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Global warming hoax!?! - UPDATED -

Global warming hoax!?! - UPDATED -

Scientists no longer in it for the science...

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/21/science/earth/21climate.html

So, the truth has finially come out...

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/21/science/earth/21climate.html

 

Man created global warming has been politicized to the point that scientists have been rigging the results of tests to get the desired result.  This is not science, and all those "scientists" should lose their grants, teaching licenses, and be barred from ever touching a beaker ;)

 

Seriously, has science died?  What has the world come to that the nations of the world were getting close to passing greatly limiting, taxing and controling treaties all based on false information?  What should be done with the whole "green" agenda that has now been proven to be based on lies?

 

Thoughts?

--- Over 1000 replies makes this a very hot topic ---

 

Therefore I will continue to update with the unraveling of the IPCC and politicized science. (new articles will be placed first)

Please keep the topics a little more on point from here on out, thanks.

 - Glacer calculation show to be false, and scientist refuses to apologize...

 - More errors in report?

 - Opinion paper - Rigging climate 'consensus'

 

3,771,695 views 1,250 replies
Reply #201 Top

Mumbles, I'm getting tired of repeating myself.  I am not claiming the lower troposphere has been cooling.  Stop trying to debunk it already.  For the last bleeding time, the lower troposphere should be warming faster than the surface if the greenhouse theory is to account for the rise in temperature.  It's warming at less than half the rate of the surface.  Not cooling, warming slower.

 

In another thread someone made the argument that volcanoes put so much more CO2 into the atmosphere than human activity does that "the Earth doesn't even know we're here." Well I don't know where he got his facts but with a little searching I found that it's totally the other way around. Human activity actually generates about *150* times the amount of CO2 than that released by volcanic eruptions.

 

You mean this CO2?  Stop reminding me of things I've forgotten, it's dangerous.

Reply #202 Top

Mumbles, I'm getting tired of repeating myself. I am not claiming the lower troposphere has been cooling. Stop trying to debunk it already. For the last bleeding time, the lower troposphere should be warming faster than the surface if the greenhouse theory is to account for the rise in temperature. It's warming at less than half the rate of the surface. Not cooling, warming slower.
Yeah, I got that three replies ago. Read the fucking articles.

Stratosphere is cooling as predicted.

Mid to high troposphere is warming as predicted.

Lower troposphere other than the tropics is warming as predicted.

Only lower troposphere in the tropics is not warming as much as predicted. This hardly denies global warming. I agree it *is* a discrepancy but it is a *minor* discrepancy the cause of which is currently under study.

And cut the crap with the water vapor, you know better than that. You're just spouting arguments that even you know to be flawed. You obviously didn't watch any of the videos that I referenced earlier in the thread. For one the infrared absorbtion band of water vapor is much less than CO2 (which itself is less than methane). But the primary issue is that the water vapor content of the atmosphere is not dramatically increasing and is basically stable, and any increases (or decreases for that matter) that do occur are short lived, whereas we're increasing the CO2 content daily, and that CO2 increase is long lived. So whatever effect water vapor has on the system is already built in to the current average temperatures which leaves CO2 to be the primary source of temperature *increases*. Water vapor is a feedback response to increasing temperature *not* a forcing cause of temperature increases.

But like I said I have difficulty believing you didn't already know this so that implies that you're willing to lie to yourself in the hope that your opponent is ignorant of these facts. Sad really.

Also see http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2005/04/water-vapour-feedback-or-forcing/.

Reply #203 Top

Take your own advice, tard.  If you'd bother to actually read articles instead of stopping at the title, or where ever it is you've gotten to, that breaks down the contributions.

 

Try reading the part where it points out that human activity accounts for one sixth of the increase in CO2 levels.  While you're assuming that I'm blaming water vapor for rising temperatures, do some more self educating and look into that a bit deeper.  Eventually you'll come to that point where you learn that an increase in the temperature would be a good thing, the part about increased desertification being backwards for instance.  Not that learning it will help you grow a brain so you can apply the knowledge to your grasp of reality.

 

Lets try one last time to hammer this into the space between your ears.  A green house effect would have a comparable cooling effect on the surface temperature in comparison to the lower troposphere.  Take two earth tone plastic tubs, same color and composition, fill one with water and leave them both out in the sun for a day.  Which tub is hotter?  The atmosphere works in exactly the same way, hence the surface of the moon being 123 degrees C at the high point.  It warms, but it also mutes the effect of the direct sunlight on the surface by blocking all that radiation it's absorbing.

 

The temperature comparisons, taken during the heat of the day, show higher increases at the surface than in the lower troposphere.  As in the tub with the water in it should be warmer than the tub without water...

Reply #204 Top

Quoting inerz, reply 195
>>Define "SOMETHING" please<<

I'm sorry did you miss out on the last 12 years since the Kyoto Protocol was ratified? 

im just gonna copypaste some tidbits from wikipedia to you here:

The objective of the protocol is the "stabilization and reconstruction of greenhouse gas concentrations in the atmosphere at a level that would prevent dangerous anthropogenic interference with the climate system."

I bolded 'greenhouse gas' since it didnt say only co2 but greenhouse gases which includes methane and other more potent gases.

In a nutshell SOMETHING is a unilateral move towards cleaner energy production and cleaner industry. This will require huge investments and govermental policies/subsidies. These policies/subsidies will only be put into effect once the majority of the population supports/demands this. Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW) sceptics on the other hand are actively trying to prevent this on the basis of fearing their SUV/airconditioned villa lifestyle being taxed to bits or some vague paranoia about govermental control of their life which i havent quite grasped.

 

 

 

I am the AGW scepticist and i do not own SUV nor airconditioned villa. Your problem is the simplistic view if the world you demnstrated in your previous post. You say  " By choosing YES column, at worst we choose the option where we will spend a lot of money on going greener and cleaner but it wasnt that necessary to begin with. Now i would rather be safe than sorry and like i mentioned before in this wall of text, i think it might have a positive effect for the economy and the planet in the longrun to invest in clean tech", but i can just laugh at it... IT DOES NOT WORK THIS WAY. You just can´t say "lets cut the CO2 exhaust because MAYBE it is the reason for of the ongoing climate change". You know, THERE ARE MONEY INVOLVED. It is stupid to invest billions into something, what is redundant and NOT PROVEN TO BE effective, when you can spend those money elsewhere. The whole Kyoto Protocol is bullshit. There are many much more cost effective ways to soften the negative effects of the global warming instead of "fighting" it directly via the CO2 emmisions. 

Anyway someone pointed out that the cooler period during 20th century was never marked by the scientists as the coming of the ice age, it was all media hysteria. I say, there is no DEFINITIVE scientific evidence. that climate change today is manmade as well. And no i do not believe the IPCC, which now after the Climategate lost last pieces of its credibility. I am not climatologist, but i have read the books of Bjorn Lomborg (who by the way does not deny AGW), so i believe i know a bit about this stuff to voice my opinion here. The fact is, right now there are still too many unanswered questions ( for example temperature rising BEFORE the CO2 levels rising, NOT other way around, the medieval warmth period, the solar activity influence on the climate change, etc....) to definitely state current CLIMATE CHANGE is not part of natural cycle and is down to human activity. I do not say i cant be wrong and maybe my info is not up to date, but until i am proven otherwise, i will remain sceptic.

Thats my 2 cents, thanks for reading.

Reply #206 Top

tard
Asshole

Reply #207 Top

Hacked Emails Don’t Change Facts on the Ground…or in the Air, or in the Ocean

Dan Lashof

After 20 years of working on global warming I’m still naïve. I thought there was a chance that the controversy stirred up by the emails hacked from the University of East Anglia Climate Research Unit might be a short blip that would die down after the scientists involved explained the context of the handful of emails that appear most troubling. After all these emails involved a small fraction of the climate science community and center on one of the least important (tree ring records) of the multiple independent data sets that unequivocally show that the earth is heating up due to carbon pollution.

Silly me. Fueled by the likes of Jim Inhofe, Sean Hannity, and Rush Limbaugh, who long ago dismissed global warming as a hoax on ideological grounds regardless of the facts, it’s clear that this story is not going away anytime soon. I should have known better.

Some of the scientists involved have addressed specific issues raised by the emails. The president’s Science Advisor, Dr. John Holdren, pointed out at a hearing yesterday that the data and analysis related to the so-called hockey stick graph had previously been examined in detail by a National Academy of Sciences panel. Others have pointed to the fact that none of this email chatter changes the scientific consensus as embodied in the IPCC report and conclusions reached by multiple scientific bodies.

These are all useful points to make, but to me the most important point is that email chatter doesn’t change the facts. So let’s take this opportunity to review the fundamental facts about global warming.

  • Carbon dioxide concentrations in the atmosphere are at their highest levels in millions of years. The concentration of heat-trapping carbon dioxide in the atmosphere reached 385 parts per million (ppm) in 2008, an increase of 105 ppm above preindustrial levels. Concentrations have been increasing at an average rate of 1.9 ppm per year during this decade, significantly faster than the rate of increase during the 1990s.
  • The earth is warming. The 10 hottest years on record have all occurred since 1995 according to NOAA. Global surface temperatures are increasing at a rate of 0.19ºC per decade, in line with climate model predictions. Including the most recent data in the 25-year average increased this trend slightly from 0.18ºC per decade, which was the rate reported by the IPCC in 2007. (So what about claims that global warming has leveled off or even that the earth has started to cool? Nonsense according to independent statisticians commissioned to examine the data by the Associated Press. Such claims are based on giving inappropriate weight to 1998, which was an anomalously hot year compared to the long term trend.)
  • Arctic sea ice is melting. Sea ice declined to a record low in 2007 with a minimum ice extent almost 40% below the average for 1979-2000. Melting was not as extreme in 2008 and 2009, but the overall trend in September sea ice extent from 1979 through 2009 is a decline of 11% per decade.
  • The heat content of the ocean is increasing. Most of the extra heat that the earth retains due to the build of CO2 in the atmosphere goes into the oceans. The observed increases in the total heat content of the ocean (not just rising sea surface temperatures) demonstrates that earth is absorbing more energy from the sun than it is releasing. To me this is the smoking gun of global warming because there is simply no plausible explanation other than increases in heat-trapping pollution in the atmosphere.
  • Sea levels are rising at an accelerated rate. This is partly due to thermal expansion as the ocean column warms and partly due to melting of land-based ice from Greenland and Antarctica.
  • The oceans are becoming more acidic. Even if the CO2 buildup was somehow not causing global warming it would still be a huge problem because the oceans absorb a portion of the carbon dioxide released into the atmosphere, reducing ocean pH. As NOAA chief Dr. Jane Lubchenco demonstrated to a House Committee yesterday, this makes life more difficult for ocean creatures that build shells out of calcium carbonate. Unless CO2 concentrations are stabilized soon large parts of the ocean will become literally too corrosive for many of these organisms to survive.

Global warming deniers are the ones who selectively manipulate data in an effort to demonstrate a preconceived ideologically-driven view. Many of them are devoted to the belief that regulation is always bad. Their unstated syllogism is that if global warming is real then regulating carbon emissions is necessary and good. Regulation is bad. Therefore global warming can’t be real.

Scientists devoted to discovering the truth regardless of its implications have nothing to fear from full transparency of global warming data. Bring it on.

Reply #208 Top

Debunking Misinformation About Stolen Climate Emails

The manufactured controversy over emails stolen from the University of East Anglia's Climatic Research Unit has generated a lot more heat than light over the past two weeks. Experts at the Union of Concerned Scientists (UCS) have concluded that while the emails "do raise some valid concerns about scientific integrity, they do not indicate that climate data and research have been compromised."

UCS's analysis of the emails and the debate surrounding them aims to correct popular misconceptions about what the emails say, put them in scientific context and explain the importance of scientific integrity.

Media outlets are getting the story wrong. These emails don't demonstrate anything wrong with global warming data.

Scientists didn't "trick" anyone or "hide" anything.

Scientists are talking about understanding our climate, not hiding anything.

Some emails raise valid scientific concerns, but don't undermine the science.

Science must be viewed in context to be properly understood.

Groups misrepresenting these emails are overplaying their hand, demonstrating their desperation and tarnishing the name of scientists who are now receiving death threats.

The timing of releasing the stolen emails is suspicious.

Scientists are as human as anybody else.

Some news organizations have misreported critical aspects of the stolen email story. There is no evidence scientists did anything with temperature data they weren't already doing openly in peer-reviewed papers.

There is no evidence that scientists "fudged," "manipulated" or "manufactured" data. These unsupported claims, based on taking the emails out of context, are being promoted by long-time anti-science opponents of climate change legislation. The fact that the U.N. Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), the University of East Anglia and Penn State University are looking into the contents of the stolen emails is not evidence that the charges against the scientists involved are true.

While the emails do raise some valid concerns about scientific integrity, they do not indicate that climate data and research have been compromised. Media stories that report they do are inaccurate. And opponents of climate change action are either lying about the emails or are ignorant of the climate science involved.

University of East Anglia Climatic Research Unit Director Phil Jones wasn't "hiding" anything that wasn't already being openly discussed in scientific papers. He was using a "trick"—a technique—published in the peer-reviewed scientific literature.

This email exchange from 1999 seems to refer to scientists examining past climate data and communicating with one another about it. In particular, Jones is talking about how scientists compare temperature data from thermometers with temperature data derived from tree rings. Comparing that data allows scientists to derive past temperature data for several centuries before accurate thermometer measurements were available. The global average surface temperature since 1880 is based on thermometer and satellite temperature measurements.

The "trick" is actually a technique (in other words, a "trick of the trade") used in a peer-reviewed, academic science journal article published in 1998. "Hiding the decline," another phrase that has received much attention, refers to another technique used in another academic science journal article. In any case, no one was tricking anyone or hiding anything. Rather, this email exchange shows scientists communicating about different ways to look at the same data that were being discussed at the time in the peer-reviewed literature. Later the same data were discussed at length in a 2007 IPCC report.

In some parts of the world, tree rings are a good substitute for temperature record. Trees form a ring of new growth every growing season. Generally, warmer temperatures produce thicker tree rings, while colder temperatures produce thinner ones. Other factors, such as precipitation, soil properties, and the tree's age also can affect tree ring growth.

The "trick," which was used in a paper published in 1998 in the science journal Nature, is to combine the older tree ring data with thermometer data. Combining the two data sets can be difficult, and scientists are always interested in new ways to make temperature records more accurate.

Tree rings are a largely consistent source of data for the past 2,000 years. But since the 1960s, scientists have noticed there are a handful of tree species in certain areas that appear to indicate temperatures that are warmer or colder than we actually know they are from direct thermometer measurement at weather stations.

"Hiding the decline" in this email refers to omitting data from some Siberian trees after 1960. This omission was openly discussed in the latest climate science update in 2007 from the IPCC, so it is not "hidden" at all.

Why Siberian trees? In the Yamal region of Siberia, there is a small set of trees with rings that are thinner than expected after 1960 when compared with actual thermometer measurements there. Scientists are still trying to figure out why these trees are outliers. Some analyses have left out the data from these trees after 1960 and have used thermometer temperatures instead.

Techniques like this "trick" help scientists reconstruct past climate temperature records based on the best available data.

In another email, Kevin Trenberth, a climate scientist at the National Center for Atmospheric Research in Colorado, wrote that systems for observing short-term annual climate variation are inadequate and complained: "The fact is that we can't account for the lack of warming at the moment, and it is a travesty that we can't…. Our observing system is inadequate."

Scientists have a very high degree of confidence about the climate over long periods of time because those observations are based on a massive amount of data. That's why we can say with certainty that over the past several decades, the Earth has warmed. We can also say with certainty that continuing to overload the atmosphere with carbon dioxide will cause it to warm further.

But scientists are still trying to understand how the climate shifts in the short term, on a year-to-year basis for instance. In this email, Trenberth is bemoaning the lack of monitoring equipment in the ocean and atmosphere around the world that would give scientists more information to help understand exactly how short-term climate variation happens. In particular, he references 2008, which was cooler than scientists expected, but still among the 10 warmest years since instrumental records began.

The sentiments in Trenberth's private email reflect his public communication. Trenberth talked about this same issue in a scientific paper in 2009 (pdf), in which he addresses this exact question.

Some emails do raise valid scientific integrity concerns, but they do not undermine the science.

Some emails relating to avoiding freedom of information requests and keeping articles out of journals or assessments rightfully raise concerns about scientific integrity. In all cases, scientists should always be as open as possible with their data and methods. Transparency is critical for accountability on all sides. For his part, Phil Jones claims he didn't delete any email messages in response to freedom of information requests. If he did, that conduct would be unacceptable. But to date, there is no evidence that any emails were deleted.

Science must be viewed in context to be understood. When one places the emails in context, they don't amount to much—and as noted above, they do not undermine climate data or research. Likewise, it is important to understand the scientific integrity claims against the scientists in context.

Regardless of whether the University of East Anglia's Climatic Research Unit staff complied with freedom of information requests, their data is still rigorous and matches the three other independent temperature data sets at NASA, the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration and the Japanese Meteorological Society.

Much has been made about emails regarding a certain paper that some scientists did not think should have been published in a peer-reviewed academic journal. These emails focus on a paper on solar variability in the climate over time. It was published in a peer-reviewed journal called Climate Research, but under unusual circumstances. Half of the editorial board of Climate Research resigned in protest against what they felt was a failure of the peer review process. The paper, which argued that current warming was unexceptional, was disputed by scientists whose work was cited in the paper. Many subsequent publications set the record straight, which demonstrates how the peer review process over time corrects such lapses. Scientists later discovered that the paper was funded by the American Petroleum Institute.

In a later e-mail, Phil Jones references two other papers he didn't hold in high esteem. "I can't see either of these papers being in the next IPCC report. Kevin and I will keep, them out somehow - even if we have to redefine what the peer-review literature is!"

The exclamation point at the end of the e-mail might suggest it is not a serious statement, though tone in email is hard to detect. Even if it was a serious threat, Jones failed. Both the papers in question made it into the IPCC report. The IPCC process contains hundreds of reviewers, so a small group can not have undue influence on what it contained in the final report. The IPCC's overall aim is to gather and summarize all relevant climate studies, including minority viewpoints.

The fact that groups opposing action on climate change are crying "conspiracy" shows how desperate they are to discredit scientists.

The thousands of stolen emails span more than a decade. Whoever stole them could only produce a handful of messages that, when taken out of context, might seem suspicious to people who are not familiar with the intimate details of climate science.

Opponents of climate action have been attacking climate for years. The fact that out-of-context personal attacks on scientists are the most successful argument they can offer speaks volumes about their failure to gain any traction by arguing against the evidence.

They have unfortunate consequences, too. On December 8, the Guardian reported that University of East Anglia scientists have been receiving death threats.

The timing of the publication of these emails should make us suspicious about the motivations of the people who hacked them.

The stolen emails were published just two weeks ahead of a major U.N. climate change conference in Copenhagen. According to a British newspaper, they were originally hacked in October. Whoever published these emails likely wanted to spread misinformation about climate science to try to undermine the conference. The University of East Anglia, which housed the emails, has launched an investigation to determine who stole them.

Scientists are as human as anybody else.

Some of the other emails simply show scientists expressing frustration and—in one email—even talking (not seriously, we hope) about beating up someone whose views they find objectionable. Such chatter is not suprising to find in private emails. But they have generated widespread attention in part because they don't mesh with the public's image of scientists.

Scientists have a wide array of dispositions. But regardless of how scientists act, they should all advance their arguments through evidence and valid scientific interpretations. The process of science is what is important. It weeds out bad arguments. And only the best explanations for how the world works—such as the obvious evidence that carbon dioxide production is driving global warming—survive the process.

Reply #209 Top

I woke up to about 7 inches of global warming this morning

Reply #210 Top

I like how Mumblefratz has comprehensively pwned this thread.  Even Psychoak seems more lovable than usual..

Thanks for the excellent research, M. 

 

Two children playing with matches start a fire.  The house begins to burn.  One child runs to get a bucket.  The other insists that there is no fire and he didn't start it if there were.  When the first child comes back with a bucketful of water, the second child trips him. 

That's about the level of dialogue we are dealing with here.  Congratulations, humanity. 

 

The fascinating part for me is this:

Hypothetically saying the worst case scenario comes true and even the Flat Earthers have to accept that we are living the Grim Meathook Future - would any of them ever, ever accept culpability for creating that future?  How far down the dark road do you go before you have to openly discard the rotten parts of your ideology?

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Reply #211 Top

Quoting mbaron888, reply 209
I woke up to about 7 inches of global warming this morning
Did you take it all in or just roll it around in your mouth for a while?

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Reply #212 Top

Quoting HorseStrangler, reply 211



Quoting mbaron888,
reply 209
I woke up to about 7 inches of global warming this morningDid you take it all in or just roll it around in your mouth for a while?

I perfer to keep the snow outside rather than bringing it into the house. I don't eat snow either. Yuck!

Reply #213 Top

I think that was a sexual joke.

Reply #214 Top

lol

Reply #215 Top

Thanks for the excellent research, M.
Thank you for your support.

That's about the level of dialogue we are dealing with here. Congratulations, humanity.
I made this point earlier in the thread but no one really picked up on it. It was kind of buried as just one point in an otherwise long reply so to highlight it again all of these denial arguments remind me so much of the arguments that we used to hear from the tobacco industry shills.

In fact a number of the astroturf organizations (i.e. conservative think tanks) that so vociferously oppose the idea of AGW got their start as tobacco lobbyists and to this very day get significant funding from Phillip Morris along with the more expected sources of ExxonMobil, Koch Industries, Texaco/Chevron, et. al.

The following are just a few quick examples of “conservative think tanks” that are prominent in the AGW denier literature that either got their start as tobacco company shills or are even involved in opposing anti-smoking legislation to this very day.

Competitive Enterprise Institute, http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Competitive_Enterprise_Institute

Citizens for a Sound Economy, http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Citizens_for_a_Sound_Economy

Heartland Institute, http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Heartland_Institute

The point of this is that the AGW deniers are using the same techniques (and same organizations) today that the tobacco industry used for so many years. And why not when those techniques were so effective at delaying legislation long after the scientific fact that smoking was bad both for smokers themselves as well as those around them was well established?

The point is that you don’t have to “prove” anything. You can make the most outlandish of statements and then demand that the other side disprove them and if they don’t then wonderful but even if they do disprove them it really doesn’t matter because their only point is to cause enough noise to be able to say that “the science isn’t settled” or that there’s some kind of “controversy” and we need more study and can’t do anything in the meantime.

Basically this methodology has become the basis for pretty much all conservative argument. The healthcare debate is full of similar arguments. Claims of “death panels”, “rationing of care” and “socialized medicine” are all just noise intended to scare people.

The point is that when someone tells you that they’re an asshole and continues to prove it on a daily basis then why is it so surprising that everything coming out of their mouth is shit?

Reply #216 Top

Reply #217 Top

To me this is the smoking gun of global warming because there is simply no plausible explanation other than increases in heat-trapping pollution in the atmosphere.

The argument's Achilles heel.

Reply #218 Top

I always find it more than a bit obnoxious that those of us who are skeptical about AWG are treated as if we're ignorant or brain washed.

Different people have different thresholds of evidence needed to be convinced of something.

I find it particularly obnoxious to be compared to the tobacco lobby.

If you guys want to focus on politics, feel free to go onto JoeUser or PoliticalMachine.com.  

 

Reply #219 Top

ok ... it is sad that there is real politics, this is true.

What about political systems in-place in the game? I mean do adopt one simple system, perhaps to work alongside "civics" ... where a nation adopts either a Creed, Motto, Monolythic Government, Guild, something whatever its called. This Creed will give acess to special units as well as special abilities.

 

Like the necromancer creed will have better summons and a weaker economy, or a Nature creed will have less expensive and more varied terraforming abilities, as well as require less food/make extra food, ect.

And the Shadow creed enables sneak attacks more readily, and provides Mercenary Assasin heroes more readily, and allows you to recruit an Assasin hero permanently. Downside is it does not provide major economic effects that the other religions do.

Gold creed could increase mining production and commerce.

Fire creed could have increased city morale/prestige, although prestige bonus begins to turn into a penalty if as many as 2 extra creeds are present within city ... so in order to have maximum Monetary/Law bonuses, as well as Prestige bonuses, you need to remove other creeds from your cities in some way.

There could be bonuses for the Headquarters of a Creed, whoever adopted the creed first could have first opportunity to build the Headquarters of the Creed ( a 20 turn block on later adopters to start building the headquarters ... arbitrary, but better than only allowing initial adopter to build headquarters).

Water Creed could allow for much cheaper, and much more effective, healing priestesses, which only require a minor ice-kit in order to be created (special ice kit called priestess kit, 75% cost of normal ice-kit, and double as effective, only for healing though, all damage spells by water priestesses are decreased in damage/attack 50%)

The options are endless, as you can soon see, but either way, whether you call it Government, Creed, Guild, or whatever ... the gaming effects will be seen. I would advise no more than 7 major creeds, although due to the size of the Elemental game maybe as many as 12 major creeds as possible, as well as perhaps several minor guilds which synergize with certain creeds, or are unlocked in special ways.

Reply #220 Top

I find it particularly obnoxious to be compared to the tobacco lobby.

Being obnoxious appears to be a prerequisite for AGW advocacy.  Certainly common enough.

Reply #221 Top

Oh come on, who wouldn't want to be compared to the tobacco lobby?  It's not like they've helped cause the premature death of half my grandparents generation...

 

The worst case scenario, the real one, not Al "Dipshit" Gore's myth, is that we'll gain more time for growing seasons and double the food output of the world in return for Florida, Italy, parts of Asia, and a few other sand bars we've been so foolish as to think will always be above water.  There are countless settlements under the ocean already where man used to be when the planet was a little less out of the ice age.  Even if it happens, it's been happening the whole time and no one bothered to mention it.  We've lost dozens of feet just since the America's were originally colonized by the native American's, that's why they were so confused about them magically appearing on the wrong side of South America first.  Everything older is below sea level.

 

The tree rings aren't showing the warming, the temperatures where the ice core samples are from aren't increasing either.  Our temperature record is completely inconclusive and we're trying to give ourselves the shaft just to avoid some minor land distribution changes.  Places like Italy might be in disagreement, but humanity in general will suffer not the slightest.  All this while the scientists pushing it are saying "Well we can't explain these discrepancies, but we know for a fact that it's this way because of X" and to hell with anyone that calls bullshit.

 

I'd rather be an asshole than a sucker.

 

I feel so well behaved it's depressing, I just deleted the perfect joke to go with that last line...

Reply #222 Top

Thanks for the warning.

I have no desire to anger the site owner.

Since I'm not sure which of my opinions might do so, I'll just keep them to myself in the future.

Reply #223 Top

@ Frogboy

Personal skepticism isn't the issue.  Your beliefs are totally valid, and comparing you or anyone else in this thread to the tobacco lobby would be stupid, at best. 

On a policy level, however, several of the institutions and organizations which, coincidentally, profess skepticism about global warming share some or all composition, financial structure, and strategy with the tobacco lobby of the last half century.  I know that's inconvenient, and it might dip into politics rather than science, but it can't be debated. 

Again on a policy level, you can't deny that having Satan's Spin Doctors on your side can only be a good thing, whatever moral qualms it may give you.

@Psychoak

the TL;DR version is "worst case - we lose Italy and Florida, but whatever?"  That's an interesting argument against change.  I take it you aren't in marketing?

"Our new product kills 15% of its users but the other 85% do just fine and we cut costs by skipping the quality and safety assurance!"

 

 

 

 

 

 

Reply #224 Top
Scientific fact is not opinion. I'll believe those who know better than me*. *In their area of expertise.
Reply #225 Top

Well, I guess I should have babysat this thread a little more... Sorry Frogboy for the offense, and sorry to all the rest of you for not keeping a closer eye on it.

 

I did NOT want this thing to delve into the global warming farce... I wanted to bring to light that Science is very rapidly loosing credibility.  When politics are allowed to influence the outcome of theories, Science has turned into a new religion.

This article illustrates best what I was looking into.

http://meganmcardle.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/11/the_real_problem_with_the_clim.php

If their model has so many problems, why are we to believe its outcome?  We STILL can not get a reliable weather forecast for 1 week out into the future... what makes us think we can understand the entire worlds weather patterns?