Wise Words Coming From Michigan

Anyone Listening?

http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=G44NCvNDLfc

 
Have you seen this from the floor of Congress?  I don't know much about Mr. Rogers from Michigan but he sure makes alot of sense for a politician and that's no easy task.  I think he should run for President.   I've never heard this man before and don't know anything about him but he sure hit it out of the ballpark with this one! 

The question is...is anyone listening? 

http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=G44NCvNDLfc

 

12,767 views 26 replies
Reply #1 Top

Sounds good, but I'll wait to be impressed when someone in congress admits they are being overpaid and does something about it.

Reply #2 Top

my husband came home from the office to tell me a story that is almost hilarious if not downright sad and stupid. 

He's a CPA working for this client (he's got lots of stupid IRS stories).  A year ago she forgot to add something to her tax return so they did a 1040X to fix it.  That should have been the end of it, paid up and done.  It was something simple.

She gets this bill for 26K from the IRS.  My husband upon her request calls the IRS.  Nobody seems to know why she got this bill.   A year and six agents later nothing has been resolved.  It goes from one hand to another with each time a long phone call after a long wait.  My husband listens to the music in the background while he works waiting.   Every single time my husband has to give his CPA number, his place of business the client's name etc..etc.  They put him on hold AGAIN while they go and get the file and come back and say "what's the problem? 

Then it ends with "well I don't know, send xyz and we'll look at it."  So he sends the requested information only to be told later when he calls back.... "well not sure what happened but we never received that information."  ON and ON it goes. 

A year later still not resolved.  This is a very simple matter. 

Today he says to the client... CAN YOU IMAGINE THE GOVERNMENT RUNNING THE HEALTHCARE BUSINESS? 

We're all going to be dead. 

 

Reply #3 Top

For the record, I too am against the current health bill that is being pushed in the U.S.

My position is best summed up by one of the few sane congressmen in the United States. He voted against the Iraq war, is one of the few politicians that actually knows how to spell "labor" in an era of neutered unions, and he voted against the health bill.

Here's his reasoning (which I agree wholeheartedly with) why:

"We have been led to believe that we must make our health care choices only within the current structure of a predatory, for-profit insurance system which makes money not providing health care. We cannot fault the insurance companies for being what they are. But we can fault legislation in which the government incentivizes the perpetuation, indeed the strengthening, of the for-profit health insurance industry, the very source of the problem. When health insurance companies deny care or raise premiums, co-pays and deductibles they are simply trying to make a profit. That is our system."

"Clearly, the insurance companies are the problem, not the solution. They are driving up the cost of health care. Because their massive bureaucracy avoids paying bills so effectively, they force hospitals and doctors to hire their own bureaucracy to fight the insurance companies to avoid getting stuck with an unfair share of the bills. The result is that since 1970, the number of physicians has increased by less than 200% while the number of administrators has increased by 3000%. It is no wonder that 31 cents of every health care dollar goes to administrative costs, not toward providing care. Even those with insurance are at risk. The single biggest cause of bankruptcies in the U.S. is health insurance policies that do not cover you when you get sick."

"But instead of working toward the elimination of for-profit insurance, H.R. 3962 would put the government in the role of accelerating the privatization of health care. In H.R. 3962, the government is requiring at least 21 million Americans to buy private health insurance from the very industry that causes costs to be so high, which will result in at least $70 billion in new annual revenue, much of which is coming from taxpayers. This inevitably will lead to even more costs, more subsidies, and higher profits for insurance companies - a bailout under a blue cross."

http://kucinich.us/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2838&Itemid=1

Reply #4 Top

If that loony Kucinich is against the current health bill, I am for it.

 

Reply #5 Top

When it comes to economics, I may be good with math but I know I can't figure out the numbers involved in the profits of insurance companies and such. However, there is one simple thing I do understand about insurance. Insurance was meant to be a "just in case" protection program, a program meant to provide medical care in case you needed it when the cost was beyond your reach. The idea was you paid into it, kinda like a savings account, and then if an accident happened, if an illness all of a sudden hit you or if you needed a normal check up from a doctor, the insurance was there to take care of you.

But this whole concept was mixed up when both the insurance companies and the people buying the insurance expect more from this service.  Insurance companies expected to make huge profits from people who would pay in to a service that they would use occasionally and that, like Social Security, enough people would pay in to cover any large medical cost of any one individual.

The people on the other hand expected to pay 10% prices on any medical need at any time and the insurance would swallow the other 90%. But when the peoples medical needs exceeded the insurance profits, thats when premiums would go up, when insurance companies would refuse to provide insurance to particular people or pay for particular medical treatment and they would, in some cases refuse to pay the bill leaving the people stuck with a huge medical bill that could easily ruin their financial status.

So on the one hand you have insurance companies wanting to make profits (which is the point of a business) and on the other hand you have people who want top of the line, expensive medical treatment at 90% discount rates and what you get is 2 groups of greedy people that don't care how they get what they want as long as they get it but the irony of the whole thing is how the 2 most important parts of this whole argument are ignored.

The price of medical treatment and the people who get stuck paying for it.

Why is no one fighting against high medical cost? Why is no one saying medical treatment is too expensive? Do doctors really need to drive Porches, Benz and own huge homes? Maybe they do, but why should people either die due to not being able to afford a needed treatment or ruin their economic future just to live another day in it?

Why do so few care about those who will get stuck with the cost of these high medical cost, the greed of the insurance companies and the people and the total lack of fiscal responsibility of the United States Gov't?

Greed from both sides is to blame, one wanting more money for less service and the other wanted more service for less money and neither one cares who pays for it so long as they get it and politicians only care about re-election, control and power.

Reply #6 Top

I'm sure no one here cares but pretty much every point Mr. Rogers makes has been debunked. See http://mediamattersaction.org/emailchecker/200910070011 if you care.

If that loony Kucinich is against the current health bill, I am for it.
I've always considered Kucinich too far to the left even for my taste but in this case I tend to agree with him.

Unless something substantial changes in conference I'm against HR3962 on the basis that it only provides lip service to true change and is therefore doomed to fail.

But the more people like you complain about it the more I have to rethink my position and consider supporting it. IF JU is against it then it must be good although for the life of me I don't really see what it is that you all are so afraid of. It's about as weak a public option as the right could hope for and it will in most likelihood be the refuge of only those that have been kicked off private plans, in other words a selected set of people with very high medical expenses. This will force the public option to end up being *more* expensive than private plans which of course will make it a complete failure.

I would think that the right would be drooling at the chance to allow this democratic plan to fall on it's face and reap the political benefits in 2010 and 2012.

The way I view it we may as well go with the status quo for another 10 years. By then the average family health insurance plan will be closer to $30K a year instead of $13K a year it is now and we'll have closer to 50% uninsured instead of only 15%. I can afford $30K insurance premiums, can you?

Anyway in another ten years perhaps the rural poor will see the error of voting for the interests of the wealthy and we'll finally get single payer directly instead of this pretense at reform that we have now.

Reply #7 Top

Quoting Mumblefratz, reply 6
I'm sure no one here cares but pretty much every point Mr. Rogers makes has been debunked. See http://mediamattersaction.org/emailchecker/200910070011 if you care.

I wouldn't say "debunked" when the criticism says that he is "technically right".

What I do find interesting is that the author keeps referring to 45,000 people who die every year because they don't have health insurance but doesn't bother to back up that claim with anything at all.

 

Reply #8 Top

I wouldn't say "debunked" when the criticism says that he is "technically right".
That's a single point and technically correct with a significant caveat.

"So Rogers' explanation of the section is technically right, but it comes with a caveat. Rather than the government being able to indiscriminately disenroll individuals and businesses from plans, people would only be removed from substandard plans after repeated warnings and attempts to correct those plans."

Did you read the whole thing or only just this one point? What about Finland, Sweden, Iceland and even Cuba's cancer survival rates? What about Roger's major campaign contributors?

What I do gind interesting is that the author keeps referring to 45,000 people who die every year because they don't have health insurance but doesn't bother to back up that claim with anything at all.
It's well documented but since you apparently haven't heard of google here's one out of millions of links you could have easily found on your own.

http://prescriptions.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/17/harvard-medical-study-links-lack-of-insurance-to-45000-us-deaths-a-year/

Reply #9 Top

It's well documented but since you apparently haven't heard of google here's one out of millions of links you could have easily found on your own.

'Well documented?'  I don't think so.  A wild ass guess based on worst-case estimates grounded in all sorts of false assumptions.  A number only a demagogue can love.

As they say, 'Never let the facts stand in the way of a darn good opinion.'

Reply #10 Top

"We have been led to believe that we must make our health care choices only within the current structure of a predatory, for-profit insurance system which makes money not providing health care. We cannot fault the insurance companies for being what they are. But we can fault legislation in which the government incentivizes the perpetuation, indeed the strengthening, of the for-profit health insurance industry, the very source of the problem. When health insurance companies deny care or raise premiums, co-pays and deductibles they are simply trying to make a profit. That is our system."

So we'd rather make our health care choices within the structure of a labyrinthine faceless bureaucracy that could give a shit whether we live or die and which saves money by not providing health care?  When the government denies care, they are simply following the rules.  That is our future system.

Reply #11 Top

'Well documented?' I don't think so. A wild ass guess based on worst-case estimates grounded in all sorts of false assumptions. A number only a demagogue can love.

As they say, 'Never let the facts stand in the way of a darn good opinion.'
Speaking of a wild ass guess based on false assumptions, where is *your* proof?

The article you reference has no links whatsoever to any supporting information that denies the Harvard study claims. The closest thing to "proof" is the following reference which is made without link or reference to any supporting documentation.

"Another study by Dr. Richard Kronick, a professor at the University of California, San Diego, and former senior adviser to President Clinton, crunched the numbers from 640,000 health surveys. He came up with a very small increased risk of death for the uninsured, with a very small margin of error."

So who is this Dr. Richard Kronick, where is his study and what ulterior motives may he have? Perhaps you can supply some actual data as opposed to base hyperbole?

In point of fact the Harvard study is not the only such study that has come up with similar results. An earlier study by the Institute of Medicine in 2002 came up with the results that "yielded estimates attributing to uninsurance an overall increase of 25 percent in mortality risk for working-age adults." While this is less than the Harvard study's 40% result it is in the same ballpark. And yes, I do realize that the Harvard study was based on a similar methodology as the IOM study but it used a completely different dataset. Also note that the IOM study itself resulted in the same results with two separate datasets.

Finally take a look at the following article, Commentary—Response to Richard Kronick, that addresses Dr. Kronick's concerns, complete with references to 9 published articles/studies related to the topic.

I know that doctors are not real scientists, but I would still expect a medical doctor to at least give pretense to the scientific method. You should be able to do far better than simply providing a link to an article that makes base assertions completely without reference or link to any supporting data.

You cannot simply wave your hand and invoke the magic words "Dr. Richard Kronick" and deny the Harvard study, the IOM study and all the other material referenced in the Response to Richard Kronick article. At best if I *assume* valid sources you possibly *may* have cast some minimal doubt on the 45,000 number, however I submit that I have far more scientific evidence on my side of the balance than you do on yours.

In any case although I have effectively done so my intent was not necessarily to *prove* the 45,000 number, my intent was to simply provide a requested source for the number that any fool and a 30 second google search could have found for themselves.

If you wish to actually refute these claims (as opposed to mere hand waving) then I suggest that "Lucy, you got some serious 'splaining to do" but so far your effort is extremely weak.

So we'd rather make our health care choices within the structure of a labyrinthine faceless bureaucracy that could give a shit whether we live or die and which saves money by not providing health care? When the government denies care, they are simply following the rules. That is our future system.
Great. As I've said before I'd far rather have an indifferent bureaucracy make healthcare decisions instead of a health insurance industry that has a financial incentive to want me to die quickly. But that's just me. But don't worry, the public option is only an *option*, you are perfectly free (and in 98% of cases are *required*) to keep your private insurance. So your insurance company will most likely continue to make money by hoping you die quickly it's just that with the new legislation they won't be able to arbitrarily rescind your coverage. You can thank the democrats for that much at least.

Reply #12 Top

Excuse me?  I'm supposed to prove 45,000 people a year are not killed by lack of insurance?  A claim isn't true until disproven (although in your world, apparently so).  The original article was a contrived guess, nothing more, which every UHC zealot has simply uncritically accepted as true.  When I come across the article I read taking it apart methodologically, if I do, and I decide you have any interest, I'll gladly post a link.  However, I'm not the one who claimed that number was 'well-documented.'

And that 'indifferent bureaucracy' has the same financial incentive, plus all the benefits of the MVD as a bonus.

Reply #13 Top

Excuse me?
Oh. Did you sneeze? If so then bless you.

I'm supposed to prove 45,000 people a year are not killed by lack of insurance? A claim isn't true until disproven (although in your world, apparently so). The original article was a contrived guess, nothing more, which every UHC zealot has simply uncritically accepted as true. When I come across the article I read taking it apart methodologically, if I do, and I decide you have any interest, I'll gladly post a link. However, I'm not the one who claimed that number was 'well-documented.'
The Harvard study was done by a number of credentialed professors with experience in the field and cannot be dismissed simply by speaking a few angry words. Not only have you *not* disproved the Harvard or IOM studies you've shown no evidence to support your claim or the claim of some random person of unknown credentials.

Your proof consists of seven sentances of vehement assertion. Must be a record for you. That's fine, I didn't expect you to do any real work.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled programming of boredom.

Reply #14 Top

So your proof consists of seven sentances of vehement assertion? Must be a record for you. That's fine, I didn't expect you to do any real work.

Make a claim, demand others disprove it, condescend.  Rinse, repeat.  That's the mumble way.  I knew you had no interest in the validity of the number.

Reply #15 Top

I would think that the right would be drooling at the chance to allow this democratic plan to fall on it's face and reap the political benefits in 2010 and 2012.

It's always interesting to see how people on the left organise party politics.

I don't think anybody on the (mainstream) right want the system to fail. That's not what the criticism is about. It's not about being right, it's about avoiding something bad.

Pointing out ten years later that more people died at a higher price is not "success".

 

Reply #16 Top

Excuse me?  I'm supposed to prove 45,000 people a year are not killed by lack of insurance?

You're meant to back up your assertion that it is "A wild ass guess based on worst-case estimates grounded in all sorts of false assumptions". Looking at the 'evidence' you gave though you've failed to do any such thing.

Reply #17 Top

You're meant to back up your assertion that it is "A wild ass guess based on worst-case estimates grounded in all sorts of false assumptions". Looking at the 'evidence' you gave though you've failed to do any such thing.

Exactly. Until you prove it wrong, the wild ass guess must be considered fact. Otherwise the argument for the new health insurance system falls apart.

Moron! It's like you are arguing with liberals for the first time.

 

 

Reply #18 Top

:*

Reply #19 Top

Make a claim, demand others disprove it, condescend. Rinse, repeat. That's the mumble way. I knew you had no interest in the validity of the number.
Actually the sequence was the following.

1) I provided a link to an article that rebutted the OP.

2) I responded to criticisms of the rebuttal by pointing out that the criticism of one point merely parroted the admission by the rebuttal that one claim was “technically correct” but left off the explanation of how the OP’s statement in this regard was misleading.

The second point of the criticism was that rebuttal did not provide any material to back up the claim that 45,000 die each year in the US for lack of health insurance. Basically you’d have to have been living in a cave for the last year to have never heard this figure before plus be unwilling to spend 30 seconds with google in an attempt to at least find where this figure came from but even so I provided a link to the Harvard study that was the source of this figure.

Also the criticism of the rebuttal failed to address two other major points brought out in the rebuttal.

3) Then Daiwa jumps in criticizing the Harvard study as “A wild ass guess” but at least did provide a link to an article from some right wing blog authored by someone known only as SoundOffSister that itself did pretty much the same as Daiwa did which is to spout off with no links to any supporting documentation. But this article did at least mention a study by Dr. Richard Kronick.

4) So I took the initiative to google Dr. Richard Kronick and found a measured and reasoned rebuttal (along with a significant bibliography) to Dr. Kronick’s criticisms and concerns and posted that link along with a link to an earlier study that also supported the Harvard study.

5) Then Daiwa responds with the statement that implies that I’m required to prove the 45,000 claim to *his* satisfaction whereas he’s not required to prove anything. Apparently a study by two Harvard professors is not credible.

The bottom line is that I have provided links to *credible* evidence to back up everything that I’ve said at each step of the conversation whereas Daiwa has provided one link that itself was nothing but bald faced assertion. Other than that Daiwa’s lone debating technique is “proof by vehement assertion.”

I will however admit one point he made which is that my replies tend to be liberally (pun intended) sprinkled with condescension. However in my defense that is merely my response to the fact that I pretty much know before hand that the response that I’ll get is the one exhibited by Daiwa. It’s hard not to be condescending when talking to an asshole.

Reply #20 Top

:inlove:

Apparently a study by two Harvard professors is not credible.

Harvard professors not credible?  I, too, am shocked.

Some people will swallow anything if it suits their prejudices.

Reply #21 Top

http://washingtontimes.com/weblogs/back-story/2009/sep/17/junk-science-expert-sounds-alarm-insurance-study/

Yet another linkless bald faced assertion. The only link to anything is to http://junkscience.com/ which is one of many "right wing think tanks with long histories of denying environmental problems at the behest of the corporations which fund them." This according to http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=JunkScience.

You're the one that will swallow anything that suits your prejudices.

Your best evidence to date is still Dr. Richard Kronick which I pointed out to you and to which you've still failed to provde a link nor have you bothered to even address my provided rebuttal, Commentary—Response to Richard Kronick.

You're only fooling yourself but I guess that's pretty easy to do. 

 

Reply #22 Top

Found the original critique.

Even the original IOM report acknowledges the limitations of their analysis, but fails to include one major caveat - association (which is all the study demonstrates) does not equal causation, and cavalierly concludes that the mortality differential is 'due to uninsurance.'  Venn diagrams can overlap without any causal relationship.

Here's a study showing that Medicaid patients had higher cardiac morbidity & mortality than privately insured patients.  Does this mean we should give everyone Medicaid?  That's what UHC proponents are proposing to do - require us all to enroll in Medicaid.

Reply #23 Top
Found the original critique.
Yeah I read that. Hardly definitive and with no citations. Since you appear unwilling to follow a link here's the rebuttal to Kronick.
 
 
Commentary—Response to Richard Kronick
Jack Hadley and Timothy Waidmann
Address correspondence to Jack Hadley, Ph.D., Principal Research Associate, The Urban Institute, 2100 M St., NW, Washington, DC 20037. Timothy Waidmann, Ph.D., Senior Research Associate, is with The Urban Institute, Washington, DC.
 
It is encouraging that the debate appears to be shifting from the question of whether having health insurance has any impact on health to the question of the magnitude of its positive effect on health. Moreover, a healthy dose of skepticism to peer-reviewed evidence is both appropriate and necessary for the research process to advance. Research findings should be tested against other evidence before they become the basis for making policy.
 
In that spirit, we welcome the debate about the strengths and weaknesses of the evidence we present and would like to address some of the issues and observations raised by Richard Kronick in an accompanying commentary. The main thrust of the commentary is that our estimate of the impact of health insurance on health is too large. In responding, we wish to raise the question of why earlier estimates may have been too small.
 
The commentary argues that earlier studies (Franks, Clancy, and Gold 1993; Sorlie et al. 1994) suggest a considerably smaller estimated impact of having health insurance on mortality. We believe that the difference between our study and the earlier work may be because of a combination of differences in the populations studied—our population is older and sicker—and differences in methods that caused downward bias in the earlier studies.
 
The populations for both of the earlier studies included adults as young as 25. Almost half of the sample in Franks, Clancy, and Gold (1993) was between 25 and 44 years old, and over 70 percent was under age 55. Our population was 55–61 at baseline and was followed to age 63 or 64. Consequently, our population has a higher prevalence of health conditions that are both life-threatening and amenable to successful treatment, especially when diagnosed early. Thus one would expect that lack of health insurance would have a bigger impact on mortality than in a younger and healthier population.
 
To illustrate this point, we turn to data from the 2000 to 2002 Medical Panel Expenditure Surveys to compare younger adults aged 25–54 years to the near-elderly, i.e., 55–64-year olds. Near-elderly respondents experienced much higher rates of diabetes (11.2 versus 3.3 percent), high blood pressure (40.4 versus 14.9 percent), stroke (3.5 versus 0.8 percent), heart conditions (10.6 versus 2.3 percent), arthritis (35.3 versus 12.5 percent), and cancer (5.3 versus 1.6 percent). They were also much more likely to rate their overall health status as poor (6.3 versus 2.6 percent). Other research (cf. Institute of Medicine 2002; Hadley 2003) has demonstrated that the people without insurance are much less likely to be screened for these conditions, are more likely to be diagnosed at a more advanced disease stage, receive less therapeutic care, and experience higher mortality rates.
 
It is also important to point out that in comparing the results of our analysis with the earlier studies, the adjusted hazard ratio of death for an uninsured person of 1.25 (from Franks, Clancy, and Gold 1993) is not the same metric as the ratio of mortality rates by baseline insurance status. In that study, 9.6 percent of the people who were insured at baseline died by the end of the observation period, compared with 18.4 percent of the people who were uninsured at baseline, a two-fold difference, not 25 percent as suggested by the commentary. In our sample 6.2 percent of those insured at baseline died by the end of the observation period (which was shorter than in the Franks, Clancy, and Gold 1993 study), compared with 10.8 percent of those uninsured at baseline—a difference that is less than twofold.
 
This last observation leads to an important methodological difference between our study and the earlier studies, neither of which adjusted for people gaining or losing health insurance. Thus, their results probably understate the mortality difference between a continuously insured population and a population that is uninsured over all or part of the observation period.
The second and probably more contentious methodological difference between our study and the earlier work is our use of instrumental variable (IV) analysis to adjust for the bias that may be caused by the effects of unobserved health on insurance coverage. For example, 12 percent of our near-elderly sample obtained Medicare or Medicaid coverage, which occurs primarily because of either disability or end-stage renal disease, after the initial baseline interview. Similarly, people in less than excellent health may be more likely to stay on the job to keep their health insurance coverage rather than retire early, while people who consider their health prospects to be very good may be more willing to risk going without health insurance. If sicker people are more likely to have coverage and healthier people more likely to go without, then the observed effect of health insurance on health will be biased toward zero because unobserved health influences both insurance coverage and health outcomes. It is also possible that sicker people will have more trouble obtaining insurance, which would bias the result in the other direction. Which effect is stronger is an empirical question and, in either case, it is important to try to control for this potential source of bias.
The goal of IV analysis is to replace the variation in insurance coverage because of unobserved health by variation caused by factors that are arguably independent of health through the use of the so-called instruments. While there are statistical tests that indicate whether the instruments satisfy the necessary assumptions, it still remains that these are not sufficient. Good instruments must also pass muster in terms of plausibility.
The commentary questions the plausibility of using involuntary job loss, foreign birth, and years in the U.S. if foreign born as instruments. While we cannot prove the validity of our underlying assumption, although these instruments do pass the statistical tests, we can offer the following observations. First, poor health is another and separate response option to the survey question about leaving one's job. Although poor health is a major reason given for leaving work, only 4.3 percent of the cases we classified as involuntary job losers also cited poor health as a factor. Second, the immigrants in our sample actually have better baseline health than U.S.-born respondents. Moreover, our first-stage model suggests that the negative effect of immigration on insurance coverage dissipates the longer an immigrant is in the U.S. This would not be the case if immigrants were in poor or declining health, which would make it difficult for them to obtain coverage.
Nevertheless, given the uneasiness that always seems to accompany an IV analysis, researchers should, to the extent possible, explore the sensitivity of their results to alternative combinations of instruments. We note that in our study the IV coefficient estimate of the health insurance variable does fluctuate with the combination of exogenous instruments used in the first-stage insurance equation, and that these alternative estimates bracket the value we report in Table 4 and use in the subsequent spending simulation.
We also note, however, that all of the IV estimates are larger in magnitude than the ordinary least squares (OLS) coefficient estimate. Moreover, our use of IV analysis is responsible for only 35 percent of the predicted reduction in mortality associated with complete insurance coverage. The observational analysis, which reflects the differences between continuous and intermittent or no coverage and between the poorer health of our population and those of earlier studies, accounts for the other 65 percent, i.e., the reduction in predicted mortality from 6.7 to 4.9 percent. While the search for better instruments is always desirable, we doubt that alternative instruments would have a dramatic effect on the insurance variable's final coefficient value.
Another possible source of upward bias in our analysis is the omission of income, which we excluded from the model on the grounds that it is endogenous with respect to health. We re-estimated our models including baseline household income and net worth as additional control variables in both the first-stage insurance and second-stage health models. The revised IV estimate of the insurance coefficient is 2.80 (p<.01), compared with the value of 2.67 without income and wealth in the models. Thus, it would appear that in a longitudinal sample baseline controls for education, health, race, and ethnicity adequately capture the effects of income and wealth on health.
The final methodological point we wish to make is to caution against judging the magnitude of the insurance effect from its coefficient in the first-stage linear model used to test the statistical properties of the instruments. That model treats both baseline and exit health status, which are categorical variables, as continuous variables because the statistical tests are only well defined for linear models. However, the linear model is inappropriate for making statements about marginal effects of baseline health status on final health status. Using the ordered logistic model to simulate the effect of being in excellent health at baseline with no chronic conditions compared with being in the worst possible health state with all of the chronic conditions shows that the predicted mortality rate increases from 0.7 to 56.6 percent—clearly much larger than the estimated impact of not having insurance.
With regard to policy implications, we agree with Kronick that the case for expanding health insurance coverage should not be based on the argument that it will pay for itself by reducing overall health spending. Other research (Hadley and Holahan 2003; Institute of Medicine 2003; Holahan, Bovbjerg, and Hadley 2004) clearly indicates that covering the uninsured will increase their health spending. (This research also suggests that the incremental resource cost of covering the uninsured is fairly modest, a 3–5 percent increase in total health spending.)
Our simulation makes a much more limited point, i.e., with a static technology and delivery structure, a healthier cohort of new Medicare beneficiaries should spend less on medical care than a sicker cohort in the short term, even though the healthier cohort is larger because of increased survival to age 65. Some believe that even if expanding health insurance reduces mortality, the number of people in poor health will increase and Medicare spending will increase. Our simulation suggests that this may not be an inevitable outcome.
We also agree that the primary case for expanding health insurance coverage is that it will improve health and that good health is highly valued. In spite of the difficulty of deriving precise estimates, studies by the Institute of Medicine (2003), Cutler (2004), and Nordhaus (2002) all suggest that Americans place a high value on good health and that this value probably exceeds the cost of covering the uninsured.
Kronick is also undoubtedly correct in asserting that the politics of health insurance expansion and the inevitable income transfers that would accompany major changes to our current system are the primary obstacles to covering the uninsured. However, even though one of us proposed the idea for a randomized trial to provide insurance for previously uninsured people in an earlier paper (Hadley 2003), we do not share Kronick's belief that more research will produce substantively different results for this population. Ours is not the first study to suggest that having health insurance improves the health of the near elderly. We believe that our analysis, along with the prior health and retirement survey (HRS) studies we cite, provide ample evidence that expanding insurance coverage among the near-elderly will result in a significant health improvement in this population. While it would be useful to know more about the dynamics of health insurance coverage and health, and to have studies of other near-elderly populations to pin down a more precise point estimate of the magnitude of the health insurance coefficient, whether it is somewhat smaller, or possibly somewhat larger than our estimate is a second-order issue.
Our policy recommendation is that Medicare coverage be available at age 55 for people to purchase like any other insurance on an actuarially sound, age-related basis, but with income-related subsidies to make coverage affordable for low-income people. The potential for improved health in this population is substantial, and we believe that the value of that health improvement would justify the subsidies that would be required. At this point, the primary goals for both research and policy should be to identify the financing and organizational reforms that will lead to a more cost-effective and quality-effective health care system, which will make insurance coverage for the uninsured affordable.
NOTES
1Sorlie et al. (1994) estimated adjusted hazard ratios of 0.8 (not significant) for black women, 1.2 for white men, and 1.5 for white women and black men.
2Franks, Clancy, and Gold (1993, p. 740) make this point in the comment on their findings.
3We also note that income was not statistically significant in Franks, Clancy, and Gold (1993).
REFERENCES
  • Cutler D. Your Money or Your Life. Oxford: Oxford University Press; 2004.
  • Franks P, Clancy CM, Gold MR. “Health Insurance and Mortality: Evidence from a National Cohort.” Journal of the American Medical Association. 1993;270((6)):737–41. [PubMed]
  • Hadley J. “Sicker and Poorer—The Consequences of Being Uninsured: A Review of the Research on the Relationship between Health Insurance, Medical Care Use, Health, Work, and Income.” Medical Care. 2003;60((2)):3S–75S. (Supplement to June 2003).
  • Hadley J, Holahan J. “Covering the Uninsured: How Much Would It Cost?” Health Affairs (Web Exclusive). 2003;(22):W3-250–65.
  • Holahan J, Bovbjerg R, Hadley J. Caring for the Uninsured in Massachusetts: What Does It Cost, Who Pays and What Would Full Coverage Add to Medical Spending. Boston: Blue Cross and Blue Shield Foundation of Massachusetts; 2004.
  • Institute of Medicine. Care without Coverage. Washington, DC: National Academy Press; 2002.
  • Institute of Medicine. Hidden Costs, Value Lost: Uninsurance in America. Washington, DC: National Academy Press; 2003.
  • Nordhaus W. “The Health of Nations: The Contribution of Improved Health to Living Standards.” In: Murphy K, Topel R, editors. The Economic Value of Medical Research. Chicago: University of Chicago Press; 2002.
  • Sorlie PD, Johnson NH, Backlund E, Bradham DD. “Mortality in the Uninsured Compared with That in Persons with Public and Private Health Insurance.” Archives of Internal Medicine. 1994;154:2409–16. [PubMed]

Reply #24 Top

Since you appear unwilling to follow a link

Another of your condescending assumptions.

Reply #25 Top

Quoting Leauki, reply 17


Moron!
 

I guess it was a bit moronic for me to expect someone on JU to actually back up one of their claims...