economic/diplomatc win (aka win without fight)

from Sins Forums

It would be really graeat to have another way of winning than "get tons of cash, get tons of ships, go for enemy" (singleplayer) or "have someone get tons of cash, someone else tons of ships and go for enemy" (multiplayer). The game would benefit a lot from it, both online and offline.

Diplomacy was supposed to bring new ways of winning the game - there are no signs of something like this coming. You still can only win by building an army larger than yor enemies and crush them. Maybe there are some more ways of doing this with current diplomacy features, but the main concept is still the same. I think it would be nice to have a way to actually win the game without having to build a large fleet - ideally winning "without firing a single shot" (well except for killing defenders on neutral worlds maybe). Some possibilities could be

 

* a game ending building. it would cost a huge pile of ressources and/or time, also if you start building it all other empires get a message that you build it so they will probably attack you. If built, it would either give you and maybe your allies a huuuge advntage (like +25% damage/hp on all ships, all planets immune to bombing, complete enemy ship and planet vision or insanely accelerated ship manufacturing) or simply give you instant win. this would allow for new strategies in single player as well as in multiplayer where you could have the feeder build the structure while the others have to do everything to defend it. It would be something different from super weapons as it would require civil research only and would give you a global benefit and also make you a primary target - at the moment super guns are usually ignored as attack targets by AI and humn players as well.

 

* a diplomatic win. This would start with your embassy/diplomatic outpost being able to enforce cease fires in certain areas/for certain times, and could finish in being able to make enemy ships refuse to follow orders or even rebel and turn against their owner. This would also require no attacks from your side. It would also be possible to add a way to negotiate with neutral planet governments to join your empire, making it unnecessary to fight the rebels in orbit. So you would virtually have no reason to get fleet as economist/diplomat. (i think this has already been suggested somewhere).

 

*economic winning. Besides of the game-ending structure aove there could be things like hiring pirates to help you fighting (see thread on this) or ways to bribe enemies with cash. This way you could focus on your economy, using pure income to defend yourself.

 

This are just first ideas of what could be done in order to add more possibilities to the players. I think at least some of them they are not that difficult to implement and would greatly increase game experience.

 

6,957 views 7 replies
Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top

well... the "game ending building"... is kinda your superweapons... if your opponent churns out a few novaliths... then there is a "time limit" before your economy is gone.

Although a "wonder victory"... (build insanely pricey worthless building, protect insanely pricey worthless building for X years)... would be intesting (it would also open up a game mode like "defend the wonder" where one player starts with a wonder... a starbase... a few starting labs... and 4x the resources...  and the other 9 or so players have to take it down.

I like your idea of a "pacify rebels" ablity on your envoy cruiser... and it gives you a choice... do you kill the rebels and get exp for your cap? or do you cause them to become friendly to you (and you to them) so that they will defend your planet for you... something like that would be great for multiplayer.  (if you managed to find... idk... 2 other unique ablities for advent and vasari.... this ablity would make the most sence for TEC...

Considering that armistice is a lv 6 cap ship ablity.... I dont feel fond of giving diplomatic cruisers something even more powerfull... Idk... I do think that a lv 8 diplomatic tech or 2 should be in order... and it could be something like this.

I like the idea of hiring pirates... but it would have to be very costly compared to building a fleet to be balanced.

 

Sins of a Solar Empire II
Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top

I'm against a game ending building, but a diplomatic "star fort" that takes up said forts logistic slot in a grav well would be an intresting addition...kind of a "super media center". An overtly diplomatic victory itself is hard to come up with, since it must be used by players against other players and the AI. Its hard to imagine many players getting diplomatic when they know they are helping someone else win. The best solution is probably more simpler, more subtle means of allowing players to win by bypassing other players interaction, like buying low loyalty planets, where every planet below 50% is for sale (if there are no cap ships in orbit).

 

 

Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top

Or just a plain "nice planet, I'll buy it" option.

Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top

what if you could buy off the people on a planet causing them ro revolt and you get the planet and non-military universal structures

Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top

I agree.

Sins would benefit from taking a look at the Civilization series (actually, I would bet they already did). There's a reason Civilization is valued as one of the best and most famous games of all time. In Civilization IV, there are six or seven different ways to win of which only two are conquest-orientated. Of course, though, capturing more territory will make it easier to achieve the other goals, as well, and vice versa.

In Sins, a non-combat victory is nigh impossible. Having culture or a strong economy helps but ultimately, its only purpose is to fuel the war machine. It doesn't work in itself.

Sins has the opportunity of becoming the real-time, more action-orientated (and frankly, more interesting) version of Civ. The roots are already there, with the GalCiv series from StarDock. It is clear that the developers were already aiming for this to some degree but I don't think they went far enough - for example, it's just too easy to counter a cultural encroachment strategy. The whole 'culture-based soft warfare' concept could be highly interesting but it would require it be made more powerful. Having superior culture is one of the ways to win in Civ, as well.

Perhaps I should just list the victory options available in Civilization IV to show just how close it comes to being what the original poster (and many others, obviously) are requesting. It should be noted the Civ has many other interesting concepts that could be adopted, some of which already are (the vassal state concept to name one). The victory conditions in Civ are:

Conquest: Eliminate all enemies

Domination: Control a majority of the world's population & territory

Cultural: Three cities with 'legendary' culture

Diplomatic: Being elected leader of a world government (which typically requires good relations to other players or simply sheer map dominance to force it through. This is the option that's supposedly being added with the Diplomacy expansion)

Space race: 1st to launch space ship to Alpha Centauri. This is the economic win as building the ship is very expensive

Score victory: If no other condition is met after the game ends (Civ is turn based with a ~500 turn limit per game), the highest scoring player wins.

Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top

This isn't in the cards for Diplomacy, but it should be possible to win by playing heavily diplomatic and defensive (albeit extremely difficult). You would essentially need to get others to do your dirty work for you to accomplish military goals when needed, and use your diplomatic abilities to form alliances with others.