Darvin3 Darvin3

All I really want from Diplomacy is...

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All I really want from Diplomacy is...

from Sins Forums

All I really want from Diplomacy is two things:

  1. More robust and strategic diplomacy system
  2. New content that makes the civic tech path dangerous

Oh sure, there are plenty of other things I'd like.  I've already made my rant about how the AI needs improvement, I'd like to see more cunning pirates, and there are countless other little things.  However, these two priorities above all else are what I want to get out of Diplomacy.

 

I've been discussing my concerns about the diplomacy system for some time now.  The problem currently is that there is never any reason to backstab someone.  Oh, sure, you can backstab someone and the AI does have an arbitrary relationship number that might encourage it to break alliances, but rationally speaking there is no reason to ever do this when you could just remain allies all game.  I like the new mission system in concept, but in practice so long as we can safely form large and permanent alliances there will be no real political subterfuge.  

There have already been many players calling for a limit to the number of winners in unlocked teams.  This is one way of ensuring that large teams have to break up at some point, but so long as there is something that gives rational reason for breaking alliances.

 

Secondly, I want to see something that makes the civic tech path dangerous.  Currently there is virtually no threat presented by civic tech.  Oh yes, you can improve your economy which lets you buy more military units, but let's be clear: the threat is the military units that your economy is feeding, not the economy itself.  Culture does present a minor threat, but it's easily mitigated and takes a long time to do anything anyways.  The only exceptions are Vasari with phase stabilizers (now THOSE are dangerous) and Advent that has PJI's on the harmony tech path for some reason.

What I want to see are technologies that present a threat; something that can seriously undermine an opponent's strategic position.  Technologies that increase extractor income or pacts that increase weapon damage don't count; these are just scalar bonuses to your military, either enabling you to make it bigger or stronger.  Want I want to see is a civic technology that presents a threat in and of itself. 

Right now, if I build 2 military labs and 5 civic labs, I will get murdered by someone who built 5 military labs and 2 civic labs.  The simple fact is that the technology made accessible by the military labs (heavy cruisers or repulse for instance) are extremely difficult to counter with low-level military techs.  There is nothing in the civic tech tree that even begins to match up to the power offered by those military technologies.  What I want to see are civic technologies that present strategic threats to the enemy that are difficult to counter with low-level civic technology.

 

Anyways, I've rambled enough.  That's all I really want out of Diplomacy.  I could care less how this is done, but that's what I want to see

94,767 views 62 replies
Reply #51 from Sins Forums Top

What if the defense tree was linked to civics?

Not sure how much that would achieve. Aside from Vasari with repair bays in the defense tree, it's entirely possible to play an aggressive rush game without touching it. Starbases, perhaps, but by the time you're trying to put up one of those you probably already have ice/volcanic techs, so it's only one lab away anyways.

It could work, but I'd prefer something entirely new that fits the theme of diplomacy, which is why I prefer the pact and espionage suggestions.

Darvin, I believe this and similar suggestions came from you second want which is to make the civic path more dangereous. As you said if you build 2 mil and 5 civic you get crushed. I didn't see this question as simply limited to the diplomacy/pact system. Just for the sake of argument what would you get if the defense/security/fortification techs where made available with a combination of militar/civic labs without any changes to the tech trees.

A civic based Vasari player would have early access to colony pods, merchant cargo bays for their economy. The vasari player would also have early access to disruptor nanites, Phasic trap, reintegration and phase stabilizers.

A civic based Advent player would have early access to merchant docks, evangilization nodes, and induced reference. The advent player would also have early access to shield bestowal, mass dissorientation and meteroid control.

A civic based Tec player would have early access to deep space trade, remote construction and docking booms. The tec player would also have early access to gauss upgrades including meson bolt cannons, safety override protocol, and improved destabalization.

I could see this as a huge benefit when playing unlocked games or locked team games for the player that chooses to build an economic empire first but lags on the military front. IMO the defense techs (tier 4 or higher) are mainly meant to protect the empire, but they require a significant investment in military labs to get to the better techs. If you've laid down 5-6 mil labs you are probably building HC's at this point. I want a solution that allows me to focus on the civic path but lay down signficant defenses (fortification) to protect my investment before I go military if at all.

I also see this as being useful possibly for the player in the suicide position. Currently, if you want to starbase you MUST lay down 2-3 military labs. If you are successful and you run your colonizer cap you are limited to asteroids, terrans and deserts. However, if you could lay down 2-3 civic labs you have access to volcano, ice and culture. Of course this only works if repair bay is moved to defense for all races (as stated above).

Tactical starbase support may be more fun too as you can drop in more useful starbases in allied or enemy territories. For example you can siege with an advent starbase. Remote construction with a TEC base/Docking booms or maybe improved destabilization, etc.

And frankly I'm looking for a reason to research advanced techs past the initial 2-4 labs needed to research trade and culture, lrm's and carriers. We already know you can win most games by building 3 military labs and 3-4 civic labs with minimal research in either. Lets have some fun using some of the defense techs that are rarely used because of the need to go full military.

BTW, you will also need alot of civic labs to get the really useful pacts.

TEC - Trade (4), Missle (5), Siege(6), Armor (7), Supply (8)
Advent - Culture (4), Antimatter (5), Beam (6), Anime (7), Shield (8)
Vasari - Resource (4), Phase Jump Drive (5), Nano Tech (Hull regen) (6), Structure (Hull%) (7), Armament (Rate of fire) (8)

Edit - fixed vasari 6,7,8 pact comments

Reply #52 from Sins Forums Top

I say yay to linking civi to defence. I am a civi player so i mainly reily on cobalts +a kol and a sova early game til i get a massive income going, then i go full military with additional civi tech along the way, so until then my empire is basiclly open to attack. But by the time i go military, I have enough cash to buy and max out 2-3 starbases as well as double my fleet and finally add a marza to my armada. By now I have a run away econemy great military strength plus atleast 1 ally. However before i get going im dead if a fair sized fleet comes busting down my door. Adding defence to the civi labs would help me alot. I'm not just wanting for just me, it would serve a very practical porpose, its is very hard for the civi of an alliance could defend himself. If the civ player could defend himself the military members of the alliance could then focus more of their fleets to attacking the other factions.

Sins of a Solar Empire II
Reply #53 from Sins Forums Top

TEC - Trade (4), Missle (5), Siege(6), Armor (7), Supply (8)
Advent - Culture (4), Antimatter (5), Beam (6), Anime (7), Shield (8)
Vasari - Resource (4), Phase Jump Drive (5), Nano Tech (6), Structure (Hull regen) (7), Armament (Hull%) (Rate of fire) (8)

This is the first time someone has listed all the pacts (I've actually requested this multiple times).  Thanks.

I love the concept of pacts, but I don't like what these pacts are doing.  I want new abilities, new threats, new strategies, not a scalar bonus to existing units.  This still means you have a guy sitting in the pocket specializing eco while everyone else spams military labs and maybe two civics for ice/volcanic access.

Reply #54 from Sins Forums Top

I love the concept of pacts, but I don't like what these pacts are doing. I want new abilities, new threats, new strategies, not a scalar bonus to existing units. This still means you have a guy sitting in the pocket specializing eco while everyone else spams military labs and maybe two civics for ice/volcanic access.

Precisely. All the pacts fit in your OP statement:

Technologies that increase extractor income or pacts that increase weapon damage don't count; these are just scalar bonuses to your military, either enabling you to make it bigger or stronger.

I looked through the diplomacy research and there is not a lot of deviation from techs that simply provide scalar bonuses to the existing military or economic  systems in place.

Now it is still beta and there is atleast one tech worth mentioning.

Vasari has a 7 imperial lab upgrade to envoy cruisors called Grant Amnesty:

Grants the Grant Amnesty ability to Voruntak Envoy Cruisers, allowing them to make an enemy/allied planet invulnerable for a short time.

 

So if you are curious here are some others:

Tech Envoy Cruiser: Arbitrate Tariff (Increase trade), Settlers (Increase population growth), Worth Cause (Collect Donations)
Tech General: Skilled Diplomats (Relationship+), Labor negotiations (Ship/Structure build rate+), Cultural Relations (Relationship 100%), Bounty Hunting (offer missions), Universal Negotations (Offer or demand gifts)

Advent Herald Cruiser: Cultural Assistance (culture+), Sacrifice (sacrifice to sharply increase relations)
Advent General: Vendetta (Offer missions), Overtures (Offer or demand gifts), Persuasive offers(moved), Induced Leniency(moved), Allure of Unity(moved)

Vasari Vorntak Cruiser: Mutual Threat(extraction+), Grant Amnesty(invulnerable planet)
Vasari General: Expert Bounty Hunting(moved), Raider Xenophobia(moved), Xeno-Manipulation(offer missions), Adv. Xeon-Manipulation(offer or demand gifts), Inter-Species Relations(relationship 100%)

Reply #55 from Sins Forums Top

I love the concept of pacts, but I don't like what these pacts are doing. I want new abilities, new threats, new strategies, not a scalar bonus to existing units.

I agree.These pacts should be the sideshow of the main.

This is the first time someone has listed all the pacts (I've actually requested this multiple times). Thanks.

Sorry darvin I thought you had it.

Reply #56 from Sins Forums Top

Grants the Grant Amnesty ability to Voruntak Envoy Cruisers, allowing them to make an enemy/allied planet invulnerable for a short time.

I like this one.  Might need a little bit of refining to get the balance right, but that's what the beta's all about.

Addd more abilities like this, IC!

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Reply #57 from Sins Forums Top

If the relationship level/bonuses would cause a peace treaty(or any pact)  to be accepted (even with human players) by his "government" would that be a sufficient threat?

Of course the "go to war" option still is in the hand of the player but it has a time constraint. If you use this right you can say yeah you gut the guns but your people say you cant use them against me :P.

Also i think culture could use a different impact in this game, so if your people are indoctrinated the are probably more likely to turn there backs on you and leave your empire, or your ships say no we do not fight against this one.

As you can see i would like Civic tecs cause the other player to actually react in civic ways such as building more culture, spending more cash on civic upgrades to satisfy the needs of his people and so on.

But it shouldn't cause the combat units to be totally useless, its more like buying time and harass a player. Only culture should be the weapon of the civic tec tree as it could be able to overtake planets (actually overtake them not letting you just loose it) So if the support on your colonies falls beneath some level there is a chance that this colony falls to the enemy with all infrastructure an probably your stationed  ships.

 

Reply #58 from Sins Forums Top

what about something that prevents mainly military players from moving there ships out of there present locale(planet).summat like pahse computer grid hacking.......so bascially if you send out scouts and find that your enemy are amassing near you ready to attack you can sabotage them for a few minutes so you can counter them?

 

a second though could be something like phase drive batch tampering, like industrial espionage, that randomly gives the same affect as the TEC starbase when phase jumping damaging there fleet when they move from planet to planet possibly killing weaker ships in a retreat.

 

another could be atrittuion damage in high culture planets.nice little civic power.

(sorry if tsomethign similar has already been psoted i got tired of reading all the posts)

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Reply #59 from Sins Forums Top

lol I feel the same way. Its gets annoying reading through all the posts. My vote is armed civi structures, planet defence abilities: example, scorched earth policy (impossible for enemy to colonize your former planet for X minutes), and merc hiring for the civi tech tree.

Reply #60 from Sins Forums Top

lol I feel the same way. Its gets annoying reading through all the posts. My vote is armed civi structures, planet defence abilities: example, scorched earth policy (impossible for enemy to colonize your former planet for X minutes), and merc hiring for the civi tech tree.

Read the entire post plz ;) JK

But these all have been suggested in some detail. There are actually some good suggestions and it's a short thread. You might actually read through some of them :)

Here is the scorched earth suggestion. There are also suggestions for merc hiring, black market ships, access to defense tree with civic or militar labs, etc...



How about adding a Scorched Planet (Scorched Earth Policy) ability to TEC that renders an abandoned planet un-colonizable for x minutes (if you abandoned the planet before they bomb it away). Might fit with the abilities like Heavy Fallout and the Novalith Cannon. This would prevent enemies from colonizing front line planets you retreated from while potentially re-inforcing on a fortified backline planet which you should have the economy for at this point. Activation of this ability would leave logistic/tactical structures in place possibly allowing you to carry on the battle for a bit longer but not allowing them to take the planet for some time.

I could also see taking this ability into enemy territory with a small strike team. Go in bomb the planet, if they bring in resources to take it back, scorch it.

TEC seem to have no moral issues with destroying their own stuff/people anyway. Take the Red Button for instance on starbases.

Reply #61 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Unknown924, reply 19
What about research that gives bonuses only in gravity wells you control(I know some mods do this by giving researchable passive abilities to planets)?  For example:
Hull and shield regeneration for everything in a gravity well you control:  The bonus would be halved if there are enemies in the gravity well and totally negated for everything that is under attack.
Strikecraft build speed increase and anti-matter cost reduction:  Would only work when there are no enemies in the gravity well, but would provide a large bonus otherwise.  Say a 5% cost reduction and a 10% build speed bonus per level of research with techs for it every other lab.
Anti-matter cost reduction:  Cost of anti-matter for abilities of units/structures/starbases is reduced as long as there are no enemy units in the gravity well.
Both of those could be explained as local forces prviding emergency supplies to military forces. 

Range boost:  Provides a range boost to all units/defense structures/starbases in your gravity wells.
Speed boost:  Provides a speed boost to all units in your gravity wells.
Both explained a using existing civilian sensor/communication networks to help coordinate military forces.

Capital Experience:  All your capital ships gain increased experience when fighting in a gravity well you control.


If Ironclad's plan to let players give pirates missions stays, then there could be several technologies that modify it.  Such as:
Pirate relations: The amount of forces pirates send on missions you give them increases and they ammount of forces sent against you on missions for other players decreases.  The cost of giving missions to the pirates is also decreased.
There could also be research to let the player give pirates a defense mission.  There would be a certain amount of pirate ships defending a gravity well the player controls with more comming to replace those destroyed.  However, the resource income of the gravity well defended would be reduced by a percentage.  The amount of pirates defending and the percentage cost could be modified by the pirate relations idea above.

Another idea is having research that decreases the cost of capital ships and starbases.  This would reduce the cost to build capital ships and the cost to use the starbase construction ability in gravity wells the player controls.  It could be explained as hiring civilian experts that have knowledge of constructing very large scale projects.

 

I agree that artifacts should get a boost.  Maybe a technology that lets you share benefits with your allies.  It could also require both players to research it to get the full benefits.  Such as if only one player researches it, they get 50% of the bonuses of every artifact their allies control and their allies get 50% of the artifact bonuses that the player has.  However, if one of the allies also researches the technology, both would share 100% of the bonuses provided by artifacts they control.
The artifact tree could also get an overhall by giving artifacts levels that must be researched.  Artifacts could start out at half their current power, but be improved so they are 2 or even 3 times their original power.  Artifact upgrades could be at 2/4/6/8 civic labs.

These are some really good idea's and would give something for the people that only play 1v1. I prefer to play in larger groups of about 4 or 6 so i'm really looking forward to diplomacy. What i would like to see from diplomacy (apart from that changes I have seen so far which look great) is more development on culture. Whilst it is useful it is not fast enough or powerful enough to play a major role in the outcome of a game, particularly for the TEC and Vasari.

Reply #62 from Sins Forums Top

i would like to see spy ships, in its most basic form scouts with cloaking devices, or trade ships that report back to you when they are in enemy or neutral territory (from trade alliances)