More Stable Alliances / Federations / Merging

Posted this in the wrong place, sorry. Here goes...

 

I noticed that in Sins, empires can decide to cut off their alliance with you when you and they are the only ones left. I kinda wish they wouldn't do that until a later time; when resources began to run low, economic competition was high, and a cold war was looming. Will Diplomacy act in this way?

Even better, imagine 3 empires all allied to each other in a Federation of sorts. Now that would be impressive.

Or perhaps even two empires that were allied for so long that they decide to merge into one (naturally, the player's).

Imagine one big empire attacks a system with 3 little ones, so they are forced to form a Federation/Confederation, which eventually defeats the big empire. Now, instead of immediately falling apart and killing each other (which is what usually happens with the AI), they stay together, but now compete "peacefully" over resources and planets until everything is sucked up and a cold war looms. Eventually some factions may kill off others by collapsing their economy, or total war may break out. Or maybe they will handle things more peacefully, and merge into one faction.

What do you think? Will Diplomacy do anything of this sort? I'd love to hear from the devs on this one!

7,490 views 14 replies
Reply #1 Top

I really don't understand why it has to be so Highlander.

Reply #2 Top

What do you mean by "so Highlander"?

Reply #4 Top

Right. -_-

Reply #5 Top

Diplomacy won't allow you to create federations or merge empires, but if you devote yourself to allying with one other player, you will have quite a bit of combined power.

Reply #6 Top

They should give a count down of 10min or something until the alliance is totally cut off

Reply #7 Top

Quoting Yarlen, reply 5
Diplomacy won't allow you to create federations or merge empires, but if you devote yourself to allying with one other player, you will have quite a bit of combined power.

Good to know!

Reply #8 Top

You can still win when at peace (i.e. not just a cease-fire), I've only ever rarely defeated my final hostile enemy and had my ally turn on me.
That's not to say that perhaps it shouldn't be possible to win with two or more AIs you've forged an alliance with, either as an 'arbiter' between the two or somehow brokering a lasting peace between them. Maybe that would constitute a 'Diplomatic Victory?'

Reply #9 Top

Are there no plans for an 'alliance victory'?

You can get an allied victory with locked teams, why not with them unlocked?

Reply #10 Top

Quoting Shunmaha, reply 6
They should give a count down of 10min or something until the alliance is totally cut off

You just gave me an idea!  What if the strength of the alliance you break affects the allegiance of your own planets?  For example let's say you ally early in the game and eventually have an alliance strength of +90%.  Maybe by instantly breaking the alliance and declaring war your planets have a chance to defect.  This chance could be affected by the difference in culture, proximity of the capitals, etc.  This could lead to all sorts of situations where because of a strong alliance you are literally forced into certain actions like war etc. 

With this change culture would become a much more viable option.  Think of it as the more you win another player's people, the less options that player has of dealing with your civilization directly.  This could lead to situations where a  militaristic empire might not be able to declare war on a culturally developed nation for the fear that its own citizens would side with the other nation.  In this situation the only way to act against the other nation might be through giving missions to other nations.

My 2 cents,

FreePointz

Reply #11 Top

Are there no plans for an 'alliance victory'?

You can get an allied victory with locked teams, why not with them unlocked?

On unlocked teams, you CAN get an allied victory with at least two players.  IIRC, the biggest issue is that ALL players have to be allied with ALL other players in an alliance for it to count (and possibly with no other players).  It's a difficult thing to arrange.

At minimum, two people can get an allied victory.  I've done it plenty of times.

Reply #12 Top

Quoting JSW_Ballz, reply 11

Are there no plans for an 'alliance victory'?

You can get an allied victory with locked teams, why not with them unlocked?
On unlocked teams, you CAN get an allied victory with at least two players.  IIRC, the biggest issue is that ALL players have to be allied with ALL other players in an alliance for it to count (and possibly with no other players).  It's a difficult thing to arrange.

At minimum, two people can get an allied victory.  I've done it plenty of times.

 

Oh can you? Fair enough, I havn't been able to yet, but I havn't played many unlocked team games tbh.

Reply #13 Top

I think pacts themselves should increase the relationship level over time. They should have lower requirements, otherwise a 'research pact' (for example) would do little to help. And both empires should gradually rely on the pact existence, thus it should weigh positively on the relationship over time.

Breaking pacts or alliances should not only cancel any bonus which is accumulated over time, but also give a penalty as it is a sign of distrust. 

I also think that it should be possible for relationship levels  go negative and beyon 200%. I'd suggest the level to be between -500% and 500%, so that it gets very hard to break millenia-long alliances, and similarly hard to end the bitter hate between mortal enemies. 

 

Reply #14 Top

Missions 

I think the player or the AI should be able to 'commit' to a mission. Commiting is the complement of rejecting. When a cation commits to a mission, it means it will wholeheartedly embrace it and try to accomplish it with the best of its abilities. Fulfilling a mission without commiting to it should have a smaller relationship benefit.

It should also be possible to be able to, as a mission, ask a faction to 'defend gravwel X for X minutes'. 

Additionally, I think there could be a 'goodwill' balance between each faction. Goodwill can be 0 for both, or lean toward a single side of the relation. By performing a 'goodwill' commitment, Faction Awill do a mission for Faction B no financial reward. The catch is that the faction A still gets the relationship bonus, and goodwill points instead of the financial reward. For each goodwill point From Faction A towards faction B, the next time Faction A puts a mission to faction B, B will feel more obliged to commit to A's mission. If faction B performs a goodwill mission however, it will reduce the goodwill balance of Faction A toward it. If it is already 0, the balance will turn, and faction A will get a positive balance over faction B.

This adds a strategic element to missions, where you will attempt to get a positive balance to convince a faction to do missions of strategic importance.

The AI should also be smart about putting missions for faction-vs-faction actions. If C is a neighbor of D and B, and knows that A is allied with B but not D, and wants to boost its relationship with A, it should be smart about putting missions against D, which A is more likely to want to accomplish.

Where is the bargain?

Actually, I think missions should be explictly accepted, or 'commited to', before any faction receives any reward besides the indirect 'positive bonus for military actions against a common enemy'. Once a mission is offered, there should be a possibility of bargaining. The other side should analyze it, and either reject the mission outright or do a counter-offer: 'If you pay me X more credits/metal/crystal I will do it. what do you say?'. Relationship would pay a part on how much reward factions demand to accept a mission.

Likewise, I would like to be able to bargain a ceasefire with one faction. I could offer a ceasefire and say 'make your price', the AI could ask me to break an alliance and attack the faction. If it makes sense strategically, I might do it. 

Bargaining could be a way to get to pacts earlier too. 

Impossible to win is OK

I personally think that it's OK to have an AI which is 'invincible' given a hard enough game. one player versus 8 unfair AIs with locked teams, for example, should be an endless barrage of enemies which would make it impossible to win.

The AI should not only be a reasonable challenge, it should actively try to win. Of course, it does not need to be 'perfect', or it would be impossible to win. 

AI should have its own agenda, regardless of alliances.

The AI should also be aware of the strongest empire and winning conditions, and act accordingly. The AI should be aware - or at least be able to estimate - the empire power based on how many gravwells (it thinks) each faction has, size of fleets last seen etc. to be able to estimate the strongest faction.

Modifiers which would be positive if it were an empire at the middle of the pack should become NEGATIVE if it is the leader; or at least if it is the leader by some margin. In other words, the more the leader faction is ahead of another faction, the military strength bonus would diminish to the point that is reversed to a penalty. 

Let me try to flesh out some mechanics for that...

From now on, when I say 'player' it's human. When I say AI, I mean computer-controlled (duh). When I say 'faction' or 'empire', it doesn't matter, it should act the same with either (except on very hard difficulties, where other AIs could have a better chance of getting friendly to each other). 

The AI should have its own agenda, and be aiming for the golden prize. Even though it might have a very high relationship with an empire, if that empire becomes more powerful that the AI itself, it should look for opportunities to turn the table arond - and become the strongest. 

First of all, being allied does not mean always acting in favor of the allied empire. If the AI's team - I mean allies and cease-fire empires - is the strongest team, it will actively pursue the leadership though.

If the AI's team is not the strongest, the AI's actions would be to indirectly hold back the growth of their allies, while helping it to grow as fast as possible. for example, it should be able to send missions to 'defend planet X for Y minutes', so that it can have one (or more) allies defending its empire while it punches a strong offensive. 

If an AI is too much behind the power ladder, though, it will be more inclined to do more direct actions though, such as e.g. give some bounty to the pirates for them to attack the strongest player, even if it is an ally. Or putting up missions with generous bounties to reduce the animosity with currently in-war factions, trying to convince them to attack the strongest faction.

If the AI team is the strongest, and has the strongest faction, the other factions in the same team should be even less scrupulous about underhanded proxy attacks.

Backstabbing anyone?