Tactical Battles -- How to make them the bestest!

Most people on this forum have probably played quite a number of card, video and board games. There are a number of valuable mechanisms we've all seen in these game types that could be used to build a durable and entertaining tactical battle system -- in other words, totally unlike the snorefest of the HoMM games.

I'd like to say at the start that several of the games I use as negative examples are very good games, and several of the games I use as positive examples are very bad games. I'm not considering the games as a whole, just the specific feature I want to discuss -- and in my opinion, those games do the opposite to their detriment or benefit, without that changing the overall excellence or poor quality of the remainder of the game. Well, except for HoMM -- that whole series sucked.

Broad Decisions

The best board and card games have a limited number of extremely important decisions. A poker player can call, raise, or see on his turn. A chess player has six different pieces. The lack of microdecisions keeps players thinking about the interesting "big picture" issues rather than the limited and uninteresting stuff. 

Negative examples:

Huge numbers of poorly differentiated units and spells (HoMM and MtG) slow down battles/turns without providing additional "cool"

Positive examples:

Guild Wars -- hard limit of eight skills on a player's bar, selected from a large pool of skills, keeps things interesting.

Armageddon Empires -- units have one or two abilities, battles are tight and tactically interesting http://www.crypticcomet.com/

Implementation: Limit the number of units per army, and keep their abilities to between one and three. No unit should require multiple pages to list their powers. 

 

Automation is Essential

This is 2009, we've all got limited scripting experience (or the ability to google). Give us the ability to create macros for battles. Players who want to use chains of spells -- for instance, a weakening spell, a rooting spell, and a damage spell, all using different units -- should be able to predesign that chain and then push one button to cast it on the target. Players should be able to create and save starting battle positions for their armies to keep pre-battle fiddling to a minimum. In a word, allow players to automate the menial tasks while keeping control of the more interesting decision of when to use those abilities.

Negative Example: Starcraft -- zero automation, requiring players to devote a serious amount of time to simply managing these abilities

Positive Example: World of Warcraft -- skill chains are macroable, but still require player interaction to select the appropriate time and activate the skill.

Too Much Automation is Bad

Generally this is manifested in autocasting features, which act as a crutch for players overwhelmed by the necessity of managing tens or hundreds of units and their various, mostly minor, abilities. Abdicating control in this fashion to the machine loses out on a significant element of the game, and results in the player doing little more than attack moving and watching the game play itself.  Avoid the sort of minor abilities that make this feature necessary!

Negative Example: Sins of a Solar Empire -- every ability is either machine usable or passive, with the vast majority of abilities (like the Advent frigates with antimatter thieving abilities) too spammy and fiddly for the player to manage

Positive Example: Empire Earth -- only a small number of units had abilities, and all of them were sufficiently potent that player management was not a chore.

 

Secondary Objectives are Essential

Most games have only a single objective in their tactical battles -- slay. This is in contrast to the huge variety of game types seen in multiplayer, where everything from resource acquisition (as a method of scoring) to capturing a flag (or princess) to holding a spot on the map for a period of time are included. Mixing things up in this fashion improves replayability and gives smaller armies a chance to turn the tables on larger foes.

Negative Examples:

World of Warcraft and Warhammer Online -- Both games have secondary objectives in their combat maps that are irrelevant to players as the benefit of going after the secondary objectives is outweighed significantly by the decrease in focus on the primary objective.

Positive Example:

Rise of Nations: In the world campaign modes, many maps had secondary objectives, alternate objectives and all sorts of other activities. The sheer variety of these maps, and the substantive nature of the rewards obtained for pursuing those objectives, encouraged players to pursue them.

 

Limited Numbers

This is tied into the concept of broad decisions. Players should never ever ever ever ever be able to fit everything they need into a single army. Forcing players to specialize encourages supporting forces, and allows for players and the ai to deploy forces designed specifically to counter their army types. 

Negative Example: HoMM (all of them) -- Everything you need can easily fit into a single force, and individual units can be expanded ad nauseum to essentially expand without limit the health and damage of units. Players are easily able to create functionally invincible armies after their forces reach a sufficient size.

Positive Example: Total War (all of them) -- armies are capped at a limited number of units, and the player cannot easily expand them into monstrous abominations. Even more important, the player can never create a truly unbeatable force, as sufficient numbers from supporting forces can be used to overwhelm their armies. 

 

I've got a few more ideas, but I've spent a lot of time writing and, hey, it's not like someone is paying for all this crap!

 

34,310 views 27 replies
Reply #1 Top

I think that's a very interesting look at things. I have to say I did enjoy Homm and sins of a solar empire, but fighting stacks of 1000 dragons is insane and the ability micromanagement in sins seems to be turning on and off autocast, which is almost but not quite like setting the behaviour or gambits. (micro option for automation, to set gambits for ability use or actions... in sins it'd be for retreat at low health for delicate ships, to adjust highest threat targets...something to make it feel like you're at least giving orders)

I would like to see secondary objectives and secondary effects of battle - eg

using fire spells repeatedly in battle near or on a fertile land tile could disable it for a few turns (burnt fields),
army's could generate slow moving 'supply train' units in battle, which they would then have to defend or suffer a movement penalty,
cities could generate a 'farmer/militia' unit which they would have to defend or try to use for defence (with appropriate population penalties upon loss).
With necromancy you may need very fresh or special corpses for certain summons, perhaps bringing trained necromancers into battle and having them close to an enemy as it dies (or something equally risky)

One option for the choices could be selecting what the units are able to do at the start of the battle, necromancers could be either raising dead (defenceless) or casting spells, but not both... forcing you to farm from the weak battles and lose troops against the strong (rather than gaining masses of troops from larger hard battles in an exponential growth situation) It would only be important in the difficult choices, do I bring a weak defenceless mage into battle but gain skeletons or make him poison and cripple the enemy but gain nothing from it... risks vs benefits

Reply #2 Top


Limited Numbers

This is tied into the concept of broad decisions. Players should never ever ever ever ever be able to fit everything they need into a single army. Forcing players to specialize encourages supporting forces, and allows for players and the ai to deploy forces designed specifically to counter their army types. 

Negative Example: HoMM (all of them) -- Everything you need can easily fit into a single force, and individual units can be expanded ad nauseum to essentially expand without limit the health and damage of units. Players are easily able to create functionally invincible armies after their forces reach a sufficient size.

Positive Example: Total War (all of them) -- armies are capped at a limited number of units, and the player cannot easily expand them into monstrous abominations. Even more important, the player can never create a truly unbeatable force, as sufficient numbers from supporting forces can be used to overwhelm their armies. 

This is the only part I disagree with.  I don't think there should be abitrarily enforced limits on army size.  If there are it will simply encourage uber-units and heroes.  I want more variety in the types of armies that are viable.  However, I do believe there should be difficulties involved in commanding and supporting a large army.  I'm certainly fine with it being a trade off.  Perhaps some research will allow you to command bigger armies, other research will make stronger armies.  If you forgo lots of Civ, Adventure and Magic research you could have both but say goodbye to your army when your "defenseless" opponent raises a volcano underneath you and your army comes back as undead under your opponents control.

Reply #3 Top

Think of a deck of Magic cards. There is a limit of between forty and sixty cards, with a hand size of seven. Meanwhile, there are a functionally infinite number of magic cards. The limitations force good decks to specialize, and require the player to constantly make decisions about how to manage their hand. 

Rather than restricting the player, the limitations act as a spur to build diversity and general creativity.

Consider slot limitations in armies as being similar to skill points for a character in an RPG. By limiting the total number of skill points, and thus preventing the character from acquiring every possible skill, you create the possibility for builds other than "take everything including the kitchen sink." 

Or, in fewer words, specialization is the spice of life. 

 

And in regards to HOMM specifically, the ability to constantly increase the number of units of the same type in an army is, in my opinion, a horrible balance decision. Since adding units effectively adds to the hitpoints and damage of the creature, it allows large armies to oneshot smaller groups without the possibility of retaliation -- especially if they have an initiative advantage. Furthermore, it cheapens the importance of individual units -- who cares if you lose a few thousand soldiers when you have tens of thousands more remaining. 

All in all, I find that specific feature of HOMM utterly unappealing and hope it finds no place in Elemental.

 

Reply #4 Top

Better a limit in POWER than a limit to raw numbers.

examples of this are seen in Table-top games, where a player buys their units. Each unit is worth a certain amount of points. In elemental, for instance, perhaps an army cannot become larger than a million points, if points are distributed generously, or ... if a basic unit is only 1 point, then perhaps no larger than 20,000 points.

The point is that you can either use a few elite units, a hoard of fodder units, or some-sort of hybrid.

Any limit that has only to do with Raw numbers limits itself to expensive and elite units.

Reply #5 Top

Goodmorning all,

Hardlimiiting the number of units, or even the power of an army or stack seams to be a overly blunt way to achive the goal, to me.

The goal is to make it so that smaller devers armies retain function, and that super huge stacks-o-death don't (or at least have limited funcitonality.) 

I think the gameplay mechanics should be such that the overhead of building those Stack-o-death's should make them undersirable, but not imporssible.

When discusing stack sizees i mentioned that  a stack of 10,000 can not meaningfully engadge a stack of 10. even 20 people can not meaningfully attack 10.  most of them just stand around waiting thier turn to get thier kicks in (or get kicked).   So some mechanic that limited the number of units that can functionally attack as one, might be nicer.


Somewhere, but i lost it, i gave a very long post about how to move from armies of 10 people to armies of 10,000, which helped elliminate these problems.

take care. Robbie

Reply #6 Top

I agree with Valiant.  If you limit army sizes, you've basically destroyed any meaningful strategy for low level soldiers.  If you want to destroy a stack of strong soldiers with weak soldiers, you basically have to throw piles of weaker stacks at the stronger stack, consequently innitiating a chain of battles you know you won't win until you've thrown away 4-5 stacks--- and that's just silly and tedious.  Not to mention you end up with billions of small stacks late game and each battle ends up little, petty, and insignificant.  Nothing was more dull than Total War mid and late games: 13 succesive battles in the same turn, around the same city.  In this case, one Epic battle would have been much, much more meaningful.

I think a more elequant way to deal with stack-o-deaths dominating the scene would be to simply make larger stacks move slower than smaller stacks.  That way, you don't have massive stacks chasing and shaking down smaller stacks.  If smaller stacks are separated, they lose most of their actions.  Also, separating an army into smaller stacks would require their moves for the turn as well (this is to prevent the exploit of moving the army in separate smaller stacks for speed and then just combining them right before a fight.)

Reply #7 Top

I disagree entirely, and I offer up as examples the Total War series, Armageddon Empires and Magic the Gathering. 

Strict numbers limits, aided by harsh upkeep costs, represented respectively by money, resources and time to pull a card, do a far superior job of dealing with the problem of size disparity. They also minimize the necessary micromanagement otherwise resulting from large numbers -- both AE and the TW series allow units to be grouped in armies. 

Nothing was more dull than Total War mid and late games: 13 succesive battles in the same turn, around the same city.

Addressing this specifically, more modern editions of the series allow offmap reinforcement from supporting armies rather than, as in the earlier games, requiring each stack to attack individually. 

The other mechanisms suggested by Demiansky have all been tested and found wanting in various Civ4 mods. People still use stacks of doom, they just wait to assemble them until they reach the target -- or if attack/defense penalties are key, the stacks at n-1 penalty size surround their target  rather than waiting on the same square. 

I posit that rather than penalizing the player, rewards should instead be employed. Units should be deployable outside of the army module, but inside it they receive bonuses from whatever general they have leading them. 

 

Some individuals have suggested that the obvious result would be "elite" units dominating the field against low quality large number groups. I believe that this would be the case in a tactical battle however you manage things. There is, after all, an effective technological limit to the number of units on screen at the same time. And in the hands of a player, elite units will easily rout and annihilate any enemy force. 

Reply #8 Top

What exactly would macros be used for in a strategy game? (That hotkeys wouldn't already be used for?) I can't think that I've ever found myself needing this in a strategy game, especially one as slow paced as Elemental's tactical game will be.

And in regards to HOMM specifically, the ability to constantly increase the number of units of the same type in an army is, in my opinion, a horrible balance decision. Since adding units effectively adds to the hitpoints and damage of the creature, it allows large armies to oneshot smaller groups without the possibility of retaliation -- especially if they have an initiative advantage. Furthermore, it cheapens the importance of individual units -- who cares if you lose a few thousand soldiers when you have tens of thousands more remaining.

Even if this were a problem in HoMM , I don't think that it would be applicable to Elemental, given that elemental's tactical game eliminates the first-turn advantage. Beyond that, HoMM is designed to be a war of attrition because of its strategic model (capped unit growth, 'bigger is better' tech tree, etc.). Elemental is much more freeform.

Reply #9 Top

Gentlemen I've found the answer. The greatest and most complex grand strategy game ever created I hereby present you Hearts of Iron 3. http://www.heartsofirongame.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=section&layout=blog&id=44&Itemid=92

 

I played it and it suffers from some problems but this is not one of them. This pretty complex mechanic works absolutely fantastic and even a dumbed down version would make elemental 10 times cooler.

Reply #10 Top

Quoting lifekatana, reply 9
Gentlemen I've found the answer. The greatest and most complex grand strategy game ever created I hereby present you Hearts of Iron 3. http://www.heartsofirongame.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=section&layout=blog&id=44&Itemid=92

 

I played it and it suffers from some problems but this is not one of them. This pretty complex mechanic works absolutely fantastic and even a dumbed down version would make elemental 10 times cooler.

I played HOI3 demo and won't touch that boondoggle ever again. THAT, we can call complex and complicated at the same time.

As for supply not being an issue, I guess you don't read Paradox forums:

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=449993

or

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=449642

just to give recent exemples.

Reply #11 Top

Screw Hearts of Iron 3, Its Hearts of iron 2 thats awesome!

 

But as for elemental I think the est soltion would be a point based limit, the point limit being based on the leader skills.

Why?

 

Because as Tasunke says otherwise you tip the balance infavour of stacks of elite units which makes the whole point of elementals army design system obselete. As no matter how you balance it with maintanace 100 armoured warrior will always beat 100 armed peasents no matter the ecconomic differenes. Yet if you had 10000 armed plebes vs 100 knights the results would be very much different.

And lets face it's a common theme in Fanatasy to have the barbarian overrun civlized horde armies. No?

Edit: I'm slightly tipsey so please disregard my post

 

Reply #12 Top

I found a great example of Strategic gameplay, was the Age of Wonders (AoW) tactical battle option in both AoW 1,2 and Shadow Magic.  You were limited to 8 units per battle (of differring strengths and tiers) but tactics could very quickly decide of those choices were smart or not.  Also relative placement on the map and reinforcements played a decent role in attacks and defenses.

Terrain played a factor, as did city built defences during seiges.

Another great example of Strategic battle excellence is MOO 2.  Great system, even if unrelated.  I was going to mention MOO 1 but remembered it ran on the stack system, which is (in my opinion) a silly system that doesn't do a good job of representing fun strategic gameplay.

In terms of Strategy for table top games, either Warhammer Fantasy and Warhammer 40k have alot to offer in terms of a model for mechanics.  40k Specifically, which runs on a points system (Almost identical to Total War), does a decent job of presenting small squades of units, that have been (mostly) balanced for game play.  Depending on faction you can have large or small/elite armies that play very differntly and enjoyably lead to all kinds of tactical shinnaigans.

The new 40k ruleset does alot to try to bring the game closer to its electronic incarnation Dawn of War, in putting emphasis on objectives (sometimes) while also having a decent amount of fighting and Magic/Psychic/Army Special Rules trickery.  And again terrain plays a huge factor in this game, and dectates defensive bonuses and movement penalties etc. .

A game that played like a round of Warhammer 40k/Fantasy only faster and without having to flip through the rules a dozen times a game would be ideal.  Also, a revitalized style of AoW tactical combat would litterally be a dream come true as I've been waiting for that for a long time, and many of the screen shots for combat for this game suggested a similar style.

Limiting combat in scope is a good idea, as even in AoW with stacks of 8 units, a strategic combat could still last some time, and in a multiplayer game this could be problematic.  Also the old AoW programs failed/bugged out often during Strategic combat in a multiplayer game which could be infuriating, and made Strategic combat in multiplay frowned upon and very difficult.

I am very excited about whatever results in Elemental, as the developement team has done nothing but quote games I have loved my entire life as examples or desired models.

Reply #13 Top

Quoting leVenatio, reply 12
Another great example of Strategic battle excellence is MOO 2.  Great system, even if unrelated.  I was going to mention MOO 1 but remembered it ran on the stack system, which is (in my opinion) a silly system that doesn't do a good job of representing fun strategic gameplay.

 

Perhaps you didn't quite appreciate fully what MOO1 offered. Part of the greatness of MOO1 was the viability of tiny/small hull ships to overwhelm large/huge ships. It was a pure cost/performance ratio landslide in favor of the smaller ships and their quick production times. Their fast movement speed, low cost and quick production speed were the bane of slowly produced huge and large hull designs. With the proper sensors you could detect a dangerous fleet and respond with a fast track tiny hull design to counter a stack of large or huge hull ships heading your way. Of course the tiny hulls had their disadvantages as well but strictly speaking, without stacks of units this aspect of cheap overwhelming numbers vs expensive powerful units is hard to represent.

 

Reply #14 Top

Caping the amount of units (hard-coded value) is not a good idea. The hard cap defines the strategy to "build only the strongest units". However, there is a limit the hardware can handle (and let us not forget the player, he can handle even less than the hardware).

In GC2 there was no cap on planet population, but the planets with huge population were problematic. It worked just fine. I think it shall be the similar in the Elemental logistics: do you have too many units on the single tile? The upkeep shall be really big (quadratic, cubic or even exponential).  The good leader may decrease the costs and probably some technology may do that too. If you split the army, the upkeep of two armies shall be smaller than the upkeep of one single army with the same amount of units.

However, if you want to attack a heavily defended structure/foe, you should be able to gather your armies and attack at once. If you for just one round gather your units on a single tile and than attack, you pay pretty that round, but it may be a key to your victory.

Reply #15 Top

gah ... crowding factors are one thing, but increased maintanence is another. It only encourages micro.

I think having either no caps or invisible ceiling-eque soft-caps. Let the elements of the game take care of the rest. I don't think we need to have the code tell us we can't have all our units in one army if we want to. Although there could be a logistical or rather TACTICAL limiting reagent on army size. aka your flank can only be so wide, and if you cover the entire map, on the largest map ... you don't get much benefit from more troops.

However ... the numbers in the armies which have been stated .... I think the only limiting factor needs to be production capacity and global upkeep.

Reply #16 Top

Nice lifetime for a post that isn't really applicable to the genre...

 

I prefer having real logistical requirements to false limitations, and real world combat function over arbitrary unit caps to protect small armies.

 

Fifty thousand men can't attack five hundred, depending on the terrain, formation, and leadership, the number engaged are closer to equal than an extreme match similar to the deployment ratio.  If you can put that physical reality into a game, the problem is solved.  If you can raid supply lines and starve an army off, there wont be a fifty thousand man army trying to steamroll in the first place, it will be suicide.

Reply #17 Top

Im not sure which post u refer to being not applicable to the genre

Reply #18 Top

Quoting psychoak, reply 16
Fifty thousand men can't attack five hundred, depending on the terrain, formation, and leadership, the number engaged are closer to equal than an extreme match similar to the deployment ratio.  If you can put that physical reality into a game, the problem is solved.

And what about 300 then?

 

You're right! One solution would be not to make the tactical field a chessboard but a reflection of the strategic map. Thus, if your 300 500 men are between two mountain tiles, the tactical map would make them appear holding a mountain pass, and the 50'000 enemies should take turns to attack them, waiting till the first ranks have been killed before they can have their try. No flanking, no overwhelming!

It would be like storming a city/castle in AoW or Dominions. A few good defenders on the chokepoint (the gate), supported by archers/mages/siege engines making death rain from the sky, can defeat a far greater number of attackers than  face to face on a plain. I had some epic battles like that (even in AoW with just a few tens of units). of course it would be even more interesting if morale is scripted.

Reply #19 Top

Quoting Mandelik, reply 18

You're right! One solution would be not to make the tactical field a chessboard but a reflection of the strategic map. Thus, if your 300 500 men are between two mountain tiles, the tactical map would make them appear holding a mountain pass, and the 50'000 enemies should take turns to attack them, waiting till the first ranks have been killed before they can have their try. No flanking, no overwhelming!


That's not counting units that fly, teleport or are incorporeal, or spells that do area damage, force a unit to abandon its position or modify terrain...

Reply #20 Top

I'm just hoping for interesting and varied terrain. A hut here, a copse of trees there, maybe a small little hill. I've been wondering how urban combat will work... hmm...

I've always found urban combat to be interesting and I hope they implement something interesting.

Reply #21 Top

Im not sure which post u refer to being not applicable to the genre

 

The actual thread posting.  Commentary along the lines of only having a few distinct units, in a 4X, that don't work.  You'd have nothing to research.

Reply #22 Top

Good ideas on broad decisions being the meat and potates of a strategy game, though micro-tactical details could be left to the ai as pre-chosen doctrine, much like is done in a tactical RPG (e.g. a script window as in NWN2).  The broad decision might be whether or not the spearmen march in front of the musketmen, and whether or not the army entrenches or marches.  The micro decisions (as micro abilities in an RTS) might be when the unit's sergeants call for the men to break out their kit's healing poitions, for the mage read a one-time scroll of flaming weapon on the spear tips.  E.g. in other words, the units might still have cute micro details that the player doesn't directly have to manage, but can pre-script, or leave up to the AI.  E.g. like RTS/MMORPG options of buffing, healing, pulling, special attack, finishing move, etc...

I love the OP idea of tactical battles having secondary goals.  That would be a good step-up from MoM type tactical battle.  Sort of like what a tabletop tactical miniatures game would be like, like Warhammer.  For instance, a secondary goal of grabbing a hill to give a significant bonus to the damage that your siege units do to the enemy.  Or grabbing the enemy's baggage carts/beer tents to reduce morale for the remainder of the battle.  Or busting down a wall section of a fortification to take away a defender's bonus during the battle. Or killing x # of officers, etc.. etc...

Another positive is that secondary goals could tie into the quest system where the quest goal is done during the tactical battle, e.g. a protect a character from assaination goal applying during a tactical battle as well as during strategic turns.

Mixed feelings on automation.  On one hand it can make battles appear to be animated, and in the case of GalCiv2, that brightened up the game.  But on the other hand it can be tedious to watch (e.g. the 1000th battle of your superstack in MoM). Total automation, as in, not witnessing the tactical battles might be considered, but then it creates a meta game onless the battle is totally simulated.  Automation could be avoided by making the battlespace of the tactical battles to be simpler.  I remember a 486-era game where the tactical battles were basically fought on a tic-tac-toe grid, and not MoM-sized grids.  But on other hand, hacking huge tactical battles would appeal to the tabletop gamer.

     Relatedly, perhaps a compromise of selectable battlespace per battle?  E.g. If the players want a 1000x1000 grid for the final battle, scale the units to that size.  If the player wants to game a battle quickly, how about the option to scale it to a tic-tac-toe grid?

If automated, how about automation that is nearly seemless as to appear real-time, in the way a tactical RPG is (e.g. NWN2) pause to give orders to units and let them rinse and repeat those orders? Good points about scripting combinations a la WoW. That would be a good alternative way have allowing units to have micromanagement abilities, but essentially eliminating the micromanagement by a tactical script.

 

Reply #23 Top

The actual thread posting.  Commentary along the lines of only having a few distinct units, in a 4X, that don't work.  You'd have nothing to research.

Perhaps we're having a communication disconnect. I posited initially that, due to technical limitations, there would not be an infinite number of units on screen. And due to the preference for more complex graphical displays in tactical battles, that number of units would inevitably be a subset of the number displayed on the strategic map. From that fact, I ended up with the further conclusion that tactical battles would only include a subset of units in a given stack. 

I also drew on the knowledge that in Elemental we would generally be researching incremental upgrades (in the form of equipment) separately from new unit types (in the form of casters and "sworderers"). There's still plenty of room for the sort of dull incremental upgrades that seem to inevitably find their way into TBS games, even if you enforce sharp diversity between types.

 

So if you assume, as I plausibly did above, that each stack is a deck and each tactical battle is a player selected hand from that deck, the best way to handle units is to give them a great deal of diversity while sharply limiting the number deployed in any given battle, thus creating a whole swath of interesting decisions before every battle.

In this way, we end up preventing the player from being able to respond to absolutely every threat in any given hand, while still allowing them to respond to most any threat with a given deck. It additionally allows scouting to play a crucial role in discovering the composition of the enemy stack while still retaining an element of the unknown with regard to the exact composition of any given enemy hand. Finally, it enables two stacks to meet and engage one another without the end result of that meeting necessarily being the absolute annihilation of one or the other.

I'm not so sure how readable this reply is, as I'm rather tired from it being both late and coming after the conclusion of a particularly strenuous stretch of holiday hootenanny-ing, but I'm going to just stop here and hope for the best.

 

Reply #24 Top

It's a 4x with a historical bent, magic, and customizable units.  Battles have been suggested to grow in scale from dozens of men to tens of thousands by the late game.  This doesn't describe a card deck style playing system, and it doesn't describe a limited unit types approach either.  The no scrolling abilities list bit will fit nicely, but armies can't turn into huge TW style armies if you only have two or three unit types that are specific in usage when you're building different quality units and such from different sources.

Reply #25 Top

The actual thread posting. Commentary along the lines of only having a few distinct units, in a 4X, that don't work. You'd have nothing to research.

I've been pining so long for an Integrated Metaphysics dev journal that I'm ready to think having almost no mundane research to bother with ought to be the goal. Nothing to research--phaugh. Where's the magic? Can we still hope that it will be interesting and fun enough to put the mundane trees properly in the background? Is the still-internal magic system already so outrageously swell that the devs are just laughing at this sort of worry whilst quietly deciding how they want to handle the rush of feedback after the first big magic rollout?