for some reason I would of thought the dragon-borne to be Fire/Air, the Dwarves to be Earth/Water, the Humans to be Earth/Air, the Elves to be Air/Water, and the Tieflings to be Earth/Fire

If humans live in plains, then perhaps elves could live in a more richer Grassland, or Veld, or marshland *something* .. with a higher % chance for forests to grow or spread. Will these elves have the ability to build cities/communities in tree-land? (up in the tree-tops, or among the trees, or in the trees?)

//also, on which turn does the sun die and the world ends? xD ... but seriously, your version of the master quest could be for your sovereign to master the cosmic energies (without dying or growing mad) and "save" the sun, by either some-how recreating the dying sun or replacing it with a new one using powerful dimensional energies to do a quick "switchout"

DnD as a system for mass combat has been something that has always sort of intrigued me. Chirmaya was going to port DnD to Elemental, but he/she disappeared... scared away by forum trolls, I imagine.

So is your objective to unfreeze the world? To restore the sun? You talked about a sandbox game but I don't know what that means in the context of a turn based strategy game. You mean skirmish, right?

The one thing I do like about 4ed is the way the default world is post-apocalyptic... in a way. Islands of civilization in a world of monsters. It really lends itself to an Elemental mod.

Anyways, good luck with this. I'll be eager to see how this shapes up.

hmm ... I wonder if terraforming/melting the snow will only be a temporary fix, as it will eventually freeze back (but of course if you make a plain a mountain it will stay a mountain) I suppose this could be advantagous to Dragons/Tieflings (cause lava doesn't freeze) and Dwarves (snow) ... and disadvantageous to humans and elves.

of course, you could make such *warm* terraforming (adding plains, grasslands, forests) some-what permanent, and restoring the sun instead of easing terraforming, could be an extremely difficult multi-part quest a la the replacer for Elemental's master quest.

Yeah, the combos are actually a bit weird. Blame the philosophy of the civilizations in part of it. The other part of the blame is mine due to my inability to focus those civilizations in a concrete mold yet. 

Tieflings as example, I suppose that for Tieflings that are awakening their devilish ancestry as a way of survival and world domination, Earth and Fire would seem better. But I'd associate Devils to Air rather than to Earth, being more of the sneaky side of things (and my miind associating earth to being blunt, which sounds more like a demon).

I could concede on the elves though. Associating water with mobility, elves seem perfect. But I choose earth instead because of all the druidic aspect of the society (damn druids not being in the first book... clerics will do for now). As we get to know more about the magic system and if we can create intereting hybrids, I'm more than happy to change things for the better (and I have no trouble changing Lore as long as it's for something that improves the setting).

Edit (argh, people posting before I do ):
The Master Quest is quite simple: Restore the Sun. Or at least, it'll be one of the Master Quests. I'd like, if possible, to have a few alternatives. The world still has an invasion from the Underdark, no good gods alive... And if I were a professional of this and could have various planes, those Quests would involve all those planes. *nod**nod*

"The final countdown" to the end of the world is not considered yet. But to have it depend on some quests and the actions of the players would be better than just "100 turns to go". We'll see.

I don't remember right now Chirmaya's thread so I cannot comment right now. I think it was in the line of a... er... Fantasy Grounds?

The sandbox refers to play random games using the civilizations of Dying Sun (and the related quests, heroes...). A campaign map can be very good but in the end it's mostly the same everytime you play it (I still love Lords of the Realm though).

I started this as a campaign for D&D 4Ed after reading those preview books (the only bad thing about those books being that you had to pay). Considering that I haven't played any roleplaying game in more than two years due to several reasons, better use that work somewhere where it fits naturally (Sovereigns being the only new thing, quite a big thing too).

The freezing is natural, the means of the Sovereigns are not. If a territory is under a Sovereign influence, it'll turn into that Sovereign's type. If unaligned, it'll revert to snow (or should). I still need to polish the relation of these beings and the sun (Sovereigns being alien to the original concept, I want to make sure everything fits and makes sense). Quests and spells should help in that.

Sounds like an interesting idea for a mod. The basics shouldn't be that difficult to implement, substituting frozen lands for the wasteland and adding the different races.

But i don't realy understand how you plan to use the DnD classes. Do you plan to have every unit that is produced to be one of the classes available to their race? Because doing this for heroes i understand, but the way you discribe it you want to use the same system for the regular troops aswell. Then how are they different from your heroes? Also, does this mean that you could for instance train a squad of ten, or a hundred, wizards? Stupid question maybe, but i'm just not sure what you mean

Also, do you plan on having several factions for each race?

In theory, I'd like that whenever you create a new unit for your civilization, it has a list of available classes for that civilization*. They are training and should work like the skills/upgrades in Civ IV. I foresee the finetuning of these skills to be a headache but at least a fun headache. I don't pretend to use all the exploits/skills of the D&D game, not for normal unit neither for heroes, but just some that I consider interesting. Heroes would have access to more variety in skills though. At this point I see the skills like simple bonuses. I'd like to have some that really do something more than that but at this point I prefer not to consider that yet. It's just too soon so I'll start simple and see how it goes.

So I want Heroes and Units to be actually quite the same (if I were using D&D 3.0 or 3.5, I'd be using NPC classes from the Dungeon's Master Guide for units though, like warriors, adepts...). The difference is that Heroes should have more skills available for more customization at level up. And I'm not considering a system that allows to promote a normal unit into hero but if I were to do it, sharing classes would make it easier, I believe.

About que Wizards: yeah, you could train a 100 wizards if you wished. In that sense it feels like good old Master of Magic. But don't expect the training time of a wizard to be the same of a fighter. Or the cost. And all those things could change from one civilization to another.

Different factions for each race would be sweet. But as a starting point, and considering that there are more races in other books (Devas or Goliaths in Player's Handbook 2, Drows in Forgotten Realms, Warforged in Eberron...), I have chosen to have some token representation to start with. I have tried to base them into races of the first book (the one I had when creating the campaign anyway) and that are important enough in the game world when the events start. Tieflings (still with name for their Empire pending, sorry) are for sure quite important as a force of evil in Earth but there are many Tieflings who don't serve that Empire and/or follow those ideals. Humans are the most easy to split into factions and for sure that I'd love to have at least another one. But in the end it's a matter of story and making sure that I'm adding something different. If Minor Civilizations are possible a la Galactic Civilizations II, be ready for lots of them (could be used as test before considering them to Mayor Civilization role).

* There could be some unlockable ones, that you could research... at this point those ideas are not considered. And if they were, I'd prefer to limit such choices to Paragon or Epic paths.

Curse you and your hypothetical mods, Wintersong! I have no idea if I should add them to the list of Elemental mods or not

This is the only mod for which I have created a thread so that should give you a pointer. And even then, I'd wait to it have some bones and meat before adding it anywhere. I want to make this mod (obviously) but right now it just wishful thinking and some really wonderful art from Wizards of the Coast (hmmm possible civilization?). Which reminds me that I should sharpen my pencils and try drawing something someday. WotC art as proxy is really cool but surely I'll need some custom and specific art for some things ("And people cried blood when they saw his creations...." ).

I would play that mod.

Alright, I'll wait a little while. But I'll be very disappointed if I don't get to add this to the list because you gave up So you better make this mod!

One thing about DnD 4e: it has no NPC classes because there are "no rules" for NPCs. A dwarf character and a dwarf from the monster manual are designed in totally different ways (basically one has a pretty solid set of rules and the other can be nearly anything inside a dwarf form).

Haha. Well, I'd like to keep my feet on solid ground. I know for a fact that most of the mods are never finished by a variety of reasons: from desinterest to simply lack of time. This is the first time I try to make a mod "for the public", so I'm just trying to take it cautiously. And considering that modding won't be possible for a long while, I can only get some ideas ready for when the moment comes. Oh, and meanwhile let you know.

The following is, obviously, a work in progress. I prefer not to think in the many times I'm going to be rewriting this stuff (that I have been rewriting a few times) until this is finished.

Potential civilizations

Bael Turath

Tiefling empire named after the old Bael Turath empire of the ancients times. The tiefling warlock Bryseis recovered the ancient scrolls that contained the original pacts of the humans of Bael Turath and unlocked their magic to guarantee the survival of her people.

Namaeth

Cut off from the Feywild by the eladrin lords, the remaining of the elves struggled to survive until the elven druid Shava appeared and with her the earth was brought to life with each of her steps.

Altesia

The lands of Altesia had suffered greatly by the events of the Astral Wars and were filled with roaming beasts and bandits. A young human farmer named Alain heard the call of Bane of bringing peace to their lands and war to their enemies. The young cleric carved his place in Altesia in the blood and flesh of his enemies until he freed Altesia of internal threats and united it under his command and the worship of Bane.

Dal Thormaer

Expelled from the mountains after losing a series of wars against astral abominations and creatures of the Underdark, the dwarves had to look for a new home in the harsh and frozen surface. The dwarven warlord Baern united the remains of the clans and taught them of a new way, stablishing their new capital in the old ruins of a forgotten human kingdom.

Drekhatar

With the death of the Platinum Dragon and the last of the good dragons, the dragonborn felt hopeless and without purpose. With the end of the Astral Wars and shortly after the rumored raise of the new Bael Turath, the dragonborn paladin Heskan appeared bearing the mark of the Platinum Dragon and united them under his banner to fight what was to come.

Ghezzra

The peaceful people from Urden had a long history of abuses by other more powerful neighbors and the situation got worse when their lands became less affected than that of their neighbors by the bad weather. An unidentified avanger appeared and stirred the flames of hatred and vengenace on the normally peaceful people of Urden. He promised them retribution and no more abuses by their enemies. He promised the people of Urden that them and their bloodlines would survive. He promised them that all the unworthy would perish. And they killed for him.

Kathra Daeth

Exiled from her Kingdom, the dwarven Kathra founded her own clan with all those females that believed in her cause of gender equality. From the very beginning the amazons of Kathra Daeth have faced a slow extinction that they have accepted with stoicism. But the arrival of the dwarven Shaman Eldeth and the waves of exiles from the dwarven kingdoms have changed everything.

Frozenheart

When the blizzards ravaged his Kingdom, King Ruric commanded the performing of a ritual suggested by one of his counsellors and that would save the lifes of everybody in the kingdom. The ritual in reality was a necromancy ritual that turned every living being in Frozenheart into an undead being, from lowly zombie peasants to vampiric nobles. King Ruric still rules and athough he only cares about controlling his servants and keeping his lands as they are, not everybody agrees. Specially the vampires who need fresh blood to survive and have to resort to different means to obtain the food they need.

The Red Tower

This tower controlled by wizards has become a beacon of hope for many due to their ability to produce magical food resistant to frost. Their control of the sorrounding lands has increased quickly as refugees seek shelter under their protection and trade with other settlements allows them to get the few things they need. The living conditions are hard as slavery is favored greatly by the wizards, slaves being one of the things they trade their magical food for, but it's better than the conditions in wild.

Units

Levels

The units should have different level caps depending of the type. If it's a normal unit, the level cap should be 10. The Sovereign should have it at level 30. Heroes should be 30 too. Somehow I feel tempted of limiting Heroes to level 20 so the Sovereign really becomes the Epic character of the civilization but it'd not feel so heroic and not everybody would like to prefer to focus (only) in the Sovereign.

Powers

The normal units should get a basic power along with their initial class training. Each time they level up they should get a new power or bonus. The point that it's not clear at this moment is the Veteran and similar trainings that actually the units can get. Considering the nature of the D&D, for me it doesn't make sense to give the level 1 troops better stats keeping the level. Although it could be seen as better than usual characters (stats wise during character creation), seems more fitting to alter those trainings to make them alter the initial level of the troops along with the bonuses. For example, a veteran fighter could start at level 3 and an elite one at level 5.

To have some powers to be actually real attacks could be nice but they will just be stackable bonuses. So if he soldier has a power that gives him +2 to attack and according to the D&D books it's an "At Will" power, it'd stack with another one that gives +2 to damage and that according to the D&D books is a "Daily Exploit".

Different civilizations should get different powers for the same classes whenever it's possible. That should allow more differentation between them.

Equipment

Problem that I face actually is: what if I want to make archers? Fighters are usually seen as close combat damage dealers that they can be also archers. Rangers can choose between dual wielding or archery. Rogues, if included as an unit option, can be archers too.

If I choose Ranger as training for one of the elves of Namaeth, I could allow him to equip two swords for close combat and to be equipped with bows for ranged one. But what about powers? If he specializes in dual wielding, the powers shouldn't say anything about bows. Which means that I should control that once he pickes a power of one of those branches he doesn't get to choose again from the other branch, or that I should offer two Ranger training options and he would only get powers of the proper training. The last option I mentioned previously sounds better to me somehow but if I'm to include many classes later, it canbecome a very long list. Specially with Warlock pacts and similars.

In any case, as there are no special attacks of any type but stackable bonuses, it's not a big issue (I suppose). It'd be good to have special attacks though. After all, having my 100 Wizards casting Magic Missile from level 1 to level 10 is not so fun even if that Magic Missile scales in damage. Fortunate those Hero and Sovereign casters that surely will be able to have many spells by default.

Quests

Although events might be easier to create that new powers/skills for units and similar details, I think that this part is going to be quite difficult. The difficulty lies in several different areas, the most important one being to make them good from a reading point of view. At this point I think that quests should be one of the last things to do (ok, the very last one would be things like models for the damn Dragonborn or Tieflings... or Warforged? or Shifter? or Lizardfolk? or...?).

General Quests

Most quests should be general for any civilization and as fitting as possible to the theme of the setting. Hmmm Deadly and always with twisted ending? Something in the lines of: "Go kill 10 winter rats.", you know.

Specific Quests

There should be some specific quests for each civilization. Especially important for the Master Quest. I won't know exactly which type of quests until the civilizations are fleshed properly but it's something to consider. About the Master Quest, I suppose that it shouldn't been too difficult to add more than one (tags or whatever). Although the basic Main Quest should be that or bringing the Sun to life again (as in the original concept of the campaign, supposing the PCs went the goody route), other types of Master Quests should be possible. Surely, undead would survive to the death of the sun (yeah, I don't like undead but a playable undead civilization is too cool to ignore) and if the Sovereign is too selfish to care about Earth, godhood can be a good solution for his problems (there is always the Feywild).

Those specific quests should have some level requirements associated to make sure that they only appear when there is always someone capable of completing them (Master Quest neededing most probably a level 30 Sovereign... although by itself I don't like that and would revise the idea later).

Consequences

Every quest must have a consequence. Some can be direct like "Get 100 Crowns", "Morale in your cities +10 during 10 turns" or "Inmune to 'rat Plague' during 20 turns". Others could offer (included as extra "reward") to unlock other new quests. Branching in the quest lines would be extremely interesting but has the usual problem of increasing the developing time (and stressing the brain!). Glad this is a mod. But it could be cool if the evil Bryseis can end in the good side (or neutral) due to her choices during a quest chain.

WoE (World of Earth)

Weather

The idea of Sovereigns changing the surface of the planet creates some interesting scenarios that were not in the original campaign (not that there were not lava terrain [Bael Turath] or plains/jungles but it was static terrain). It also adds difficulty to some of the original ideas. In any case, I should try the world to reflect what's going on.

A weather system would be excellent but due to the nature of the changing terrains, I don't see it happening. That said, snow terrain should deal damage to any unit in it each turn. Or that was one of the first ideas when traslating the campaign into this mod. There are pros and cons about it.

The world is not 24/7 covered in deadly blizzards. It's cold but there are also moments of calm that can last quite long. Unit receiving damage each turn they are in snow terrain would represent the dangers of cold and all that. Maybe some events that for a few turns increase that damage could represent bad weather. Some units would be naturally immune to that damage (or recieve less damage) for different reasons. Like dwarves being tough or White Dragons being in their element.

In the same way, lava terrain could have similar effects due to the heat, dehidratation or whatever. But although called lava, that terrain only seem to have rivers as such and the rest could have more normal temperatures?

Resources

Resources should consider the terrain too. Fertile Land patches that don't appear in snow but do so in plains is one example. Not sure of how easy could be and not sure if a snow based Sovereign conquers that city, what should happen with the tile: destroyed by the snow? It survives?

Another idea, that won't probably be appearing or that might need to appear only if it's made optional, is that some resources should deplete. Nothing adds to the feeling of end of the world like having your mines exhausted one by one, having less and less resources to survive with. Just my opinion. Access to other planes could prevent such thing but as we won't get them (by default)...

Other resources as forests (for wood) should be able to be increased (so elves can have lots of forests to play in).

Buildings

Not talking exactly about the types of buildings but about where you can place them.

So the dwarves of Dal Thormaer are exiled from their original territories but it doesn't mean they could not go back and build in the mountains again. Or the elves of Namaeth in the forests. Be it naturally and/or due to research, some civilizations should be able to build things where others cannot.

I'm going to suppose that buildings can be built in places "where the tags match" or something like that. That would make things easier, I suppose. Visually it could be weird though. I'm thinking of those underground cities in the mountains...

But if there were extra planes, underground cities would go in the underground plane leaving only one square in the surface to indicate the entrance to the city. Forest cities would remain unchanged. Aquatic cities would work like the underground ones, sharing map with them. But currently there are no plans of "aquatic adventures", especially if we consider that Stardock is going to focus on the land based action, which leaves the seas open to expansion (pun?) or mod. But I'd miss to be able to use somehow Kuo Toas and similars.

4th Edition?

I'm disappointed in you, Wintersong. So very disappointed.

I would've considered such silly all-out complete clown-parade bonkers retardation beneath you.

In the effort of organizing better the work, sometime in the future there will be specialist posts containing blocks of information that will be updated from time to time as there is new information to update.

The Dying Sun's Campaign Guide is where playable civilizations are collected. Civilizations, their style, the Sovereigns... I have currently 12 candidate civilizations that could be playable. Only 5 of those are Priority 1, which means that of those 12 only 5 are doable with little modding and/or conversion from the D&D rules.

The Sovereign's Guide is where all the world stuff goes. Be it lore, rules specific to world generation, NPC civilizations...

The Monster Manual is where I add the different monsters to be used in the game. It's going to contain any individual unit used in the game and should include all the data associated to each of them. Right now the list is just too big for my liking, specially considering that I still haven't checked the Monster Manual 2 and otehr details.

There are so many possible AD&D spin offs with this game... Im looking forward to a AD&D Birthright spin off.

I love the Elemental DnD books!

That would be really sweet.

(note to self: careful with the copy&paste of absolute positioned divs XD)

The use of Sovereigns clashes with the main concept of the Dying Sun in many places while fitting perfectly in others. Some serious consideration must be done related to the mod to decide their final fate.

The setting of the Dying Sun started after reading those preview books of the 4E. I love those situations in which you can have a sneak peek behind the courtain of how things are made or decided. I loved the ideas and found their decisions reasonable. I wanted to make use of such ideas and from what I have read of the 4E rules, it was better than the 3E or 3.5E.

When deciding what I wanted to do, one of the things that reall caught my attention was that of Angels killing a god and taking his power to then being imprisoned and transformed in Devils. And how those same Devils were scheming constantly to break their prison. So something based on a distant future where they actually succeded seemed quite interesting. And as I'm not shy when borrowing from the books I have read, I decided to use some ideas. I liked a lot the frozen world in which Erekose finds himself in one of his "travels" and in which the sun is dying (2+2...). That idea was reinforced by my favourite trilogy: The Darwath Trilogy (altough I read in the internets that Hambly wrote a couple of books more of the same characters). In that trilogy, the world is assaulted by dark creatures that feed on the humans (only sentient race of the books, forget about elves) while the protagonists must suffer one of the worst winters in centuries and must seek refuge in a ancient tower.

The world started as a cold wasteland with some points of light in the form of survivors in caves, small zones that weren't so affected by the weather (the last green zones) and others that had used magic to survive where they were (The Red Tower, Bael Turath...). No good gods alive, hostile enviroment and survivors... All should make the heroes feel like heroes. Or at least, feel like they are of those few still ready to make a difference in the world (be it to save it or to doom it). Happy endings in the quests weren't forbidden but they were supposed to not feel as too happy. Bad endings were to be bad and good ones should be twisted whenever possible (still being somehow good) to increase the sensation of despair that permeates the world. Something in the lines of "the lesser of two evils"? It'd be the players' actions who could change that slowly to the very end of the campaign where they could save the world. Or even if they were to succumb in the process, open the road for other heroes that could follow their example of courage in those dark times.

That was the idea. And with character based in the Player's Handbook. That means no Essence, no bringing the earth to live... No Sovereigns. The very inclusion of Sovereigns as Elemental does, changes quite many things to be considered. I could just ignore it but I like the idea and surely it helps in random map generation.

To know if Sovereigns should really be in the game and in which way they should be, I need to know who they are and which is their role. In a universe in which devils shattered the equilibrium and forced the main plain to die slowly, these beings that can shape the land to their will are something quite amazing. The power of a really powerfull entity. Yet these Sovereigns start at level 1. They could be reborn gods and this idea has some interesting potential. But I would prefer if Sovereigns had different origins to their powers. The new Bael Turath was supposed to rebirth thanks to the Tieflings being able to find the ancient scrolls that gave power to the old Bael Turath before its fall. Altesia could take it city founding powers by the fact that they worship the god Bane (even if they are Neutral and Bane is Evil). But what of Dal Thormaer? Those dwarves don't have protecting gods or poweful magic. So in theory, dwarves should be able to build anywhere without affecting the sorrounding land type and with no Essence cost.

Baern, the dwarven Sovereign, could be might oriented unlike Brysies of Bael Turath. He wouldn't have the fancy powers of Brysies and would just provide some bonuses to his people and be like a (powerful) hero. I have no idea if it'd be possible to make a Sovereign that unlike the others in play, doesn't affect terrain when building cities and still gets influence. Surely somehow it'd be doable. And surely a pain in the ass too. But it would be interesting. But the problem are the "magic" Sovereigns so back to them.

The land change ability of Sovereigns makes the enviroment less hostile, which obviously goes against the idea of the world of Dying Sun of being highly hostile. Yeah, wandering monsters and events can still reinforce that feeling but people living in plains is going to have an easier life that someone having to survive in the snow. And from a mechanics point of view, I would like to have snow terrain to deal damage each turn to units/population. But if Sovereigns use a different type of land, their citizens would be inmune to that. And how is that people going to feel despair when their living conditions have been improved so much? And if the natural state of the world is to be cold because of the dying sun, it seems quite a feat to keep a part of the world as plains (warm and all). What's next? That if the sun dies the plains will go on with the difference of no sunlight? Why worry about the sun then? Those are some serious argumens against Sovereigns.

Dying Sun has other threats than just the sun. So even if we have civilizations that would survive to its death, they would still have other threats that could end with them. So even if Shava, druid leader of Namaeth, can turn the whole world into a green garden of plains instead of snow and manage to have the land survive to the death of the sun and the darkness that would follow, she would still have a little problem of evil creatures: undead, drow, mind flayers... Surviving to the weather doesn't mean to survive to hostile creatures. This point at least serves to admit that Sovereigns can have a place because not everything is just about the weather. The world's weather is a tool and other means should be used for the same results when not possible to use it.

So back to the origins of Sovereigns' power. Not only because it defines how the Sovereign can do the cool things he can do but also because it should have a heavy impact in the "faction" quests. For starters and for easiness, I'll have to assume that every Sovereign is a magic one for one reason or another. And their powers are fueled by that magic (land type change or spells). Later development could end with one or more Sovereigns being might based but at this point I'll stick to the magical origins.

As previously said, Bryseis could have unnatural powers based on the ancient scrolls she found and that gave her access to rituals unkown to everyone else. Shava, as a druid, could have attuned herself so much with the world that could create miracles such defying weather and reshape the land. Valyar, amazon shaman leader of Kalan Daeth, would be similar to Shava but empowered by the spirits that inhabit the world and that want to protect it from destruction. Alain, High Cleric of Bane from Altesia, as said before would be favored by Bane and use the divine power to alter weather patterns and make his lands safer for his followers. Baern, warlord leader of Dal Thormaer, could be a reborn god waiting to unlock his true potential. And so on (with the possibility of some Sovereigns having common origins and when I say common I mean the possibility of some Sovereigns sharing origin events, not just origins similar in shape). With some effort, Sovereigns can be adapted to fit the world better and explain their terrain changing powers (the land is alive, just frozen!) and other stuff.

Having different origins also help quests being unique to each faction. It's not just "We are an elven civilization" or "We are the last humans left.". It also adds specific layers that can be mixed with those of other Sovereigns and that can customize their approach to normal quests and the Master Quest greatly. Different approachs for the same types of quests, choices only available to some origins, choices that can lead to alingment shifts... Not that these things depend of Sovereigns working as in Elemental but they are spiced by them.

At this point in time, Sovereigns working as in Elemental are to be used. Not just because I like the concept. Even with the problems they suppose for the flavor of setting, instead of trying to force the original concept (the temptation is there), it's better to make it evolve to accept something that I see as potentially very good and interesting. I could be wrong and/or find future problems that could change my mind. But right now, Sovereigns are in and ready to kick ass.

So now that I have solved this problem that was haunting me lately, it's time to start thinking about other detail that haunts me: units like in Master of Magic or like in Elemental? The D&D feeling seems better using s system a la Master of Magic but I'm not sure...

Hmm... your DnD campaign seems pretty dark for my tastes...

You know, it wouldn't hurt to inject a little hope... to be fair I am partial to the cold, but to have everything bad and worse would get a little depressing... that's what I'd think, anyway.

Give me grimdark, or give me death!

*cough**cough*

The theme of the campaign (rpg wise) was to be dark. It was meant to have the characters as the true focus of the whole game. Good NPCs? Yes, there are some (some even powerful) but most people are just evil, have surrendered to the situation... Hope is dying as the sun does and only the player characters can make a difference.

Heroes were supposed to be the hope of the world... if they didn't surrender and decide to go neutral/evil. That would have doomed the world but no sense to force players (specially if they consider that the experiences of their characters make them evolve in such way). But if they wanted to really save the world (one step at a time), then it should be costly because... IT'S THE END OF TIMES, BABY!!!! Lines between good and evil are supposed to be not just blurred but sometimes not even exist (only evil). As the characters gain levels, lines should have become more clear and happy endings become actually more satisfying. That wouldn't have prevented truly happy endings at low levels though (we all like to have some pure fun and winner feelings from time to time even if the setting is pitch black, and that's the duty of the Dungeon Master to his players).

From a TBS point of view, there is no Dungeon Master so there is no way to actually dinamically control the tone to satisfy the players. And that's quite an important detail. The mod should have a dark feeling to it. If someone tells me "Dark Sun", I think of deserts and fight for survivial. Ravenloft? Terror, vampires, night... If someone says "Dying Sun", I'd love if the words used to describe it are what the setting is supposed to be and not just "Elemental D&D mod". That said, the mod should be playable. If players don't want to play it because it gets on their nerves... well, that might be a problem to be analized. As a Dungeon master I'd tone down the mod of the setting for my players (which I personally have known for many years anyway) while keeping it "in character". For the TBS something similar should be considered but not sure of exactly how and if it's really needed (yet?). Why? Because you cannot please everybody!!!

Book of the day: Clark Ashton Smith's Zothique.

I wrote this some weeks ago and reading it again today I must say that unfortunately I still agree with myself.

D&D uses classes as the base system to define characters. I want normal units to be based on such classes but maybe such thing would work better with a MoM approach of giving you premade units to play with.

When deciding to create a D&D mod based on the Elemental engine, I wanted to make a mod that has a strong D&D flavor but that was still Elemental(ly flavored). As a personal choice, I want units to use the classes of the Player's Handbook (1,2,3...) that make sense. It could be said that they shouldn't because they are PC classes but in those stories of the lost child that survived by himself, I wonder who the hell trained him in the ranger class: the wolves? the trees? I prefer the approach of those classes being the classes for normal people too. There might be "lesser classes" too but that's another story.

The basic idea is that when creating your own units, you must asign them a training (Class Training). That training determines the class (Dual-Blade Ranger, Avenging Paladin...) and the possible skills when leveling up. It should determine which equipment the unit can be equipped with (when creating it and when reequipping it). The initial idea is to limit those basic units to 10 levels. To allow them more would mean entering the Paragon path and I'd prefer to leave those levels for Heroes and the Sovereign, to keep that feeling of Heroes being (with time) more powerful than the normal masses.

The basic system doesn't consider things like the Sovereign or other Channeler spending Essence in a troops to give it spellcasting abilities. If you select Wizard Training for the unit, it can cast (at least?) a spell while your Fighter won't. It could happen that a Fighter could be imbued with Essence and all that, but I'd consider that something extra added to the unit that doesn't actually change his class, or make him a Sword Mage or something.

I feel like being careful with that option about Essence as I'm not quite sure of the possible real impact it could have in such a system, so I don't discard the possibility of modding out the imbuing part. Or totally scrap this class system.

Once considered the basic idea to use to create new units, it's time to check the basic classes that can be used as class trainings. Classes aren't just one path but many. It's not the same to choose Dual-Blade Ranger than Archer Ranger. That means that Class Training should reflect that and when creating the unit I shouldn't get a Ranger Training but a Dual-Blade Ranger and a Archer Training. But I happen to check the Paragon Paths and see many cool ones and it saddens me that only Heroes can be one of those. They feel more special in that way but at the same time it doesn't make much sense not to have units of those types (even in fewer numbers for being "elite"). But the only way to allow normal units access to those paths would be to raise their level cap to 20 which I already stated that I don't like. Personal preferences aside, it wouldn't be so bad and Heroes and Sovereigns would still have 10 levels more (21-30) to shine. Or to "shorten" the level requirements for normal units (like level 6, with all the proper adjustments to skills). But this last option doesn't convince me much.

The other solution and that would save me many many headaches would be to have premade units for the civilizations. It wouldn't allow custom units, research would unlock new unit types and the units would be divided in Basic, Advanced and Elite. All the Elite units would be of Paragon Paths. All would come at level 1 (unless you get to train them for extra experience), a predefined equipment and skills. This approach is more in line with Master of Magic than with Elemental and would solve lots of problems and probably not causing any (I hope?). It would be then a matter of giving each civilization a set of units (from basic classes and paragon paths) that fit the role and theme of the civilization. Much like Master of Magic just that here we have D&D.

Problems with this approach is that units are already stablished, you cannot upgrade them. While with the Elemental method you can keep producing basic foot soliders with the latest equipment (like those marvellous Frogium swords you just researched), the basic foot soldiers with the Master of Magic method are always the same. The only way to prevent that would be to generate extra premade units based on possible improvements which in the end would be nothing more than clutter in the recruitment screen or do something a la Alchemist Tower and have all the new units come already upgraded with the latest equipment. This last option would be a good solution but would prevent the player from creating underequiped units (like training your soldier with Boogium swords instead of the Frogium swords) when he needs cheaper units as cannon fodder (something that Elemental allows and is nice).

So it seems that premade units is the way to go. They make things easier, allow "Elite" units with Paragon Paths without making me feel guilty, using an "Alchemist Tower" effect I can keep them upgraded without a spam of premade designs and can be still capped at level 10 which helps to make Heroes more awesome (it's D&D, Heroes are supposed to kick ass and save the world).

Yet I cannot decide myself for any of them. Maybe I should use the Elemental way because it's more flexible. Or maybe that's not reason enough and the true and tested Master of Magic way is best. It could be that the only true problem is my negative to allow basic units to reach level 20. Maybe when we get Heroes and tactical battles I discover that capping units in such way creates a huge balance problem with heroes. Or maybe change Paragon Paths to "normal class" level for mod purposes and have units from level 1 to 10 that can use those Paragon Paths as Class Training (more difficult/expensive though).

I simply have no clue about what to do and this blocks many things that I should be considering. For the time being, I'll stick to the default Elemental system.

man, I appreciate all your effort Wintersong.  I'm a little sad you didn't pick a more role-playing oriented system (as Luckmann expressed) but then again, I guess we don't know enough about the world at this point to justify it.

I'd be interested in running as normal heirs to the kingdoms/empires having to deal with the constant political/magical BS between the channelers.  I imagine having such powerful beings running the world would create some interesting dynamics in those directly related to them.  Especially when the channeler is trying to marry them off and make them go on quests.

• The system of Vampire: The Masquerade (Dark Ages or not) would seem better maybe? Although it's the game where I have seen the worse slaughters ever. (shame D&d, shame!) And it's not like I can actually use much of the info per se.
• Legend of the Five Rings would be wonderful with Sovereigns being some kind of Kami and all the interesting system used in the RPG. But unless I get art assets that fit that (not holding breath about it), I don't see it happening. Not that I could not adapt L5R to a western enviroment keeping the spirit of the game (battles, duels, court, honour, sacrifice...) but my experience talks of many people being closed minded to such an "alien" culture. *shrug* Would be interesting though. (I tried for Civ IV but my noobness defeated me and I desisted)
• The old Warhammer Fantasy (I don't know the new one) seems interesting but I'm not interested in it for a mod. Especially when other people will do it for sure (and do it better).
• Anima Beyond Fantasy has some potential but it's a great deviation from what we get in Elemental and would require extensive investigation about what could be done with it (and in the end it's a Rolemaster lighter in weight and anime like in style).
• The other systems I know doesn't fit very well (Mekton Z, All Flesh Must Be Eaten, Macross II, Anno Domini, GUMSHOE system be it Great C or Esoterrorists, Traveller and possibly others I don't remember but that I have at least read).

But if you think that there is a system I should know about and that could be interesting, let me know. The story is always independent of the mechanics (influenced by its limits though) and at this point (and with delayed betas) I'm more than in time to reconsider anything as long as it benefits the mod. In the worse case scenario, I'll have something to read and from which to draw ideas.

Did I ever say that I have my own RPG system? Unfinished but I have it.

The idea you comment seems interesting but quite complex. Sovereigns would be like some kind of distant figures that rule things while you control one of the heirs (and later it's blood line?). But what would you be doing in such game? My mind keeps falling into the RPG territory, not the TBS one. Unless we get a game with normal heirs as rules with Sovereigns being like "Mega Events" that happen from time to time to shake things a bit.