That's generally a sign that the point cost isn't right.  If a talent is always chosen, it needs to be increased in cost, etc. etc.

Whoa. I've double and triple checked, and not a single poster before your reply even hinted that they wanted to remove attributes on the Sovereign - quite the opposite, they seem to all be trying to get you to expand your scope.  That is, to make each selection introduce a completely new game mechanic or significantly change the viable gameplay. You generally do such an awesome job soliciting and considering feedback, it seems really odd that you'd have such a stifling (and unfair!) response to this one.  And no, I wasn't one of the original posters.  Btw, it's pretty hard to come up with good game-changing attribute picks without the main gameplay being further nailed down - it helps to see how play flows to determine what could be fun diversions from that normal flow.

For those who want the MoM magic (spellbook selection) system - I agree that it was the best I've ever seen, and that it was amazing how important the initial tradeoffs between attributes and spell power were and the replayability that system added all by itself.  However, Elemental is clearly going a different direction with the magic.  Instead of 5 (M:tG-stolen, to great measure!) schools of magic whose depth you pick, it seems to be a much broader base of 'types' of magic, each defined completely by a single spellbook.  Let's see how it handles before insisting it has to be just like what has gone before; I think there's a lot they can do with it.  Playing last night, I already like how they handled the shard requirements - it just feels good.  (The instant-learn mechanism seems jarring, though.)

FWIW, I think we'll continue to see strong ideas for this topic through - and after - release:-)

What's the 'Insane' trait entail? I don't want to wait till Thursday to find out!

I'll probably make all of my Sovereigns it, if it's interesting enough.

Here's a couple, so it isn't spam:

T: Stoicism : +X against death/plague/fear (Depending on what there is) to all units with Sovereign

W: Malevolent : -X growth rate in cities

W: Insidious : -X loyalty of troops (if there's a loyalty stat?)

T/W: Theocratic/Aristocratic : -X to the cost of  __________ (I really don't know what kinds of things are in the cities to be build/maintained) An alternative is: -X/+X (respectively) to the matinence costs of cities

Polygamous: Can marry multiple spouses, have more kids to raise as heroes or marry off.  Should have a down side of some negative to spell point regen, since you're using up all your energy being married so much.

Philandering:  More likely to have bastard-offspring-related events occur.  I'd think this would be a positive and negative on its own.  <Insert joke involving the word "Tiger" here.>

I'd also like to see a "I'm feeling lucky" button that would assign you a sovereign with random traits.

It would be great to have a Fertile/Potent trait to accelerate the chance/frequency of birthing children.

Having more talents and weaknesses that modify how a sovereign behaves in combat would be cool to me.

Also, another poster before me mentioned this, but it'd also be nice to see Elemental related Weaknesses/Talents.

I know this isn't related, but I'd love to see the attribute cap raised to 25, btw.

Here are some ideas:

Talents

Swift: Increase to movement /and/ combat Speed.

Brutal: Has a chance to kill fleeing enemies if they retreat from combat.

Master Swordsman: Increases attack rolls and damage slightly.

Deadeye: Increases ranged attack rolls and damage slightly...maybe bonus to sight radius.

Master Of Fire: Bonus to fire spells effects and reduced cost, use of Water magic is weaker.

Master Of Earth: Bonus to blah blah.

Master Of Water: Blah.

Master Of Air: Blah.

Master Of Life: Blah

Master Of Death: Blah

Weaknesses

Slow: Decreased combat speed.

Weak Wrists: Poorer attack/damage rolls in melee.

Bad eyesight: Poorer attack/damage rolls with ranged combat.

Flammable: Penalty when using fire spells, takes extra fire damage.

Hydrophibic: Penalty using water spells, takes extra water damage.

Fear of Death: Blah.

Potent talent allows you to have 2 children (sex is still random)

Dark talent adds a bonus to attack when an enemy is killed

Addicted weakness distracts you (for 1 turn) from your studies every 5 turns

I'm pretty sure it is reduced prestige in a whatever city the sovereign is hanging out in.

I'd like to see traits that enhance a particular line of research reflecting a possible background for the soverign. As opposed to +4 total research. Blacksmiths, temples, walls (as said earlier) millitary organisation, libraries... lost as to how it would be implemented though with the research mechanics the way they are lol.

I agree that static bonuses are way to generic. They are necessary to create different ways to play yes, but I think they should be made as scales not as talens. Then you can add points to increase your gold/food/mana/whatever production or decrease them.

Talents should add something unique to the game. Something that defines your sovereign. There are talents like that now, but they are muddled by all the numeric bonus talents. By making numeric bonuses as scales and adding unique talents you will make sovereign generation much more interesting.

Talents that add a bonus to the sovereign's place of residence (city or army) are bad for two reasons. First, they make a strong insensitive for the sovereign to stay in one place. And this is bad as it limits a player, not gives him a meaningful bonus. Second, they are way too weak. Should I give a bonus to research in one city or should I give my sovereign a new spellbook with spells of awesomeness?  What kind of choice is that? Talents that do not scale with the grows of your nation are bad for the same reason: nobody will actually use them.

If you can think of your starting profession as something that defines your outlook on life, not what your sovereign can do in his spare time, then again professions would give bonuses to the whole civilization, not one place and that would be better too. Warlord would give an experience bonus to all armies since your people love to fight and masonry would make buildings somewhat faster to build. Or something like that.

In short, talents should have cool names and should give you an ability to do something cool.

Off the top of my head:

Grand alchemist - you can convert mana to gold and vice a verse (or create gold with magic, or something like that).

Master of life - your healing spells are more efficient. You can create immortality serums that give your champions an extended lifespan.

Wielder of flames - your sovereign is immune to fire, and can deal fire damage. All fire spells get a bonus. Maybe a unique spell or two.

Well, I guess this will be hard to balance but it's not like the current talents are balanced at all.

The best answer for balance is just to deal with the cost of them.  I don't really have any ideas for new traits, but balance is just a matter of testing and adjusting pricepoints.

A few talents/weaknesses related to perhaps semi-random events? A developer occaisionally produces houses in his cities (Or maybe cities could start with 2 housing tiles by default?). A rabble rouser would occaisionally gain a few cannon fodder followers. A Chaos sorcerer that can every once in a while cast a spell thats way out of his league for a turn?

Also what about improving things you construct? A slum lord's houses hole +5 people. A Bard has +3 culture (or whatever the chalices are) generated automatically in his cities. An expansionist gets +1 tile to build on every city level.

What about something really crazy, like being a were-whatever (You chose the creature: during battle you can become that creature for 4-6 turns) or even being a lich (maybe the shade leader already is, but you could die in battle but automatically spawn back in the army next turn (assuming you win))

I like the traits you have now, but this should be something that you have like 120 of, and can really make something wild. Remember that spores only redeeming trait is its expansive editors, and yet some people still play it. Imagine a good game attached to a great set of editors?

An eyepatch is cool.

Well by being hard to balance I mean that it be would hard to put a price on. How much points should cost the ability to create invisible flying warships? What about the ability to incenerate everything in sight once a day? Is it a weaker one? Stronger one? Unique things are generally priceless. That is, they do not have a price. One gold per city is much easier to account for.

Eyepatch should be an accessory) That and ninja clothes

(Talent) Suave - more children, increase morale

(Talent) Space Ponies - self explanatory

(Talent) quick witted - improved initiative

There could be several environment specific talents that denote an aptitude to that terrain. I.e. desert survival, mountain survival, forest survival. The bonuses could be just a simple + for combat and movement in that terrain or could be expanded to allow special food gathering or planting for those tiles.


I would like to also see a "hand of fate" mechanic that randomly selects one or more talent and weakness.

Some random suggestions (mainly relating to the dynastic system) :

Xenophobic : Cannot marry your children to other kingdoms.

Mutant : Offsprings get random traits, either positive or negative.

Sterile : Cannot get children at all.

Leaking essence : Lose essence for every offspring.

Harsh parent : Offsprings go from "child" to "adult" at an earlier age.

Pacificist : Cannot initiate an attack outside of his territory.

Life giver : Making the land liveable only cost 3 essence points.

Perseverant : Get +1 attack and +1 defense during battle for every turn past the first.

A few non-statistical ideas, probably not all balanced, just thowing stuff out there...

"Haunted": "evil"/"demonic"/"ghostly" creatures and/or hordes randomly attack the Sovereign and the city he's in.  (probably should give little or no XP if this is supposed to be a drawback)

The inverse of the above would make supernatural creatures occasionally show up to help you (either permanently or for a battle).

"Renowned": heroes are more likely to offer their services.

Maybe traits that allow interconversion between essence, life, and mana (but of course only *from* essence), although I imagine we might see spells that do some of this.

"Intuition": once a turn, the Sovereign can cast a random "nearly researched" spell.  Either chosen when you cast, or chosen at the start of the turn and the player can see what it is (I prefer the latter).

"Wild Talent": random magical effects occasionally occur near the Sovereign.  Could be positive, negative, or both.

"Feedback": casting spells costs some life (proporional to total HP, level, or casting cost?)

"Power Warp": the Sovereigns and others near him when he casts magic slowly mutate (like, eg, Dungeon Crawl).  Some mutations are purely cosmetic; others could be positive (wings!) and/or negative (lowered HP).

"Foresight": up to once per turn, the Sovereign can "store" a spell instead of casting it.  The stored spell can be cast next turn for free (but vanishes if not used that turn).

"Careless": spellcasting occasionally backfires, with negative effects (eg, an attack spell might partially hit the Sovereign or nearby units; buffs might target enemies or turn into negative effects).  Backfire chance should be based on caster level and spell "difficulty".

I think you should rename everything to either "talents" or "traits". Things that are talents are simply things you are good at doing.  These are the "generic bonuses" we keep talking about. You don't need to make a unique name for every bonus. Just give players a list of bonuses and have them pick the ones they like.

Traits on the other hand have a profound affect on your character. The key is that each and every one has a pro and con associated with it. Every one.

For instance being ugly might lead to having less children.... But it also leads to less risk of veneral disease

Likewise, being blunt in conversation may offend some people. BUT that can be a plus for some people, who see you as cutting out the BS instead of hiding things behind flowery language.

EVERY trait can have a weakness, all you need to do is think on it for a little while. Angel wings are all well and cool, but the next time you get knocked on your back rolling over is going to be almost impossible.

I'm not a fan of "ugly" as a term for a weakness-- could possibly be more creative there-- something less subjective and more objective.  Might as well have "fat" haha-- these just seem un-PC.  Could go with "scarred" or "brutish" or "un/attractive" or "malformed" etc.  

I'd keep that in mind with all the talents/weaknesses actually-- more specific, less abstract, don't alienate your fat, balding fanbase (like me) who live in their basements going pew pew. 

More...

"Will to Live": bonus to mana pool and maybe casting points when the Sovereign has low HP.

"Eternal Wound": the sovereign's essence is slowly draining due to an uncurable wound.  Shouldn't ever *kill*, just reduce the essence asymptotically.

"Fastidious": the sovereign refuses to engage in hand-to-hand combat (his hair might get mussed, dontchyaknow).

"Thaumaturgic Analyst": the Sovereign's chances of countering or dispelling spells are increased modestly.

"Second sight": once a turn, the Sovereign gets to see a hidden enemy movement.  (or maybe sees a percentage of movements)

"Friend to all living things": the Sovereign has a chance to tame neutral creatures instead of fighting them.

"Dragonologist": bonus to diplomacy with dragons.

"Elementalist": when casting a spell, up to one of the shard requirements can be met using a shard of *any* element.  (I haven't gotten around to trying the spells beta, so I don't know if this will make sense / be useful)

Firstly, in regards to +/- ability modifiers, I think it would be better to have everything done by percentage (e.g. increase of X% from all spell research improvements). This would make each talent or weakness pick more relevant throughout the whole game, from exploration to end game.

Secondly, I agree that picks should have costs that are in some way proportionate to their advantages and disadvantages.

Thirdly, I think that some picks should have prerequisites, such as spell books or other picks.

Here are my suggestions (almost purely statistical):

Talents

• Longevity Seed - Offspring natural life expectancy increases by X%.
• Temperance - The Channeler's devotion to causes of Justice grants them an additional X% increase in Prestige from all sources.
• Wisdom - Adverse effects from unforeseen catastrophes (random events) are reduced by X%.
• Alchemist - The Channeler may convert between Gold and Essence at a 1:1 ratio. (ala MoM - I wish!)
• Shapeshifter - The Channeler can appear as any other Channeler or Hero that they have come into contact with.
• Essence Focusing - Increases the Essence obtained from Shards and Improvements by X%. (ala MoM)
• Prodigy - Spells related in type or hierarchy to any spell the Channeler has learnt cost X% less spell points.
• Abjurer - The Channeler gets an X% bonus to dispel attempts.
• Conjurer - Reduces the Essence and Spell Points costs of all summoning spells by X%, and also reduces the upkeep costs of summoned creatures by X% or Y%. (ala MoM)
• Evoker - All elemental damage spells deal an additional X% damage.
• Elementalist - All elemental spells cost X% less spell points, and X% or Y% less Essence to cast.
• Quintessence - The Channeler may learn and cast spells that require shards, without having those shards, but at an additional spell point and essence cost of X%. (Should be an expensive pick)
• Borrowed Power - The Channeler may spend Essence they do not have, which will be deducted from their future influx in installments with an X% rate of interest. If N number of turns passes without an installment being paid, the Channeler may suffer consequences such as loss of things that require magical upkeep, or semi-permanent hitpoint damage equal to the installment amount that goes away once the Channeler is back on schedule.
• Soulcaster - The Channeler may sacrifice hitpoints for Essence at an X:Y ratio. The hitpoints are restored after N turns.

Weaknesses

• Corrupting Influence - X% loss of food and gold from all sources.
• Superstitious - X% delay in completion of improvements.
• Indecisive - Armies lose the first-strike initiative bonus when attacking.
• Callous - The rate of unit healing is reduced by X%.
• Misunderstood - Positive diplomatic results are reduced by X%.
• Cursed - The Channeler becomes prone to random delays, random increases in costs, and random increases in upkeep.

For additional strategy options, the above mentioned percantages may be calculated depending on how many spell books have been selected, or how many of the relevant type, where more spell books might mean an increased percentage for talents and a decreased percentage for weaknesses.

"Quick Learner": the Sovereign has a small chance of learning a spell outright every time he/she sees it get cast (possibly subject to it being a spell he/she "nearly" learned already, to avoid abuse).

"Brittle": the Sovereign takes extra damage from melee attacks.

"Double Trouble": once per combat, the Sovereign can cast two spells in a turn (if this makes sense; it's not yet clear what the mechanics of tactical combat are AFAIK)  Maybe allow it any time during combat (but that feels too strong to me)

"Bad Publicity": the Sovereign tends to inspire hostility in those near him/her and in the population; heroes will occasionally lead rebellions to free the land from his/her "evil rule".

"Acclimated": the Sovereign greatly prefers his/her own terrain type.  When in the wasteland, he/she gets significant penalties to stats; even larger penalties in the opposite terrain type (life vs death).  Assuming this doesn't already happen, anyway.

Wow those are all so obvious!

What about:

Traits: Perks: Talents:

Lady Boy: "What once was, was cut off." - Exotic tastes give a diplomatic advantage to those who are different from you.

Metal Head: "Metal and Steel: Forms of Rock." - Advanced cultural thinking gives the sovereign more intense spell effects and pounding beat(ing)s. Also makes it faster to build certain weapons because, you know metal.

Fatality: "Death comes with a wide grin." - The sovereign's love of burtal executions have given them an bloodlust that has proven to be useful in combat. Gives the sovereign a burtal attack of some kind that only works on lowish health enemys.

Backwards: "Hate forward!" - Your sovereign can retreat at any time to the closest friendly city.

Weaknesses:

From Behind: "I was just bending over to pick something up!" - Your sovereign has an alarming tendancy to get caught in compromising positions to the extent that they are treated with amusment rather than fear. -2 respect (or whatever).

Fools Rush In: "Its a TRAP!" - Your sovereign's curiosity and trusting nature have brought many a trap baited with princesses to rescue down upon thier heads. Soldiers get less of a command bonus when near the sovereign. (Or whatever you get the idea)

Utter Emo: "But its NOT a weakness!" - Although she professes it not to be a weakness your sovereign's emo nature has pushed away those around her that don't understand her. Less children but the ones she does have become able to express their emotions stronger.

Personally I prefer an intergrated trade off system like:

Dragon Lover: "You did WHAT with a dragon!?!" - Your sovereign's love of dragons has gone a little too far. Its easier to recruit them but people think they are disgusting resulting in lesser diplomatic relations.

or

Towering Intellect: "I have got just a few more things to do and then Ill be down." - Your sovereign takes thier work a little too seriously and stays up in thier tower far too long. You gain a bonus to research but a loss of trust when commanding troops.

           Talent                                                                                        Benefit                                                                                                 

           Tactician                                                               Units can be arranged before battle and do +1 damage on                                                                                        first strike

         Lore Master                                                           Research times for new spells are reduced by 5%

         Alchemist                                                              Can create potions faster, more reliably and with greater 

                                                                                      effects

          Metallurgist                                                           Weapons and armors produced gain extra durability and 

                                                                                     strength by 1  

          Bookmaker                                                            Soverign can create 1 book of magic

          Builder                                                                   Citizen production times are lessened by 5%