat orientated units in your fleet  but would provide a much faster economic boost at a lower setup cost.

i think that this would help remove the current fleet wipe = death scenario whereby wiping the enemys fleet could either provide an opportunity to riskily push for conquest or diversify your fleet and gain a quick economic advatage that would win you the game. the attraction to the eco boost would provide a better chance for the opposing player to formulate a new strategy or attempt an all or nothing kind of play rather than just being doomed full stop as it is now.

the introduction of small scale assaults using capture frigates may help spread forces around the battlefield more. you could skip a few heavily defended planets with a few frigates and capture a few less well defended structures using less frigates than needed to destroy them. as it is at the moment you tend to need to clump your foces into two or three mega fleets to do any real damage. skirmishing with mini capture fleets would allow smaller fleets to be able to do some damage to less well defended planets whilst not being fatally powerfull encouraging you to spread your forces more.

it seems possible to implement, but would be hugely gamechanging. mabe in the sequel. but i like the idea and can only see it bringing positive implications to the game.

Reply #10 Top

we need some kind of mechanic to encourage people to spread their structures around the gravity well more

not sure exactly what. mabe structures captured by capture frigates would be temporarily 'armed' by the units that captured them allowing them to attack and even capture other nearby structures. this could be countered by using your own capture frigates creating a whole new space station warfare mechanic.

you could opt to cluster all your structures together to create a huge complex but risk losing the whole thing to a few capture frigates or make several smaller ones that could be lost and recaptured later.

again a big change but it think it would be cool.

Reply #11 Top

    Sounds as though we have some of the same ideas; cool!  :grin:

    My post is at https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/375601/page/6/#replies  Scroll down to the second from the bottom; it's the super long one!  : )

    The Pirate Tech tree that I mentioned is supposed to be an anti-Pirate Tech tree; I realize that the Pirates already seem to possess their own Tech trees.

    Personally, I'll be happy with a passel of new ships; especially capital ships! 

    I'm still wondering when Sins will come out with a Star Trek Patch; it'd be cool to have the Enterprise in there too! :fuzzy:

Reply #12 Top

    @Restlessmind

    "Make it so Number One!"  Star Trek Next Generations

    "Warp ten Mr. Scott.  Mr. Sulu, plot a course for intercept.  Mr. Checkoff, ready our phasers and arm our photon torpedos; we go to war!"      Star Trek    :fuzzy:

 

Reply #13 Top

There is a mod for star trek out for dl already.Check thru the mod section.