Bestial Wrath sucks early game but late game (i.e. past level 14/15) it becomes very tough and is probably the only ability you'll use a lot once artifacts hit the ground. An Ooze/BW could work very well late game.

But thats the problem. Games dont often get to that stage.

I do have a nice bestial wrath build but Im keeping it hidden until I do a bit more work with it.

Main thing to say is that if your using pure Ooze versus a spit beast, you will lose a lot early game. And only use BW in big fights or later on (Big fights because people often are too busy fighting or dont notice you activating it >>)

I do love this build but its hard to kill an Ice TB even with wand of speed.  Think you should sacrifice atributes for more slow?

I think under any condition hybrid is better than full ooze unless there is a sedna in the opponent team.

But he totally won against some good players dude. Any build you win against good players with is automatically the best.

 

Seriously though even against Sedna, Spit is still more powerful than stats or rank 2-3 of diseased claws. You can either just spit on the target that isn't the primary target or wait for her to heal before spitting, either works fine.

Ooze is a movespeed and attack speed build that also abuses sigils, hp, and larger priest heals.  Spit is more of a harassing/weakening ability that doesn't scale very well late game imo.  The hp stats and attack speed scale better late game, and the movespeed early is to provide superior leveling via capping flags. 

What's nice is you don't have to manage mana and will always be able to grasp, and will have a speed advantage to escape with inner beast, boots, and claws.  And this game is all about not making mistakes. You're not as strong as a spit/ooze early on.  But you can cap and creep faster, and you're definitely not a pushover.

Again if there is a Rook, reg, tb, queen, I agree spit/ooze is superior.  Vs other characters it can really go either way.  Have you tried straight ooze? It's quite strong.  There's really more to it as a playstyle than the missing dps numbers from spit, especially when huge sigil boosts and life leech from the improved attack speed is involved late game.

Putrid flow makes Spit viable into the endgame. I can kill creep waves with my spit. It's seriously amazing.

How so? It does 2150 damage if someone actually tries to stand their ground against you, that's far more than stats. Plus that's assuming you don't have a BotS, if you do you can use it off cooldown, doing 250 DPS 5 out of every 7 seconds.

I'd like to see the math behind stats doing more damage than that.

 

The reason why I mentioned the players that I beat is not to show that ooze is the best, but that it is undeniably viable. Whereas everyone's comments have been "you are missing out on early game DPS, your build isn't viable"

 

It's not that so much as spit does its damage over time. And by going spit you either sacrifice ooze or inner beast. Most people sacrifice inner beast. This means you don't get acclimation. Acclimation + ooze + HP stack + life drain + Move speed increase + attack speed increase + damage increase + sigil = makes you unkillable

 

Plus if someone tries to stand their ground against you that means that the other beast is in your face. If he's that close there's nothing stopping him from interrupting your next spit. Putting you on cooldown, recouping some HP from the first spit, while taking 40% less dmg from auto attack due to ooze and 40% less damage from acclimation.

So your attack speed is lowered by 40%, and the acclimation beast takes 40% less overall dmg from acclimation, plus sigils life steals etc. etc. etc.

If anyone is holding their ground, it's acclimation sigil ooze hp stacking beast

We're talking Putrid Flows. By that point any good hybrid has full Ooze, Spit, Inner Beast, and Acclimation, plus one rank of Diseased Claws. What you sacrifice is stats and ranks 2-3 of Diseased Claws.

Let him. I'll just potion in his face or if need be have a free ride home if he wants to do that, but that being said I find it highly unlikely that anyone is going to consistently interrupt a 0.3 second cast with the latency in this game, it's luck if they do on an ability like Spit which doesnt' need to be cast on every cooldown due to its DoT nature.

You won't have acclimation before me. with boots of speed off the start I'm capping more flags, faster, creeping more creeps with ooze faster. I'm just leveling and getting gold much quicker. Not to mention if you go spit, at some point during the game you will have to return to the crystal for mana, I don't have to return to the crystal, for anything, ever. Ally gives me a priest and im good to go all game. I never leave my lane. constant creeping / flag capping. I'll go buy items of course, but that happens 1-3x during the course of the game. Whereas after a big battle and yoru mana is drained you'll go back to the crystal, while I'm out capping flags and creeping, getting my hp back from ally priest over time.

 

If you potion in my face you're neglecting either sigils, TP's , or locks. You can potion in my face, then my allies take your portal at war rank 10 and you can't lock it. you lose

Or you can potion in my face, but you can't TP when you need to.

Or you can potion in my face, but can't carry sigil's in which case you lose as well

Acclimation implies that we reach at least lvl 15.  A hybrid beast does not need to sacrifice acclimation to get there.  Spit 5, ooze 4, grasp 1, inner beast/acclimation with one point left for post mortem or claws (probably). 

Yes, HP will be a bit lower by loosing out on HP from stats and BotF, but the damage gain from spit and flows is huge.  Also, let's not  forget the fact that spit is pretty incredible for pushing towers and that it gives UB something that he otherwise lacks-- a ranged attack.

Yes, a pure ooze build is viable, but my opinion is that for most maps it is not optimal.

First off, who cares? Acclimation doesn't affect UB vs. UB battles until artifacts hit the field.

Second I was talking about the build's structure at 15, not whether or not your assumption that you'll always be what 1-20 levels higher than everyone else is correct.

You're right, it doesn't effect ub vs ub battles. But your allies will care when im destroying them and farming them for gold, while my allies laugh at you as they heal, shield, mist there way out of your uber spit

Acclimation is available for a very small percentage of the game. Hybrid UB sacrifices 5 points in stats and a favor item slot. This is about 1450 hp. One spit at level 15 can knock off this advantage. Spit is also versatile, allowing me to kill buildings.

I've no doubt that your build is playable, I just don't think that it's better than a hybrid UB. (P.S, if a hybrid UB uses BotF, he's doing it wrong.) I might try giving it a go to see what I think.

I rarely have my spit interrupted.

Each level of stats gives +6 damage and increase to attack speed. inner beast increases attack speed. narmoths ring gives you 8% life steal. Sigil increases that 1450 by 50%. The ooze beast has indefinant grasp, as soon as it's off cooldown, you grasp again. mana is never an issue. Each grasp gives me more hp. At some point the spit guy will have to choose between 1 last spit, or1 last grasp. Unless you double stack helms, in which case i will have way more hp. That 1 slot where your vlemish goes is where my groffling warplate goes, which increases my armor and hp substantially, allowing me to take even less dmg from auto attack, and tank spit even longer.

no stats with vlemish and acclimation = 10% increase in attack speed

 

stats with groffling and acclimation = 18% increase in attack speed

675 hp

1200 armor

100 armor - stats

24 dps - stats

460 hp - stats

.5hp / second -stats

Makes sigil way more effective for the stats guy

makes narmoths ring way more effective for the stats guy

If the spit beast chooses blade of the serpent over blood, then he will have the 5th item slot, but sacrifices 800 hp = 1200 hp with sigil and health per second

The spit beast gets less from his life steal, does less dmg from auto attack, the negative effects of ooze hurt more

the striaght ooze guy gets more from his life steal, does more dmg, the negative effects of ooze hurt less, and I can always run away if need be. But you can't run away from a faster beast.

 

We can talk stats all day, but from experience, the magic HP number I see from spit beasts every game is 57-5800 hp. My hp is at 9k before sigil, 12k with sigil. Someone made a chart talking about armor a while back where every point in armor at a certain level helps your hp exponentially as well.

Well thanks for considering giving it a try!  I'm glad your argument is based on what you "think" rather than experience.  It's not like I exclusively play ooze I actually play both builds you haters.  Try it out, post the rep.  If you think it sucks, maybe we can help by giving some advice, because it does not.  It's a playstyle, and in 3 on 3 decisive battles mid-late game, an ooze beast with a sigil will "out-tank" a bots beast, or a spit beast with a helm.  Stop obsessing over small scale 1 v 1s.  If two armies go balls-out on the beast this ooze build has a much higher suvivability with increased speed and hp, and can effectively tank longer while the spit will have to retreat sooner.

reworked below

So then it becomes a matter of how long the fights last. Generally speaking I think it's quite likely that they'll last long enough for spit to mitigate a 1200 HP difference, especially considering the spit will land before both parties enter melee range.

Not really in an especially meaningful way though. Stats only give 36 weapon damage, 12% weapon speed, and 150 armor. So the real difference is 11 damage (the blade gives +25), 12% attack speed, and 150 armor. All of those things matter, but do they really equate to a 150 DPS (250 DPS late game) swing? I really doubt it.There's no way either beast is going to escape the other unless they start at very high health and have towers/partners nearby. Both have identical speed and the Ooze beast has only a 5% greater snare.

The argument I'm trying to make isn't so much that ooze is better than spit/ooze.  It's that spit/ooze isn't some kind of "one true build" and it's pointless to even try another build regardless of the matchup because it is inferior.  I disagree with that, I think straight ooze, when played right, can be very viable, and beat an opponent playing spit/ooze.  And it's been done.  There is a playstyle factor involved here.  It's not all about right clicking, and spamming spit and grasp until one beast kills the other and is proclaimed the ultimate beast build.

Not really, it's not saying it's one of a few viable options, the thread argues that ooze is the

OMGWTFBBQ BEASTTTTTTTTTT BUILD

Yeah because the mere mention of no spit makes everyone say OMGWTFBBQ

Endgame ooze beast will have ~2300 more hp with a sigil and 12% faster attack speed as well as grasp spam. 

If any ability procs acclimation (penitence, bite, slam, etc), which most do endgame, you're looking at another 40% hp on top of that ~2300.  Not to mention Ooze is reducing attack speed by 40% making every point of hp that much more valuable.

Factor in priests, and honestly spit's damage is hardly even noticeable.  It's a tickle.  Watch as opposing teams die in vain trying to kill this insanely powerful hp beast thats like chipping away at a brick wall.

I think we can all agree that hp is king in this game.  Acclimation is OP.  Sigils are OP.  Ooze is OP.  I would say spit is definitely good, but late game, all of those OP things fuse together in such a way that the Ooze beast really is an unstoppable behemoth.

But whatever 1 v 1 theorize all you want in a team game.  And of course don't try the build out first before commenting how crap it is.  That's would be ridiculous.

Depending on what you mean, that's not true. By default you have 124% attack speed at level 15, if you've got a mageslayer it's going to raise it even more, so in a UB vs. UB fight it'll be close to a true 12% increase, but in any ohter situation you're looking at a true increase of 6-8%.

I mean really it depends on the level and items we're talking about, but I just wanted to point out that default attack speed isn't 100%.

I've played it before. Ooze is not a new build, the only thing new is playground's over the top presentation of it. I appreciate that you edited your post to say "The argument I'm trying to make" instead of "The argument here," so I see that you do undertsand the tone of the OP has had a negative impact on the overall discussion here.

Ooze is fine. It's a more durable but lower DPS build than a hybrid, and some people prefer that, to each their own. If this thread had been worded differently there wouldn't be any debate at all, as there's been plenty of talk of ooze builds before.

However, when you resort to absurd things like "Factor in priests, and honestly spits slow damage is hardly even noticeable," you undermine the validity of your side of the debate. In a pure Ooze build clearly Ooze does a lot of damage. Max rank Ooze does 140 DPS, max rank Spit does 150, and with Purtrid Flows it does 250 for at least 5 out of every 7 seconds if you've picked up a BotS so you can afford to keep spamming it. Spit does a LOT of damage, period. It's more than the autoattack difference is going to amount to until very, very late game, and more than Ooze.

Even at level 20 with a Mageslayer UB with stats is only at 540 autoattack DPS. Assuming 40% mitigation, that's 324 DPS. With the same gear a non-stat UB does 470 mitigated DPS, or 282 DPS, a difference of only 42 DPS, hardly comparable to the 150-250 Spit does, and that's not even counting in the DPS gain from the Blade of the Serpent.

You think I'm underestimating spit, I think you're underestimating stacking ooze, stats, sigils, priests and acclimation.  Maybe we should setup some kind of "to the death" match.  Oak Ereb Spit Beast vs Oak Ereb Ooze Beast.  Endgame gear, focus the beasts, spam spells, see who drops first.

Of course this assumes equal level.  Typically an Ooze beast should have a level advantage due to more flags capped.