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Races--because they really matter if you want an epic game

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Races--because they really matter if you want an epic game

A plea to reconsider

from Elemental Forums

I've read many of the posts here about races not being included in the original release.  I watched Frogboy play MoM (arguably the best game ever). I read the post about Sid Meier's 10 rules.  These two strike me as relevant in regards the race issue:

 

5.  Make sure the player is having fun, not the designer/computer.

If you read this site carefully, a lot of gamers want some races included in the initial release.  Why? Because IMHO the average gamer wants to PLAY not DEVELOP. Most of the comments against adding races seem to come from the more developer-oriented players, or those with the time to mod.

Races add replayability and intrigue--'getting to do with another race what I can't do with mine'. Magical creatures and abilities that aren't human, and accomplishing an incredibly diverse universe of options.  Sounds like Fantasy to me.  Yes, Fantasy. Isn't that why we want E:WoM rather than a modern combat game of human v. human?  Since these things add greatly to fun, why the resistance to adding races now?

 

I just don't get it.  I've never read a post from the developers explainingwhy not...is there a good reason?

 

8. Make it Epic

Again, read the comments on this site. Most people want some race option, they're often just discussing the details and how/when. Well, if you want this game to be EPIC, get 'er done!!!

 

I can see why for marketing and sales reasons and even technical reasons that you might delay this feature--but those reasons aren't focused on the GAMER.  I humbly submit that without multiple races in the initial release, this game is too little about Fantasy and Gamers.   For those of us who have dreamed about a truly worthy spiritual successor of MoM, we won't get it commercially the way this is going. 

 

Would anyone be willing to help me create a poll to help statistically validate/disprove my assertions? Including questions about how needed this feature is? (10 mission-critical and won't play without it) (5 want it but willing to mod/wait) (1 don't care) something like that?

 

p.s. If you don't get that the tone of this post is respectful, I apologize. I just want E:WoM to be the best game ever and I really think it needs races in the initial release to be that.

elemental
130,222 views 48 replies
Reply #26 from Elemental Forums Top

I still remember my Drow President* for The Political Machine 2008. Some will understand what I mean.

* a pic should be still there somewhere in the forum. Or maybe not. I lost the copy I had anyway.

Reply #27 from Elemental Forums Top

I've already pre-ordered the game, but I'll be very frank and I don't care how childish/unimaginative it sounds - if I cannot play as Undead, I don' t think I can love this game. Think about it - Age of Wonders 2, Disciples 2, and even Warcraft -- all great games because you could play as Undead. I'm only (half) joking of course.

I was under the impression this game could replace Age of Wonders 2 and I agree with the OP that the huge variety of races (and the fantastic mods) is what keeps that game interesting nearly a decade later. I could never get past the graphics of Dominions 3, but that game has fantastic playable race options. It doesn't have to be generic elves or orcs. Dominions has Nephilim and Lovecraftian Cthulhu cults that come up out of the seas for chrissakes.

I love the Song of Ice and Fire books, best fantasy series in my opinion - why? Because it has a freaking undead bear attacking people. I rest my case.

I will eagerly await to see how Stardock plans to handle the factions. I really want to love this game.

Humans = boring.

 

Star Control: Origins
Reply #28 from Elemental Forums Top

Hey, quit calling us boring. :P

Reply #29 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting blackbirrd, reply 27
[...]

I will eagerly await to see how Stardock plans to handle the factions. I really want to love this game.

Humans = boring.
We already know their plans for the factions. Two major factions, Fallen & Humans, each divided into smaller nations.

All racial diversity is handled between them.

And I love it.

Reply #30 from Elemental Forums Top

Humans = boring.

We're not boring! Fantasy Strategy games have been making the humans boring for years.

I'll admit, I enjoyed Warcraft a lot more when it was *just* orcs and *just* humans. Now, you can't throw a rock in that world without hitting some rediculous race.

I feel like over time mythical monsters and races in games have been becoming less and less special. Elves are pretty much vanilla no matter what subrace you slap onto them.

Elemental promises to make elves and/or elf-like races and any other kind of race more special. I'm all for that. Rare and special and powerful and mysterious are good things for other races to be.

And as for humans, we're an interesting species. Games have long marginalized the potential diversity of humans, relegating them to the role of noble knights in armor or evil "oppresses the Elves" type. I hope that Elemental will buck the trend and make humans as interesting as they are.

There's something to be said about simplicity of setting, too... with too many rediculous races, the setting starts to "jump the shark"... like I think World of Warcraft has done. Then, everything just gets to be a mess. A lot of games forget this.

Reply #31 from Elemental Forums Top

Humans reduced to a "balanced race with nothing special except versatility" is quite a consequence of so much fantasy race around. At least for rpgs.

Surely humans in Lords of the Rings were varied and interesting (because Rohan >>>>>> Gondor :P). So even if you were to remove all the fantasy creatures, they should remain interesting.

I like Warcraft 2 a lot but it was sickening so much mirroring in the factions. Warcraft 1 was the best evah. Warcraft 3 = meh (for a variety of reasons included certain unbearable Paladin wannabe)

Reply #32 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting blackbirrd, reply 27


I love the Song of Ice and Fire books, best fantasy series in my opinion - why? Because it has a freaking undead bear attacking people. I rest my case.


 

 

Check out the Malazan series. Has some aweosme undead especially in "Midnight Tides". Undead humans which growl and try to scratch people to scare them. Hilarity and the awesome undead thief with the rebar sticking out of her head. Gotta read it. It is really awesome.

Anyways I like the idea of only having humans to start off with but (not sure here) will be able to recruit fantasy creatures to help you in your fight for dominion. Great idea I think and adds alot of depth besides picking a race which is good at hugging trees :D . Your decisions and tactics decide what you will besome good at weather its hugging trees or burning things. 

 

 

Reply #33 from Elemental Forums Top

I may take a look at the Malazan books again. I read the first one and, if I recall correctly, practically everyone in the city was an assassin. That kinda takes away the coolness factor of having assassins.... But I may give them another chance.

Reply #34 from Elemental Forums Top

His first book was one of his poorer books. The next two books "Chain of Dogs" and "Memories of Ice" are really good. Definately give it another try.

Reply #35 from Elemental Forums Top

Hang in there and wait and see how it works out before making judgments.

It's worth noting that Civilization only has ONE race. Humans. Same for Age of Empires. 

Sins of a Solar Empire has 3 races.  Starcraft has 3 races.  

  • Elemental is a bit different in that you will have the Kingdoms of Men (various factions) and the Empires of the Fallen (various factions of non-men).
  • A game can have up to 32 players in it (human and/or AI).
  • The non-men factions (The Fallen) themselves come in a few different forms which we're holding back a bit on the details.
  • Elemental will have 12 unique factions. Each will have its own spell book. Its own technology tree. Unique equipment, unique buildings, etc. 
The mistake I guess was early on referring to Men and Fallen as "races".

 

Reply #36 from Elemental Forums Top

The mistake I guess was early on referring to Men and Fallen as "races".

Yeah, "12 factions" would be a lot better for PR, methinks.

Reply #37 from Elemental Forums Top

Thank you for the clarification Frogboy.  I can barely contain my glee!

Reply #38 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 35
The mistake I guess was early on referring to Men and Fallen as "races".

Which some people already stated they don't care because it's not fantasy/epic without elves, dwarves, klackons, halflings, nomads, thri-kreen, ogres, orcs, trolls, draconians... as playeable "races".(and why the hell must people keep calling them races? I hate so much how in D&D they call them races too when they are fraking species!!! I don't care if an elven ranger is the "avatar" of an african hunter, an elven courtier is in reality a french courtier, and a dwarf warrior is a german warrior; new species based in concrete human traits is ok, but they are still different species!) I foresee winged fallen, flame breathing fallen (please!)...

Reply #39 from Stardock Forums Top

But I played through the progress from base GC2 to Twilight of the Arnor and saw the Starodock devs do seriously good work on what, to me, was one of the biggest weaknesses of the GalCiv series--the lack of real diversity in playable factions.

If I remember correctly, in the base GC2, the various races/factions weren't really different. But that was no longer the case in Twilight of the Arnor where each race have specific technologies and buildings greatly altering the way to play them.

Reply #40 from Elemental Forums Top

If I remember correctly, in the base GC2, the various races/factions weren't really different. But that was no longer the case in Twilight of the Arnor where each race have specific technologies and buildings greatly altering the way to play them.

I was very impresssed with the changes to the way the GC2 factions play. Each civ feels quite distinctive now, especially if you turn off tech trading or disable tech brokering.

Reply #41 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting GW, reply 40

If I remember correctly, in the base GC2, the various races/factions weren't really different. But that was no longer the case in Twilight of the Arnor where each race have specific technologies and buildings greatly altering the way to play them.
I was very impresssed with the changes to the way the GC2 factions play. Each civ feels quite distinctive now, especially if you turn off tech trading or disable tech brokering.
Hopefully Elemental will have a much better system in place, that allows distinctive racial abilities without turning them into techs that can be traded, while still having faction-specific techs that CAN be traded - with AI's that value them appropriately.

Reply #42 from Elemental Forums Top

As I privately replied to BoogieBac, thank you for listening and caring enough to reply--those actions alone are so cool they  diminish the value of my post, as you have obviously thought about these issues. 

Sorry for the distraction to your vision/work. I will return to being hopeful and try to provide more harmonious beta comments.

 

Reply #43 from Elemental Forums Top

But I remain convinced that the whole question is best postponed until we see roughly-finished versions of the canon factions.

This is all we ask The race design screens are currently being implemented and I think you'll be astounded by the amount of options to play with (both visual and statistical) to make a the non-canon races of your liking. We've also held off on introducing the 12 different factions that you can play as out-of-the-box. Just know that your all the OP's concerns are noted (and shared) as we continue development.

I am fine with waiting but I'm just worried that by the time we get enough information it will be too late to change anything.  Adding races would be a very large change (graphics, story, special rules, etc).  All humans can definitely work but for a lot of people (I think) races are one of the things that draw them to the setting.  Many will expect it, especially since you are saying MOM is an inspiration for this game and may be put off by not having them.  I know for me personally it was a big let down.  If you are still considering races I just hope you introduce the current factions soon so there is time to change it if people don't like it.

Reply #44 from Elemental Forums Top

That the said that MoM is an inspiration for Elemental doesn't mean there will be manny races. That would imply that as they said that x-Com is another of its inspirations, we should be getting alien invasions... (as long as it's from the Far Realm, it would be cool)

Reply #45 from Elemental Forums Top

Races is just a word. What makes the game like master of magic good is the differences between the civ that you could play.

 

You could call them elves or you could call them team 1, what will make it good is what each can and cannot do.

 

So call it what you will; races or factions what I want to know is what advantages do I get for playing one more than the other....

 

 

Reply #46 from Elemental Forums Top

As long as the factions play differntly all will be well. Although i have got to admit, i do tend to play elves a lot more than any other race in fantasy games on the grounds that(no joke) elven babes are far and away the hottest. So all those apperance things actually do matter.

Reply #47 from Elemental Forums Top

That would imply that as they said that x-Com is another of its inspirations, we should be getting alien invasions... (as long as it's from the Far Realm, it would be cool)

Alien invasions!!   \o/  speaking on x-com, picked it up again lately, and I'm really looking forward to how they intend to use it for inspiration. But your right, inspiration is just that, it doesn't mean it has to be just like it.

i do tend to play elves a lot more than any other race in fantasy games on the grounds that(no joke) elven babes are far and away the hottest.

and wow dude, talk about fantasy? ;)  lol but i hope we will have our fair share of attractive girls in Elemental (and guys for all you lady forumers :P  ) I mean, Frogboy has stated that attractiveness is important in marriage proposals. So in an effort to try and remain on topic (which I have the hardest time doing for some reason...) while they may not be your "elven hotties" and we may not have an elven race, I hope we can see it done with a human faction :thumbsup:   Saved it.

Reply #48 from Elemental Forums Top

Well here the tough parts, now i dont know how far they will go with this even if they will listen to players or not. When i played Master of Magics it was ok, but lack of interests. After that i played Lords of Magics, prob the best game i ever played back then along with Planescape: Torment. When you define elementals and having more than one types besure to have solid infos about them as well what connected to that elementals. Here some details down below the way i think it should be like, some will agreed and some may not...

Elemental of Air: Frost Gaints, Ice Dragons, Tundra Terrains and Heroes. Opposite of Air -> Earth

Elemental of Earth: Gnomes and Dwarves, Ancient Dragons, Dirt/Rough Terrains and Heroes. Opposite of Earth -> Air

Elemental of Water: Lizardmen, Sea Monsters, near Swamp/Lake/Ocean Terrains and Heroes. Opposite of Water -> Fire

Elemental of Fire: Fire Gaints, Demons, Red Dragons, Desert/Fallout Terrains and Heroes. Opposite of Fire -> Water

Elemental of Order: Humans, Angels, Plain Terrains and Heroes. Opposite of Order -> Chaos

Elemental of Chaos: Nomads, Beasts, Plain/Dirt Terrains and Heroes. Opposite of Chaos -> Order

Elemental of Life: Elves, Fairy Dragons, Grassland/Meadow Terrains and Heroes. Opposite of Life -> Death

Elemental of Death: Dark Elves/Undeads, Bone/Ghost Dragons, Dirt/Desert/Fallout Terrains and Heroes. Opposite -> Life

 

That what i was thinking about and it seem logical and straight forward. All these factions that are opposite consider hate each others while neutral to others. Dilpomacy and Espionage as well as Religions that change the face of the world.

 

Hope this help, looking forward to play it someday :)

redindus