Four Economic Technologies that Need (major) Help and What to Do About Them!

As the kind of guy who likes to number crunch and find break-even points and really get under the skin of the game's mechanics, these are four technologies that really irk me.  They're not particularly useful, they're overshadowed by other much simpler and cost-effective alternatives, and in general can be ignored.  With the exception of refineries, I have never used any of these in a multiplayer game.  They need considerable help to enter the world of usefulness, and I have my own ideas of what can be done.

 

#1) Colony Pods

I had a little bit of trouble deciding which upgrade takes the cake for “most useless economic upgrade”, but I eventually settled on colony pods. First of all, it's a starbase upgrade, so you need to have a starbase (something very expensive and totally non-viable as a purely economic installation). It uses up one upgrade slot on that starbase, precluding other potentially necessary upgrades. So right off the bat there are lots of hurdles to using colony pods.

Even not counting the cost of the starbase, the colony pods themselves are exorbitantly expensive, priced the same as usual starbase upgrades (1800 credits, 275 metal, 150 crystal). For a measly 1.3 credits per second, this is not a good deal at all. In fact, it's overshadowed by the trade port upgrade which grants a minimum of 1.6 credits per second. In other words, even if you don't have a trade route at all, the trade port upgrade is better. Don't even get me started on the second level, which is ridiculously expensive and offers a pinch more cash.

Now, colony pods do have an upside: they can only be destroyed by destroying the starbase. Trade ports can be destroyed by bombers and the planet's population can be decimated by siege frigates. However, this argument is fairly weak since we're talking about a starbased gravity well.

How should colony pods be improved? The best option, in my opinion, would be to dramatically reduce the upgrade cost. The fact that they require a starbase and take up precious upgrade slots is a huge price to begin with, and even the monetary cost is simply out of this world compared to the benefits.  A cost of around 500 credits (making it very cheap by starbase upgrade standards) might be appropriate. Although that may seem low, it's actually still inferior to what a moderate-high loyalty planet will give you in tax income from a population upgrade. Remember that the real cost is the starbase and its upgrade capacity!

 

#2) Resource Focus

This upgrade is as close to garbage as you can get (though I eventually decided colony pods were slightly worse). I've found a few theoretical cases where it might be worthwhile, but the amount of effort to make it work just isn't worthwhile when you can spam trade ports for almost the same effect. 

The simple question a player must ask himself is whether it is more profitable to leave a trade port as a trade port, or to convert it for resource focus. For this example, I'll presume a nearly worst-case scenario for the trade port user: I'll use the 4.5 conversion rate and a (very) low estimate of 1.6 credits per second from each of your trade ports. By these numbers, you'd need 0.35 resource per second benefit in order for converting to resource focus to be worthwhile. With basic unupgraded resource focus granting an 8% boost, the planet would need a base resource income of 4.375 just to break even with what could be achieved with trade port operation. This value is utterly unachievable; basic resource focus is literally never useful.

Even if you do have the 7-lab level upgrades (we're talking about a 7th lab level upgrade here; this is end-game material!) it's still not that strong. Your trade port is likely very long by now, so let's give a (very) low-ball estimate of 2.4 credits per second income each. Again, using the 4.5 conversion rate, we require 0.53 extra resources to break even. With the 25% boost... we need approximately 2 resource income per second from the planet to be worthwhile. This is break-even condition is only possible on absurdly high-loyalty planets with 4 rocks. In other words, you need allure of the unity and induced reverence to make it work. You're better off just making your trade route longer to boost credit income, since you get so little from converting to resource-focus mode.

How should resource focus be improved? I think we can agree that resource focus should be useful only on planets with 3-4 rocks and high to very high loyalty. It should be competitive with moderate to long trade routes (with respect to what stage of the game we're in). With that in mind, I'm going to look at an 80% loyalty planet with 3 rocks and as the break-even condition. Such a planet's base resource income is 1.2 per second.

With an early-game trade route estimated at 6 jumps, this gives trade ports an income of 1.9 credits per second. With this as our target break-even, a little algebra tells us what the base extraction bonus of resource focus should be 35%. This should only serve to demonstrate how underpowered the current resource focus (at 7%, capping at 25%) really is.

Next, a late-game example for the resource focus upgrades. Let's up the trade route to 9 jumps and 12 jumps for our break-even comparison. That gives trade port income at 2.5 and 2.9 respectively, mundane as far as the late game goes. Using the same approach as before, we get extraction bonuses of 46% and 53%. Let's round that off to 45% and 55%, which are nice clean numbers.

That is where I think it should be: basic resource focus at 35% bonus, improving to 45% and 55% with its 7-lab upgrade.

 

#3) Vasari Volcanic Population Upgrade:

Appearing later in the tech tree than any other population upgrades, and being the most expensive as a result, it's surprising that these upgrades pack so little effect. The problem is that volcanic planets have very little population to begin with, and so even a large %-based modifier doesn't translate into significant absolute values.

Even if you max out the upgrade, it only gives you +60% population. This would be nice on any other type of full-sized planet, but the volcanic has only 70 population to begin with. You get a measly 42 extra population per planet for completing the upgrade line (a mere 10 population per upgrade), with two techs at the 4th level and two techs at the 5th level. This is a very expensive high-level tech that gives quite little in return and requires you to have a silly amount of volcanics.

While it is possible to have a large number of volcanics, you'd need 9 or 10 for this to be seriously worthwhile. Even presuming one in three of your planets is a volcanic (a ridiculously high proportion; I've never seen it happen), this implies an empire approximately 30 planets large, which is large enough that it should have a trade-based economy rather than a tax-based economy. By the time this upgrade is viable, it's no longer relevant.

How should volcanic population upgrades be improved? Simple: like the upgrades for terrans, deserst, and ice planets, the volcanic population upgrade should be viable for only a handful of volcanics. With that in mind, 30/60/90/120% would be reasonable modifiers. Even when maxed out, that's only 84 extra population per planet (21 per upgrade level). This is approximately on par (in an absolute sense) with the terran planet upgrades that come much earlier in the tech tree.

 

#4) Refineries

I've listed a lot of junk above. I'm sure a lot of the multiplayer guys were just nodding their heads in agreement; these are things we just never see. Refineries are in a different class. Not so much useless as use-impaired. There are situations where they work, quite well even. The problem is, those situations are few and far between and in the long-run it's hard to compare to the glory of a long trade port chain.

The upshot of refineries is that (unlike resource focus) they can affect multiple planets. If you get a good junction, you might have 6 planets under the effect of a single refinery, averaging 3 extractors each. This means there are some great scenarios that just scream for refineries. The problem is that these situations are rare and far between. The average case situation leaves few viable locations for refineries and most of the time it's simpler and more cost-effective to go with trade ports.

Even if you do go for refineries on a larger scale, their effect caps off in an annoying manner that can cause two stacks of refineries in close proximity to conflict with each other. As well, trade ports just become better and better as your empire grows, while refineries don't scale. While not useless, refineries have a lot of problems, and the kicker is that they cost twice as much as trade ports.

How should refineries be improved? Seriously, just lower their cost. Move them to the same cost-range as trade ports and they'll be fine. If they were less expensive and could be deployed more easily, people would get them a lot more often. They don't have to be the best thing in the world, but they do need a little bit more edge.

 

 

That's my four cents on four sub-par economic technologies in this game.

 

153,033 views 73 replies
Reply #1 Top

You make some very good points, especially regarding refineries, which I personally would like to see become more useful.  The one problem I've always had regarding them, is that they are supposed to be one of the major economic advantages to playing the TEC/Vasari over the Advent, except they aren't, it just turns into a "Spam Trade, Buy From Black Market" strategy, which is A ) Boring and B ) Favours the Advent (as they are no longer at a disadvantage, because the TEC/Vasari have no want for Refineries as they are just too situational), so I'm glad people are looking into them with earnest.

 

And Kudos for going to the effort of crunching the numbers.

Reply #2 Top

Indeed, a good analysis that offers data and solutions. Devs should deffidently read.

Reply #3 Top

Agreed.  These things do need some fixing.

Reply #4 Top

Colony pods could use help- you haven't mentioned that the cost of the research itself is higher than trade for some unknown reason, though trade requides an extra lab.  Why not halve the research cost?  Your suggested cost seems low for an upgrade though, I'd have priced it at the same 1000 level as a TEC trade port.

I'm not sure why colony pods are worse than Resource Focus though, since pods will at least pay off?  Your trade routes seem very long to me, I'd have an early route as perhaps 4 and a later one as 8.  A 16-jump route is mundane...???  On any multiplayer smaller than 5s a 16-jump route is something that might only be possible if you played long after the game was over.  You might factor resource extraction technology increases as well?  However a significant boost is definitely needed.

Volcanics need to be made equivalent to the other upgrades, as you outlined.

Refineries are very map dependent, they are good for maps with plenty of neutrals- if there were any among the standard maps.  Another impediment to refineries that you haven't mentioned is that the Vasari refinery takes four(?) levels of research- and this for the resource extraction specialists.  I'd go for better maps though.  How about another thread, on the standard maps? 

I might add the the charity power of the TEC envoy is still a problem- no longer 10 credits a second and restricted to allied planets, but still 2 credits a second- and they stack, and take no slots... 

Reply #5 Top

you haven't mentioned that the cost of the research itself is higher than trade for some unknown reason, though trade requides an extra lab

The trade port starbase upgrade requires the trade port structure upgrade as a prerequisite.  As a result, it effectively requires eight labs total, four of each.  This is clearly why the research cost was lowered.

Your suggested cost seems low for an upgrade though, I'd have priced it at the same 1000 level as a TEC trade port.

The effect is also very low, and it doesn't extend your trade chain (which, a good 80% of the time, is the reason you're buying the trade port upgrade on your starbase).  Remember, you get 1.3 credits per second off of this upgrade.  At its current cost, it takes 53 minutes to pay off.  Even if you cut the cost to a third, that's still 17 minutes to pay off.


Your trade routes seem very long to me, I'd have an early route as perhaps 4 and a later one as 8.

I don't even build trade ports if I can't put up at least 4 links.  I consider that the bare minimums just to get started.  With that in mind, six seemed a fair number for the early-game.

On any multiplayer smaller than 5s a 16-jump route is something that might only be possible if you played long after the game was over.

No, I've done this several times on the front lines as it happens.  The last time was a 3v3 where I sent off my Akkan to colonize while my fleet fought, so in the late-game I had space to build that crazy chain.  I think I got up to 23 links by the end.  It should be noted that by the time I actually reached the 7 civic lab level, my chain was nearly complete.  Fact is you rarely go for the high-level civics unless your empire is really huge.

You might factor resource extraction technology increases as well?  However a significant boost is definitely needed.

I considered that, but I decided against it.  I don't think you should need to stack up synergies to make this upgrade useful in a general sense.  You should be able to make it better, but there's a lot of cost associated with getting all those upgrades.

Honestly I think allure of the unity is the bigger boost here.

Another impediment to refineries that you haven't mentioned is that the Vasari refinery takes four(?) levels of research- and this for the resource extraction specialists

Vasari takes three labs with extraction research prerequisites.  The TEC refinery takes four labs straight.  The prerequisites are not unreasonable as is.

Reply #6 Top

Well thought out post. Though I have different ideas on how best to improve these techs, yours are very reasonable. Good job. Ill certainly link this post in the next PSCF

Reply #7 Top

Well thought out post but I disagree.  Economic boosters should never be cost effective otherwise the game will become "Sins of a bland empire".   :zzz:

Reply #8 Top

Explain your reasoning CoBBQ. Many economic upgrades are very cost effective, Darvins is just addressing the ones that arent, in essence making it useful, because if it isnt useful in some way, why get it? Theres a bunch of techs on the tech tree that just arent useful or are too expensive for what they give you. I don;t understand why improving them would make the game boring.

I might add the the charity power of the TEC envoy is still a problem- no longer 10 credits a second and restricted to allied planets, but still 2 credits a second- and they stack, and take no slots... 

2 creds a second seems like much, but also consider that envoy ships take up a bit of supply, which kinda prevents abuse of them. I mean if you wanted to spam them to draw a pretty big income, you'll still have to upgrade your supply to use that income, and if they all get destroyed, well then that sucks for you, cuz now your economy is crap. Maybe it needs a little tweaking, like perhaps making them not stack, but I think the rate is fine now.

Reply #9 Top

Quoting CoBBQ, reply 7
Well thought out post but I disagree.  Economic boosters should never be cost effective otherwise the game will become "Sins of a bland empire".  

 

If they were never cost effective why would anyone research them? Would you research Illuminators if you were better off with Disciples in every situation?

Reply #10 Top

A better comparison is whether you would research destras if illuminators were better in every situation?  My experience from 1.041 was a solid no.

Reply #11 Top

Cost effectiveness is a turtler's delight.  Without any sort of diminishing returns on economy boosters like refineries and colony pods, a turtler's economy can grow exponently if an opponent fails to inflict any significant eco damage during the early phase of the game.  Its a significant problem that plaqued strategy games when economic mastery stomps the stragetic parts out of the game.

Reply #12 Top

Thanks man. You must be playing this game a lot (how much?). I hope the developers are watching this thread. When do you plan to write a strategy guide to help us the less experienced players ;) It would be much appreciated!

Reply #13 Top

@Co: They still can't fight.  Also, if they have a pocket, so do you, so there is no issue.  In 1v1 or 2v2 its fine because everyone will fight; research economy at your own peril.  But once you get at or above 3v3's, both teams will either have suicide positions and/or pockets.  This means feed, and since your team has a feeder as well, then there is no problem.  Its balanced.

And we aren't saying that things need to be paid off instantly, but with colony pods for example, it takes 53 minutes to pay for itself.  Let's say you got an Orky 15 minutes in and bought this.  The game would already be almost over and that measly 1.3 credits per seconds is nill.  TEC envoys get you more money than that!  So its a worthless upgrade to begin with, but it also sucks up a slot on your SB?  Hardly worth even considering.

Reply #14 Top

Totally agreed on all 4 issues.  I never use the first three, and the fourth only with Visari in ideal situations.  These should all be viable options compared to simply massing trade ports.

Reply #15 Top

As always, Darvin, very good insight. And I never knew colony pods were THAT bad...

Reply #16 Top

If the trade upgrade requires so many labs then perhaps it should be the better upgrade?  1.3c/s is 78c/min.. in 10 mins 780 credits.  Having the upgrade pay for itself in under 10 mins might be excessive?

What sort of map was your 3v3 on?  It must have had an odd layout if it was still being fought when you had a 16-jump plus route.  How many starbases did you need?  It would require half the system in a random 3v3.  The 2s replay that Minsy put up recently lasted 2 hours and the longest trade chain was 5 jumps....

You should include the resource upgrades though, especially if you use three extractor planets as a guide to equality with trade, which seems reasonable.  Perhaps that would have the boost start at 25%, where it currently ends?  If you often sell resources for credits, the focus is far less useful than if you're short in the early game and need the resources. 

If there's cost involved in getting Advent resource upgrades, the same is true of the Vasari resource upgrades!  That's why I mentioned the three levels of extraction tech Vasari need before they can research refineries.  If Resource Focus is to be boosted, then perhaps it could be made dependent on the resource upgrades in the same manner?  Otherwise I'd just omit the extraction prerequisites for Vasari, make it three labs only.

Not allowing the envoys to stack their charitable efforts would be more than just a tweak!  The rate is just too high, more than a trade port, for a cheaper ship.  If you have eight of them for 96 supply thats 16 c/sec income.  Even if you take a whole 20% for supply thats 12.8 c/sec- as much as some entire empires!  Yes if they are destroyed that might be expensive, but trade ports can't be moved away from attackers- and if your ally loses every single one of his planets, then you are in trouble anyway.      

Reply #17 Top

Cost effectiveness is a turtler's delight.  Without any sort of diminishing returns on economy boosters like refineries and colony pods, a turtler's economy can grow exponently if an opponent fails to inflict any significant eco damage during the early phase of the game.


Yeah sure, except that trade ports already give you exponential gains. I'm gauging these technologies with respect to other things that exist in the game.  I compare volcanic population upgrades with terran and desert population upgrades for effect.  I compare resource focus against trade port operation (literally two mutually exclusive uses of the same structure).

Moreover, my point is that these technologies are so weak that they are actually without use.  You could remove them from the game and no one would notice, they're that bad (refineries, as mentioned are somewhat better, and if you notice my suggestion for improvement is also much milder).  This isn't about making them "good" returns, but actually worth using in the first place.


If the trade upgrade requires so many labs then perhaps it should be the better upgrade?

There are two big differences here.  The first is that colony pods gives a flat return, but the trade port upgrade scales as your trade network increases.  So even though the minimum amount given by a trade port upgrade is 1.6, it could realistically be pushed up to double that.  Secondly, the trade port upgrade can be used to extend your trade network and improve income on all existing trade ports.  In fact, this is its primary use; it's not actually a great upgrade itself, but at least it has some utility.

Any one of these things on their own would be fine, but coming together they just eclipse colony pods. The kicker is that colony pods are just a bad investment to begin with, which makes the low prerequisites quite meaningless.


What sort of map was your 3v3 on?  It must have had an odd layout if it was still being fought when you had a 16-jump plus route.  How many starbases did you need?  It would require half the system in a random 3v3.

I'm going off memory here, but the layout was such that I could link up almost all of my planets into the chain.  If I recall correctly, I needed three starbases for this, but all three had military application (one was sitting on top of a wormhole, one was covering a contested neutral, and one was defending an allied planet.

Secondly, 16 gravity wells is only a third of a 3v3 random map (50 planets).


The 2s replay that Minsy put up recently lasted 2 hours and the longest trade chain was 5 jumps....

That's a bit low, even by the standards of 1s.  The real question is: what was the civic lab level?  If it was 3-5 range, you're only proving my point here that ~6 labs is an appropriate comparison to basic resource focus.

Remember that the higher level resource focus upgrades require 7 labs, and this tech level is rarely reached in 1v1 or 2v2 scenarios.  It's usually restricted to pocket players in 3s or larger.


If you often sell resources for credits, the focus is far less useful than if you're short in the early game and need the resources.

I don't see your point here; you say that I should account for resource upgrades in my methodology, then your only reason seems to support doing the opposite.

Trade ports require little effort to bring on to the field.  Resource focus requires an extra lab and a higher-level research.  Why should the comparison be against resource focus plus several other mid-level technologies? 

Moreover, remember that these are break-even conditions.  This 80% loyalty 3-rock planet is indifferent as to whether you use trade or resource focus functionality.  Resource focus is only useful on planets that have more resource income than our break-even example.  That means 90%+ loyalty planets or 4-rock planets, which unless you've got culture is not a lot of planets in the first place.


If there's cost involved in getting Advent resource upgrades, the same is true of the Vasari resource upgrades!


Comparing Vasari refineries to Advent resource focus in not appropriate.  I very intentionally listed refineries and resource focus separately because their effects are quite different.  Refineries affect multiple planets and are unaffected by loyalty, but have a stack cap.  Both are logistic structures that improve resource income, but that's where the similarities end.

With that said, Vasari extraction upgrades are the most cost-effective of any race and synergize well with their scouts.  The Advent ones are the least cost-effective by comparison.

Reply #18 Top

you know... because of this, the devs will probably decide to nerf the trade ports to be par with they crappy-ness of other econ upgrades, rather than fix whats wrong?

oh well...

Reply #19 Top

Heh, got a small correction to make.  Turns out that 2.5 and 2.9 credits per second actually correspond to 9 and 12 jump trade routes respectively, not 12 and 18.  I accidentally mixed some normal and fast game constants.  Anyways, turns out I was comparing against smaller trade routes.  I'll leave my analysis as is, however.

Reply #20 Top

I would agree these need help.

Reply #21 Top

Heres how I feel about it.If your gonna go the extra mile to buy labs and spend more money on a higher level tec it should outperform a lower level tec.Its like buyin a computer from 5 years ago that is cheaper and faster than a new one.Not to mention it costs you risk in slots and the fact your not building up your fleet.So it needs to be worth your while.I could go for refineries getting a 10-20% increase.That way it is valuable in much more common lower rock counts then those highly unlikely low numbers.Or whatever % that fits to accomplish that goal.The refineries are a higher level structure thus should give more than a lower level tp.Somewhere on the level of 20-25% more effiecient than tp.

For resource focus it should be much more than a refinery cause its focused on one area.The refineries will still have the upper hand when it can reach many rocks but for one system it should beat refineries.The likelyhood of advent gettin that many civ labs is pretty low anyway.

I dunno about colony pods.It does suck but vas are strong eco latergame.Leave the sb eco to tec.Just lower the cost a bit maybe.It shouldnt take an hour to pay itself off.

Reply #22 Top

That way it is valuable in much more common lower rock counts then those highly unlikely low numbers

Refineries give you about 0.08 per rock.  Using 4.5 conversion, this gives you 0.36 credits per rock.  In other words, you need only 4 rocks to equal a trade port with no chain, and 6 rocks is all you need to match an average early-game chain.  I think this is fine performance, especially given that you occasionally may get 9-15 rocks, and the only issue is that the refineries cost a whole lot more than trade ports. 

That's the real problem, refineries are better than trade ports in a lot of instances, but the big problem is they cost more so at the end of the day it makes more sense to just stick with trade unless you have a spot that just screams "put a refinery here".  If they were cheaper to build, I think that would fix them right then and there.

 

I dunno about colony pods.It does suck but vas are strong eco latergame.Leave the sb eco to tec.Just lower the cost a bit maybe.It shouldnt take an hour to pay itself off.

That was my recommendation.  In any case, starbase upgrade slots themselves should be considered part of that cost, which is why I suggested around 1/4 to 1/3 of their present price.

Reply #23 Top

Right.  I was playing as Vasari on a small map against a hard AI today and there was one junction that had 13 rocks.  This screamed refinery, so I put up a few to boost it.  

I think a lot of the problem is the initial start up cost.  In the long run, they are often just fine, but the research and cost to build one is too steep.  You generally won't get one unless you know you are in for a long slugfest like I was on a small map with an AI and only have one good location for them, but just reducing the cost is all you need.  People don't get them because they don't want to burn a ton of money for something that may not give a lot back in the long run.  Trade Ports are a safer investment as they increase their income exponentially.

 

I'm sorry, but I'm going blank..  What is the income of a trade port and the boost per TP in the chain?  I'm trying to figure something out...

Reply #24 Top

 

If you have neutral extractors in an adjacent well, will those also feed the refinery?

Would anyone care to calculate the payoff times for a refinery based on the number of rocks in adjacent gravity wells?  Do they also received resources from extractors in the well where they are built?

Reply #25 Top

See Darvin's post on the next page...