Artysim Artysim

A Tax Everyone Can Stomach

A Tax Everyone Can Stomach

Hey did you hear? It turns out that the recession is over! Nevermind that the real unemployment rate is creeping up on 20%

Never mind that companies and individuals the world over have had to cut their spending to the bone, close their doors, lose their homes, declare bankruptcy, or visit pawn shops to make an extra buck.

Never mind that trillions of dollars of public money has gone into private hands "for the good of the economy" all the while causing governments to make tough decisions between whether or not to keep paying grannie smith her pension or close the public library (who needs books anyway!?! Seriously...)

No, the masters of the universe, the major banks and financial investment firms have cheerily declared that the emergency is over. While millions across the globe face a dark future of either sub-standard work, no work or a lifetime of transient labor (it's called going where the work is, look up the history of coal miners in 19th century America) The banks have had their keesters pulled out of the fire and in their books all is well now.

Now that the predatory, flawed system of casino capitalism has been preserved with YOUR tax dollars, the banks are quite content to sit back, pull in a decent profit and watch from their glass towers while the ants below (that's you and me) languish and fight each other for whatever scraps are left over.

Don't believe me? All the mouthpieces from the ass-hat economists who never saw the fiasco coming to well-paid analysts are saying the same thing; life for corporate America is safe, as for the rest of us, well, we can go pound sand. After we bailed them out, they've turned around and said

"Hey, thanks for the help. We're fine now, so you can fuck off. I hear Wal-mart might be hiring in the next county"

The situation isn't right, nor is it fair, and there's a lot of things I think should be done to these folks that will most assuredly never come to be.

But one thing that can and -should- be done?

Let's tax the hell out of them!

Now don't get your panties in a knot. I'm not talking about taxing "the rich", or about taking money from the well-to-do small business owner who's struggling to break even, or the middle class (which by the way is disapearing rapidly)

No, I want to tax the FINANCIAL economy.

For anyone not familiar, we have two types of economy. The first is the real economy. This is widgets built or services rendered. "Widget" means anything from furniture to cars to food to software. Something tangible. Services rendered is everything from a plumber fixing that leak in your house to the barber who gives you a haircut to the accountant who does your taxes.

The financial economy, however is another matter entirely. This economy was never intended to be it's own little world but started out as a means of supporting and growing the real economy. However, things have gotten flipped around and now the financial economy has largely become parasitic to the real economy -and- exists in a magical world of make believe in which virtual money trades hands, and, magically creates more virtual money.

It's all quite convoluted but to a great extent it's become the world's biggest show of smoke and mirrors to hide the fact that no real work is being done or goods produced to "create" all of this virtual wealth. As a side effect of creating this world of financial make-believe, the real world consequences are quite apparent as ultimately the buck has to stop somewhere and it's turned out to be the real economy. Shenanigans and "exotic" debt models created by the banks purely based on a greed for profit have mucked up things royally back in real world resulting in massive unemployment, bankruptcies and foreclosures galore.

So, back to my solution.

In order to reign in the beast and return the financial economy to it's rightful place as a support mechanism, we should tax financial transactions.

Everytime a share of stock  is bought, we should put a 0.25 % financial transactions tax on it.

This means, if you were to buy 10,000 dollars of stock you would pay 25 dollars at the time of purchase in tax. If, 10 years later you were to sell that same stock for 20,000 dollars, you would have to pay a whole 50 dollars. No big deal right?

Under this system, if you're buying stock with the intent of holding on to it for awhile (as it should be) you've got  nothing to worry about.

If you're a day trader who buys at 1 PM with the intent of selling at 2 PM, this will take a bigger chunk out of your pocket and discourage such practices.

A financial transactions tax doesn't address all the issues but it's a start, and it penalizes the speculators who want to turn a fast buck for no work. Fuck them, they can and should get a job at Wal-mart alongside the recently laid off manufacturing worker!

The best part? This isn't my idea. It's already being done in England and I got the concept from this article:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2009/nov/09/us-wall-street-financial-transactions-tax

 

43,839 views 42 replies
Reply #26 Top

[quote]Um, Nitro..... U.S wounded in Iraq alone is 30,182 wounded and 4,280 killed. Put the two numbers together, and you get 34,462 casualties (that's wounded + killed) http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/iraq_casualties.htm[/quote]

Nice chart and nice big page explanation of methodology. Maybe they are counting boo boos (they do, even in peacetime). I gave you the Department of Defense figures (they might be counting only combat causalities) LINK even breaks it down by state. Statistics. Of course I've seen plenty of men die, and even more hurt and that was between wars. It happens. Have you ever picked up body parts Arty? If not I guess you can read about it.

Of those 1.6 million deployments, several studies conducted estimate that the number of mental-health injuries comprise approximately 300,000 returning servicemen, a far higher number than the 100,000 I quoted.
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Yeah here's another Obama friendly source (CBS), granted from last year, quoting metal health "casualties" LINK . Funny, I had to fill out one of these silly questionnaires when I got out. Are you sad, do you have trouble sleeping, blah, blah, blah I wouldn't be surprised if give to Canada half your population would have PSTD! But you read it somewhere...it must be true. I'm sure there are some people that can't handle stress well. Then there are those that like to convince people their is something wrong with them because they had a bad day.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24183188
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:rofl:   :rofl: :rofl: The number's here will really get better soon on the Obama news network.

By 2007 the ratio was 1 contractor per 1.4 soldiers Keep in mind these are all purely "defence and defence related" contractors, all getting paid a lot more than what a counterpart U.S serviceman is getting. A report from the GAO in 2006 stated that of all the defence contractors in the country, approximately 48,000 were armed security services, essentially hired guns like Blackwater, Triple Canopy, Custer Battles and so forth.
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I guess the U.S. Central Command, July 2007, is full of crap then. 67659 workers in Iraq and Afghanistan. If I multiply that figure by 1.4, I get 94722.6 hardly half of the troops that are there  LINK . Damn statistics! So who do you trust? A Canadian civilian with an Internet connection I suppose! LOL! 

Since you're such an expert, Nitro, about the military, why don't you recount to me the speech Rumsfeld gave to the Pentagon on Sept. 10, 2001?
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Obama had a speech too, in 2008, stating his plan for US troops to be removed from Iraq by March 31, 2009 LINK

Now what was your point????

Show me a politician, elected or appointed, and I'll show you a speech not worth the paper (or teleprompter) it's written on. Your statement is laughable. Do you believe everything you read and hear as fact that something will occur?

Then of course you had the ever famous Halliburton which took on dozens of the army's traditional functions like repairing and maintaining vehicles and radios.
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Good! Someone got to do the fighting. they don't have time to fix vehicles (though some there do). Haliburton takes care of depot level (with the military, mostly in Kuwait, ever been? It's expensive.). This ain't Canada, eh?

I could go on and on. Entire books have been written on the subject.... "Blackwater" by Jeremy Scahill is a good one you should read, but suffice it to say that "this man's army" sure aint what it used to be and has had many of it's traditional roles outsourced entirely, all being paid for by top taxpayer dollar!
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And on and on you go. It's easy to be a stay at home chicken shit, when you could join and find out for yourself, right? But that isn't you is it. It's much easier to criticize a military that isn't even your own. Get in line, there are plenty of asshats here ahead of you. Barnes and Nobles is full of books where you can find support your for position, and better proposed. That don't make it a reality. I wonder if scrubs that never never served like to tell their doctors how to operate too?

You have a fascination with Rumsfeld, I didn't care much for him either, but he sure as hell didn't run the military. Not in the way you give him credit. Maybe you want troops to get off patrol and cook their meals, clean barracks, etc. Well I say anything that makes those men and womens comfort easier after a day of putting their lives on the line, is worth it. Maybe these contractors get paid too much, people aren't exactly flocking to work there, but I don't have to tell you that do I Mr. Self-sacrifice?  

Indeed. I think that social security and medicare in the U.S should be abolished entirely. While you're at it, why don't you get rid of the public education system too? I mean, it's not like the U.S has a bunch of retirees that are depending on any of these programs. Let's let granny smith freeze to death and lower the surplus population
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Ah liberal sarcasm, gotta love it. They want to show off their "knowledge" then get their panties in a twist when  it is shown for what it is. BTW I used your link on another thread, thanks!

And that fellow who gave 15 or 20 years of service at Ford or Chrysler and just lost his job, how dare the slacker expect a handout, let him pull himself up by his bootstraps!
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They signed their contracts, I signed mine...only exception I wasn't in a Union. Might have had a little more stashed if they didn't pay their dues. Bet the union bosses still have a job. See how well that worked out!

I'm not entirely unsympathetic to their plight, even though they share the greed with the company that created that monster. They did however pay into unemployment insurance (same as me) so they have that. Obama keeps adding weeks to collect unemployment. Funny the only time he had a problem with spending was for the already won Iraq war.

Anyway let me know when you write an article fixing Canada. I have plenty of solutions, speeches, and websites so we can get it straightened out quick. After all it is about the population of the largest 10 US cities, give or take a few.  ;)

Reply #27 Top

They signed their contracts, I signed mine...only exception I wasn't in a Union. Might have had a little more stashed if they didn't pay their dues. Bet the union bosses still have a job. See how well that worked out!
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I love how "evil unions" keep getting blamed for so many of your economic problems and yet they make up only 10 % of your workforce. The truth is that unionized labor in the U.S had it's back broken by Reagan and never really recovered, getting stomped on by every single president since Ol 'Ronnie (Clinton was actually one of the worst FYI)

But yet, the auto-manufacturing sector in Germany and Japan is fully unionized and they're doing a hell of a lot better than their American counter-parts...... hmmmm, I wonder why that could be....

And on and on you go. It's easy to be a stay at home chicken shit, when you could join and find out for yourself, right? But that isn't you is it. It's much easier to criticize a military that isn't even your own. Get in line, there are plenty of asshats here ahead of you. Barnes and Nobles is full of books where you can find support your for position, and better proposed. That don't make it a reality. I wonder if scrubs that never never served like to tell their doctors how to operate too?
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Just trying to help Nitro. If you don't want to consider another viewpoint but instead put your hands over your ears and spout ideological blather it's you who is losing out, I'm sorry to say. All I was doing was providing a reference for my position, which I would be thrilled if you would consider. On the flip side, if you would recommend some literature espousing your viewpoint I would absolutely make the effort to investigate that.

Or, you can continue calling me a "stay at home chicken shit" which is terribly unproductive but somewhat entertaining nonetheless.

 And for the record, I did serve in the Army, joined up right after I graduated from High School. I never went to war but I did participate in the defense of my country.

Funny, I had to fill out one of these silly questionnaires when I got out. Are you sad, do you have trouble sleeping, blah, blah, blah I wouldn't be surprised if give to Canada half your population would have PSTD! But you read it somewhere...it must be true
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If you want to make fun of PTSD as something that's make believe I feel very sorry for you, and am shocked that you would so quickly mock and belittle your fellow veterans. ALL of the veterans organizations in the States and Canada seem to take PTSD pretty seriously and recognize it for what it is, a real problem that affects a lot more people than official numbers will ever tally. I especially enjoyed your other comments where you tauntingly asked if I had ever picked up body parts and then mentioned that you had.

In answer to your question, no, I have not and I'm thankful for it. I saw firsthand people with PTSD and it's not something I'd wish on anyone.

I guess the U.S. Central Command, July 2007, is full of crap then. 67659 workers in Iraq and Afghanistan
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Well, see here's the thing Nitro.... you linked to an article that says "as per central command there are x number workers in Iraq" and called it good at that. If you do a little more digging, you'll find that that was simply an estimate on their part and that thanks to the CPA's bungling and the fact that contracts were being handed out by multiple different agencies (dept. of state, various branches of the pentagon and so forth) -AND- look at the fact that much of the work was then further sub-contracted out, no one could really say for sure but only guess.

This if from the Congressional Research Service, which states that in 2009 the number of contractors to uniformed personnel is virtually 1:1

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/R40764.pdf

I gave you the Department of Defense figures (they might be counting only combat causalities)
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Nitro.... I'm sorry to break it to you but the numbers you provided are not the DOD figures for the entire Iraq War. The link below, is (defenselink.mil)

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/casualty.pdf

Let me break it down for you:

Total Deaths: 4,364

KIA: 3,476

Non-Hostile deaths: 888

wounded in action/returned to duty: 17,686

wounded in action/not returned to duty: 13,880

 

 

 

 

Reply #28 Top

I love how "evil unions" keep getting blamed for so many of your economic problems and yet they make up only 10 % of your workforce.
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Thank gawd for that! But even though they are in decline they spend more money on politics than ever and hold particular sway over this administration in-particular (got to repay those "contributions").

But yet, the auto-manufacturing sector in Germany and Japan is fully unionized and they're doing a hell of a lot better than their American counter-parts...... hmmmm, I wonder why that could be....
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Excellent question! Why don't you ask them why they don't use unions at their plants in the US? Maybe the US auto makers should follow suit. Perhaps the US Auto plants in let's say Canada would be a good start. Wouldn't you say?

Just trying to help Nitro.
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We don't need nor do we ask for your "help". We have plenty of morons in office here with similar ideas, thank you very much.

Funny, I had to fill out one of these silly questionnaires when I got out. Are you sad, do you have trouble sleeping, blah, blah, blah I wouldn't be surprised if give to Canada half your population would have PSTD! But you read it somewhere...it must be true

If you want to make fun of PTSD as something that's make believe I feel very sorry for you, and am shocked that you would so quickly mock and belittle your fellow veterans.
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You are an asshat aren't you? I relate my personal experience (not anyone else's) and you twist it (like your "research") to meet your needs. Congratulations. Your shallow condescending sympathy from the comfort of your home is not wanted or needed. I hope you never have to experience war, but since your in Canada there is nowhere else to run and hide is there?

Let me break it down for you:
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You obviously don't know jack about "causality " reporting. Anyone showing up for sick call is recorded. That includes hang nails, yeast infections, tooth aches...and a whole host of things that don't have a damn thing to do with war. In fact you might be surprised to know there were 4302 military deaths under president Clinton's watch, and he was in war denial during his term, so you can say it was peace time LINK. I know more damn statistics. But thanks anyway for your broke down break down.

If you want to wander through life believing what bureaucrats and agenda peddlers spoon feed you, be my guest. I'll take my personal experience over that, it has served me very well. It's your counterparts in the US that will pay dearly for their votes in the years to come, as many do not have the options I have available.

Reply #29 Top

We don't need nor do we ask for your "help". We have plenty of morons in office here with similar ideas, thank you very much.
End of quote

No problem, it's freely given. At this point in time, you guys need all the help you can get!

You obviously don't know jack about "causality " reporting. Anyone showing up for sick call is recorded. That includes hang nails, yeast infections, tooth aches...and a whole host of things that don't have a damn thing to do with war
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Got it, so let's get this straight:

I state that the U.S military has approximately 35,000 official casualties in Iraq alone (I should have stated explicitly COMBAT casualties, my bad for not doing so at the beginning) and you reply that I'm incorrect it's actually only 4,474.

I post my source which you state is wrong, as you have the "official tally".

I reply with the official document from the DOD stating that it is, indeed actually 35,000.

You blather on about how I'm an idiot on casualty reporting and how all those folks really just had hang-nails and yeast infections.

But here's the kicker- those numbers are explicitly -killed in action- and -wounded in action- hence do not include sick call and other casualties deemed non-hostile.

I really like how you can't admit that I was actually right about something, just go ahead and say it, it's really not very hard.

You are an asshat aren't you?
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Oh Nitro, how I do enjoy this dialogue!

What I was responding to was the fact that I had presented a valid source on PTSD of returning veterans (several studies conducted by RAND corporation and other medical groups) and you simply dismissed it out of hand as if it was just made up mumbo-jumbo, then went on to belittle the manner in which the medical condition of veterans is assessed.

Since we're talking personal stories my brother is actually a doctor in one of your VA hospitals in Kentucky (temporarily) and he's dealt with some of the returning casualties, which are far more than "hang-nails and sick calls" as you like to state.

Excellent question! Why don't you ask them why they don't use unions at their plants in the US?
End of quote

Umm, Nitro..... hate to break it to you, but a company doesn't "choose" to use a union at their plant, anymore so than a U.S manufacturer could "get rid of" the Canadian unions in it's auto plants.

Union's are formed by the workers, and there needs to be a majority vote. In the case of the German and Japanese companies who own auto plants in the U.S, the workers have never had a majority vote in favor of unionizing (by and large, there's been the odd one out where it happened and then died in the set-up stages after the vote)

The only way a company can "get rid of" a union at a plant is by closing it, which all of the big 3 automakers have done enmasse and moved a lot of U.S jobs to Mexico already.

But, if we go back to the German and Japanese examples they're sitting pretty. In fact, in Germany the Unions at the major automakers actually have a say in who gets on the board of directors of the company, something I would love to be adopted here!

 

 

Reply #30 Top

If you want to wander through life believing what bureaucrats and agenda peddlers spoon feed you
End of quote

Ha! This coming from the man who called me a "tax and spend liberal" a term straight out of the official list of accepted phrases from the "agenda peddlers" you state are spoon-feeding me.

You should be glad to know that most of my opinions will never see the light of day in your farce of a media which is owned and controlled by the corporate state. Yes, that's right "corporate" and "state" is what happens when the government stops playing their role as traffic cop and get's in bed with big business. That's the government you have now and it doesn't matter whether it's a dem or republican in office, as either will be beholden to these interests. This is why the following statement you made

It's your counterparts in the US that will pay dearly for their votes in the years to come,
End of quote

doesn't really matter because everyone's screwed regardless of whether they vote right or left. Until you get rid of the two party system, both parties will gladly screw the living daylights out of you, just each in their own special way (but that's another topic)

Reply #31 Top

you guys need all the help you can get!
End of quote

Perhaps so, just not from people that propose more taxes and don't pay them here.

What I was responding to was the fact that I had presented a valid source on PT SD of returning veterans (several studies conducted by RAND corporation and other medical groups) and you simply dismissed it out of hand as if it was just made up mambo-jumbo, then went on to belittle the manner in which the medical condition of veterans is assessed.
End of quote

No I told you how easy it was/is to claim PTSD and that half of Canada could probably claim the same symptoms. I'm skeptical of your numbers. Say RAND, RAND, RAND as much as you want, but did they review each claim? I doubt it. There is this little thing unfortunately call fraud, and sadly, I'm sure their are people abusing the system. How many, I don't know, and neither do you, or RAND. The screening, from what I've seen is a joke. But, I never suggested there ain't people that actually suffer from it. That's just a little something you added to try and validate your point.

Since we're talking personal stories my brother is actually a doctor in one of your VA hospitals in Kentucky (temporarily) and he's dealt with some of the returning casualties, which are far more than "hang-nails and sick calls" as you like to state.
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Ask him to get up to the front, then he will be able to tell you exactly what I'm talking about. For some reason they don't send the "causalities" I referred to, back stateside to a VA hospital. BTW glad it is only temporary for your brother. I heard about that town in Canada that has a lottery to see a doctor, sounds like they could use some help there. Here is the video clip covering Norwood, Ontario LINK. We'll discuss it more when we solve Canada's problems OK?

Umm, Nitro..... hate to break it to you, but a company doesn't "choose" to use a union at their plant, anymore so than a U.S manufacturer could "get rid of" the Canadian unions in it's auto plants.
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Ok, fair. My bad on the word "choose". So instead of mincing words why don't you just tell me why there are no unions at the foreign automakers stateside? They love em so much at home, they should be aggressively pushing for them here right? I guess the workers love working for less or are slaves to the company and don't want the union to rescue them. Thanks again for breaking it to me...I get it, your all about mis-direction.

You should be glad to know that most of my opinions will never see the light of day in your farce of a media which is owned and controlled by the corporate state.
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What a relief! Thank you. BTW it that the same farce media and/or controlling corporate state where you seem to get a lot of your information from? Just curious, since you like to quote/reference its institutions.

Now are you going to defend your OP or is that idea so moronic that you're relieved to be off topic?

Reply #32 Top

the auto-manufacturing sector in Germany and Japan is fully unionized and they're doing a hell of a lot better than their American counter-parts...... hmmmm, I wonder why that could be....
End of quote

What about France? It suffers routinely from strikes in numerous industries. Unions can have a positive influence if they work to make the company better (which benefits them by making their futures more secure), but can also be a negative influence if they try and force their wages up above the market rate, and/or strike+use other similar actions to try and blackmail the company into giving them what they want.

Reply #33 Top

Unions are a form of monopoly and are hence specifically exempted from anti-trust law. Their only purpose is to monopolise labour and hence drive prices for labour above the level they would be in a market without such monopoly power.

 

Reply #34 Top

Unions can have a positive influence if they work to make the company better (which benefits them by making their futures more secure), but can also be a negative influence if they try and force their wages up above the market rate, and/or strike+use other similar actions to try and blackmail the company into giving them what they want.
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Again we agree. Boeing got fed up with the 6 recent strikes by the machinist union and is moving production of its newest production line to South Carolina sans union. So what did some of the best paid workers in the US accomplish? That they can alienate themselves from management and lose future employment? Boeing will consider moving the more resources in the future as older aircraft production lines shut down.

Unions had their place in time, but now laws have caught up and in some cases surpassed them. Washington states loss is SC's gain though. Some people support the governments redistribution of wealth yet get upset when a company does it.

Reply #35 Top

Unions are a form of monopoly and are hence specifically exempted from anti-trust law. Their only purpose is to monopolise labour and hence drive prices for labour above the level they would be in a market without such monopoly power.
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Ahh yes, the famous "unions push wages above the market rates and therefore kill both themselves and their employer"

This argument is an oldie but a goldie. You want to know a funny statistic? Adjusted for inflation, in what year did the average North American worker bring in the most money?

The answer, is 1973. Since 1973, thanks to things like inflation, rising cost of living and so forth, wages actually stagnated and then dropped. Think about that for a second. Back in the early 70's, (on average) one income was sufficient to support a family and home. Now, that is not the case. Pound for pound, the money pulled in by what could be called "the middle class" has been shrinking and shrinking. What was the answer to this? Credit and debt!

Since folks no longer had enough hard currency, everyone went to credit cards. Most recently, we had the criminal banks tell us that our houses were 'like a bank' and convinced folks to refinance. When folks couldn't pay their bills, this resulted in the banks repossessing homes that some families had previously owned outright for decades. But let's nevermind that.

So why did the big change come about in the 70's?

A couple of reasons:

1) The government lied outright when it went off the gold standard and moved to a fiat currency (hello Bretton woods)

2) Unions were blamed as the bad guys for all sorts of evils, and a long slow process began which was cemented by ol' Ronnie Reagan with the air traffic controller's strike. In the public discussion, unions have been tarred as protecting lazy incompetent workers who want a free handout and a killer of business.

What happened? The unions shrunk to a tiny sliver of the workforce yet all kinds of nasty economic problems remain, what with the near 20% real unemployment rate you now face.

Meanwhile, those workers who have remained unionized, and were lucky enough not to have their jobs outsourced to Mexico or Thailand, have actually merely been pushing for a living wage, that adjusted for inflation is middle of the road. While the rich have been getting richer, the guy in the middle asking for his piece of the pie has apparently become tabboo, and so his job must be shipped overseas in the name of free markets!

I'm a unionized worker for a profitable company, but I can guarantee you that if we weren't unionized myself and my colleagues would probably take home much less than we do now while the executive and board of directors would be giving themselves a nice fat bonus for "a job well done"!

So instead of mincing words why don't you just tell me why there are no unions at the foreign automakers stateside?
End of quote

Well to be honest, you'd have to ask the workers in those factories why they decided not to unionize.... they are free to at any time.

But then again, as I stated earlier, unionized labor is only 10 % of your work force and has been on the decline for decades.... the auto sector is one of the few last "holdouts" and once that goes, your economy will still be shit, all of your high-end jobs will still be outsourced but you won't have the ebil unions (whom you can thank for things like the weekend) to blame! (My point, in case you haven't noticed, is that a disproportionate amount of your problems have been pinned on a tiny segment of your economy)

Boeing got fed up with the 6 recent strikes by the machinist union and is moving production of its newest production line to South Carolina sans union. So what did some of the best paid workers in the US accomplish? That they can alienate themselves from management and lose future employment? Boeing will consider moving the more resources in the future as older aircraft production lines shut down.
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Well, here's the thing Nitro- those workers in South Carolina have every right and availability to unionize, so Boeing has -temporarily- gotten it's production line into non-union labor. If the folks in S.C vote to unionize, then Boeing will eventually have to move it's production out of the country, oh wait, that's already happened to the vast majority of your entire industrial base!

 

Reply #36 Top

Adjusted for inflation, in what year did the average North American worker bring in the most money? The answer, is 1973
End of quote

Source please.

Reply #37 Top

So instead of mincing words why don't you just tell me why there are no unions at the foreign automakers stateside?

Well to be honest, you'd have to ask the workers in those factories why they decided not to unionize.... they are free to at any time.
End of quote

Come on you can do better than that! You're a smart guy, right? Surely these workers want the highest pay and benefits they can get, just like the workers in Japan an German auto plants, right?

Or maybe they just see how the UAW has destroyed jobs for tens of thousands and want no part of it. Oh there is a reason for the decline of the unions. It's because the workers are making a choice.

My mom was seamstress for about 31 years, under the ILGWU (International Ladies Garment Workers Union) once the largest union in the US, and retired in 93. She paid her dues each week and now reaps the benefit, $50 a month, and she had to petition to New York City to get it. All the little knitting mills in the area of PA where she lived dried up. My mom liked the union, they used to get "free" vaccinations out for the workers kids and even paid them $10 a day when they went on strike. By the mid 70's all those little perks were gone, but not the dues. The union rep didn't have it so bad. They cleared $500 a week take home pay in the 60's. What happened to that union? Like rats on a sinking ship, they merged with other unions, and now represent hotel and restaurant employees. Onto a new ponzi scheme.

Well, here's the thing Nitro- those workers in South Carolina have every right and availability to unionize, so Boeing has -temporarily- gotten it's production line into non-union labor. If the folks in S.C vote to unionize, then Boeing will eventually have to move it's production out of the country, oh wait, that's already happened to the vast majority of your entire industrial base!
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If their smart and they take a short history lesson, they will see how Washington State unionized themselves right out of a job. So how will unions keep jobs in the US when they can't even keep jobs for their members?

Reply #38 Top

My apologies, have been away for a few days-

Come on you can do better than that! You're a smart guy, right? Surely these workers want the highest pay and benefits they can get, just like the workers in Japan an German auto plants, right? Or maybe they just see how the UAW has destroyed jobs for tens of thousands and want no part of it. Oh there is a reason for the decline of the unions. It's because the workers are making a choice.
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Nitro, this truly does illustrate how little you actually understand about Unions.

-IF- the workers of a Toyota plant voted to unionize, that doesn't necessarily mean they would instantly become part of the UAW.

More likely, what would happen is they would be approached by the UAW who would say "hey, we've got lots of experience with this stuff, join us and we can help you out"

and again, the decision would be up to the workers whether or not they wanted to become part of the UAW. Becoming a part of a union doesn't necessarily mean that the workers automatically become sworn enemies of management, but instead that the workers of a business are bargaining for the value of their labor -collectively- rather than individually. Again, all of these foreign companies that are kicking GM and Ford in the teeth, are 100% unionized in their countries. Why? Because the workers in those plants voted for it.

Oh, and one othere little tidbit. One of the major reasons why Ford and GM have been hurting so bad is that they now have millions of retirees that the company is responsible for providing healthcare and retirement benefits. Their overseas competitors? They don't have to worry about that, except of course for their workers in American plants. The reason being, is that Germany and Japan both have a form of universal healthcare that takes care of that. Meanwhile, Ford and GM are left holding the bag for a sum (now in the billions of dollars) each year to take care of their retired workforce.

If their smart and they take a short history lesson, they will see how Washington State unionized themselves right out of a job. So how will unions keep jobs in the US when they can't even keep jobs for their members?
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This is a moot point as I've already stated. Only 10% of your workforce remains unionized and yet your economy is still shit. Going by the logic that all of the problems can be blamed on lazy, greedy workers wanting too much of the pie, once the unions are all gone then things should get better right?

WRONG!

South America is a perfect example of what you've got waiting in store. Most nations in south America were laboratories for Friedman economics which is where you'll be very soon. At the behest of the Chicago school of economics, these nations essentially broke their unions (quite often with military force), then privatized and de-regulated their entire economy (except of course for the military)

Once this happened, in virtually all cases 1% of the population lived like gods, another 10-20% lived decently (all the doctors, lawyers and engineers that you need to keep a society running) then you get a pretty small middle class and then nearly 50% of the population live in slums, as completely disposable human beings good for replacable labor in whatever banana mill the top dogs see fit to open with their vast wealth. And so it goes. And so it will go for the people of the U.S and A!

Reply #39 Top

Come on you can do better than that! You're a smart guy, right? Surely these workers want the highest pay and benefits they can get, just like the workers in Japan an German auto plants, right? Or maybe they just see how the UAW has destroyed jobs for tens of thousands and want no part of it. Oh there is a reason for the decline of the unions. It's because the workers are making a choice.

Nitro, this truly does illustrate how little you actually understand about Unions.

-IF- the workers of a Toyota plant voted to unionize, that doesn't necessarily mean they would instantly become part of the UAW.
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LOL It doesn't take much to understand these workers don't want unions. Your half-baked response truly illustrates your level of knowledge. Let me provide a LINK to the answer you are unable or unwilling to give.

Oh, and one othere little tidbit. One of the major reasons why Ford and GM have been hurting so bad is that they now have millions of retirees that the company is responsible for providing healthcare and retirement benefits. Their overseas competitors? They don't have to worry about that, except of course for their workers in American plants. The reason being, is that Germany and Japan both have a form of universal healthcare that takes care of that. Meanwhile, Ford and GM are left holding the bag for a sum (now in the billions of dollars) each year to take care of their retired workforce.
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Yeah, truly some sweet pension plans from the early days of the UAW. Things like 100% pensions (with cost of living increases), "Cadillac (no pun intended) medical plans, etc.  Foreign companies, Asia specifically (Europe has the socialized thing down pat), that paid a pittance of a salary, and let the state provide retirement and health care, until recent years won't see big problems for a few more years. US workers will soon have a choice: pay into their company retirement plan as well as the UHC plan or take the gubment plan (three, if you count the fine and/or imprisonment). Great choices, pay twice or take the "Yugo" plan (pun intended). Either way, what a deal. Oh that's right liberals and socialists think the government pays for that with their money LOL.

Only 10% of your workforce remains unionized and yet your economy is still shit. Going by the logic that all of the problems can be blamed on lazy, greedy workers wanting too much of the pie, once the unions are all gone then things should get better right?

WRONG!
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Nobody said that, nor was it implied. You, a obvious union fanboy, while acknowledging unions are decreasing, trumpeted the praises of the unions (How awesome they are in Japan and Germany). I asked you why they aren't growing in the US if they are so wonderful. You skirted my question with some irrelevant babble. All I suggested was their time has come and gone. They no longer have the interest of the worker, just their own bottom line. They have effectively became what they fought against. My opinion you don't have to like it.

This rotting corpse of an article, about creating a new tax, is really boring me (and judging from the lack of interest, others as well). It should have died a natural death after post 14. Instead, I humored your tirade on various topics much longer than politely reasonable. I'll let someone else play if they are the least bit interested or you can finish with some cleaver insight or remark.

 

Reply #40 Top

This rotting corpse of an article, about creating a new tax, is really boring me (and judging from the lack of interest, others as well). It should have died a natural death after post 14. Instead, I humored your tirade on various topics much longer than politely reasonable. I'll let someone else play if they are the least bit interested or you can finish with some cleaver insight or remark.
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Okay Mr. Cranky Pants!

No one is forcing you to post in this thread, last I checked. I do however, find it terribly entertaining when you hurl invective my way, so please do continue. No one was asking you to 'humor' my tirade, as last I checked this particular page happens to be my blog, and I am merely responding to comments posted. 'ats all.

You, a obvious union fanboy, while acknowledging unions are decreasing, trumpeted the praises of the unions (How awesome they are in Japan and Germany). I asked you why they aren't growing in the US if they are so wonderful. You skirted my question with some irrelevant babble.
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I acknowledged that Unions are decreasing in North America my good fellow, not the world over. In regards to why they aren't growing in the U.S, there is no quick and dirty answer but the real decline started under Reagan and has continued since (they've died a very slow death)

And, as the unions have declined, what has happened? The per capita income of CEO's has gone up several hundred times, whereas the income of middle-class households, adjusted for inflation has stagnated and even decreased since the mid-70's.

In addition, while the unionized work-force has continued to shrink, so too has your manufacturing base continued to be outsourced overseas, which doesn't lend much creedence to the lazy, greedy worker argument.

One thing I might like to add, is that when I've been in the States for work I've encountered a very heavy anti-union environment with my American counterparts. For example, I was in Boston last november during the election and was working with several folks from all over the States. When I mentioned that I was a member of Union, you could have heard a pin drop!

All of them, every single one, had never been a part of a union and had had it drilled into their heads through years of talk radio and the like that Unions were lazy and killed business. It was like they had seen a martian, or a ghost, and as I explained to them how unions actually work they were almost dumb-founded that the things I was saying were largely contradicting much of the propaganda they had been spoon-fed for much of their lives. So it could very well be that many U.S workers have not been properly educated about what Unionizing means!

 

Reply #41 Top

If you're a day trader who buys at 1 PM with the intent of selling at 2 PM, this will take a bigger chunk out of your pocket and discourage such practices.
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Most investors are sleeping; this process is called churning and should be outlawed.

Reply #42 Top

their time has come and gone.
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I' fear you are right. I'd much rather Congress legislating an iron-clad Labor Bill of Rights.