Darvin's AI Wish-List

 

Let's cut to the chase: we all know the artificial idiocy is pretty bad currently. Not to insult the developers, as I'm well aware of the incredible difficulty in creating an AI, but there are many areas where it could be improved. Even addressing a couple of these would be very nice and much appreciated by the community.  Entrenchment greatly reduced the difficulty of the AI, since it already had trouble beating a strong defensive formation and starbases often made it possible for players to create something the AI just didn't know how to break.  I'd like to see diplomacy restore some of the challenge to the AI, and hopefully make it less of a joke.

 

Repair Bays – Use 'Em
Over and over again I have stressed the importance of repair bays to players who are learning the game. They are relatively inexpensive, but are easily more influential than your other static defense options. Yet our good friend the artificial idiot won't use them. I occasionally see one or two, but they're few and far between and often later in the game. Not good enough.

Worse yet, capital ships that do retreat from battle often find themselves with nowhere to repair. This means that in those rare circumstances where the AI does successfully preserve their capitals, they end up in another battle five minutes later still sporting heavy damage.

The bottom line is that the repair bay should be a very high priority research item. It should always be researched within the first 10 minutes of the game and be deployed near any battlefield. Structures (particularly starbases) should be built nearby repair bays, and injured units should fall back to the nearest repair bays.

 

Know when to Retreat

Too often I see the AI take critical casualties in a battle when it could have retreated. This is particularly bad against starbases, which for some reason it's loath to retreat against (presumably because it's going to take some hull point damage on the jump... but why you'd prefer to be destroyed rather than take some damage and live to fight again I do not know). The AI needs to know when to fold and regroup.

Certainly there comes a point where the AI needs to be launching desperate and risky attacks, but there's a difference between suicide and desperation. A desperate attack is one where the AI is still capable of dealing some damage to the player, whereas a suicide attack is one where the AI has little hope of actually dealing lasting damage but stands to lose significant military assets.

 

Sensible Unit Priorities

Too often I see an AI will prioritize replacing light frigates or siege frigates when it's being attacked relentlessly by long range frigates. The AI needs to better prioritize its unit choices based on its present situation. There's nothing wrong with having light frigates, but if the enemy is massing long range frigates then this should be the lowest priority on its replace list.

This really also deals with the love of siege frigates. The developers have never addressed this, indicating to me it's intended to be an intentional “handicap” of the AI, however it really impacts the enjoyability of the game. I don't mind the AI producing some siege frigates, and as much as I find it stupid the suicide attacks are not the biggest problem. The problem is that replacing those siege frigates is a high priority for the AI, so in a major battle that will decide the outcome of a game, a siege frigate pops out of the nearest frigate factory when it should have been a combat unit.

 

Capital Ships – Preserve 'Em

While occasionally the AI will get capital ships out of the danger zone before they die, more often than not they will begin their retreat much too late if at all. Capital ships are huge targets and have plenty of opportunity to get out of the line of fire if they're taking too much damage. The AI needs to recognize when to fold its capital ships. This is not to say it should retreat its entire army, just the threatened capital ship (something it doesn't do, presumably because it's loath to sacrifice fleet cohesion).

Of course, retreating a capital ship is often superfluous if it just sits there in the next gravity well. It doesn't take a player long to realize he's more than capable of pursuing into the next gravity well. The capital ship needs to retreat to the nearest repair bays, or its escape may yet fail. If there aren't any nearby repair bays, then my first point clearly hasn't been addressed.

 

Capital Ships – Discriminating Selection

The AI currently picks its capital ships somewhat randomly. The result is usually that its capital ship choice mismatches its situation, and more sinisterly it often lacks a necessary capital ship for its dangerous situation. The AI needs to think about its needs and classify each capital ship according to its role and what abilities it offers to fulfill those needs.

So, if the AI is in heavy combat situation, the Antorak Marauder should be a low priority. Its abilities are not heavily applicable to the current situation. On the other hand, the presence of a level 6 Marza may demand a counter-ability, which should accordingly raise the Antorak's priority. The ability selected should be affected similarly. The right abilities for the right situation should be chosen.

That is, if there are two squads of fighters buzzing around, flak burst should be a low priority for the Kol. On the other hand, if hundreds of bombers are flying around, flak burst should have such a high priority that there is virtually a 100% chance the next capital ship will be a Kol and it will pick flak burst. The situation demands it, and if the AI doesn't react accordingly, it may a well surrender... which is another issue entirely.

 

Better Siege Capabilities

The AI's biggest problem currently is that it's really bad at killing starbases, or really any location that's well defended. At very least it needs to recognize when it shouldn't be getting within arm's reach of a starbase. Better yet, it needs to identify that the biggest threats are the repair bays that need to be taken out first. Constructors should be a high priority as well. If there are nearby enemy reinforcements that could severely tilt the tides of battle, removing PJI's from the field should be their first move. While better performance in combat in general would be a good thing, the siege is a place of particular weakness.

 

Know When to Bypass

With the right set of position, assets, and opportunity, it's entirely possible to create an impregnable defence. Perhaps a stronger fleet could kill it, or perhaps you'd have a fair shot if the enemy wasn't camping there with the right units. In any case, the AI's currently fleet clearly is insufficient to take down this defensive position. This might be a situation where the AI should bypass and start causing havoc on undefended inner worlds.

 

Better Balanced Expenditures

The AI is very bad about allocating its funds. It has a bad habit of buying a capital ship slot and then not using it for over fifteen minutes. Or worse yet it will research trade ports near the start of the game and therefore open itself to a rush. The worst offence, however, are those ridiculously heavily upgraded starbases. There's nothing wrong with starbases or trade ports or extra capital ships slots, but if you put your money in the wrong place at the wrong time, you're going to lose, and quickly.

What we need is an AI that has a better sense of balance between its fleet, economy, and defence. This needs to consider its short-term and long-term needs. A starbase is well and nice, but it needs to be placed well, especially if it's going to be heavily upgraded. This needs attention in particular, because if the AI invests a huge sum of cash in a starbase and compromises its fleet, there are many options I have to avoid the starbase and render that massive investment quite modest.

 

Surrender, Gracefully

The current surrender behaviour is a problem. Well known is the fact that it surrenders on a hair-trigger in the late game, often throwing in the towel as soon a player fleet arrives on its doorstep looking for that climatic battle. Less well known is that if you rush the AI, it will almost never surrender. In fact, it will often force you to bombard every last planet it controls, long after its fleet and all its factories have been annihilated.

The former problem (surrender on a hair-trigger) isn't due to the fact that the AI is giving up too early. Rather, it's due to the AI giving up too late. I've played several long games against the AI and subsequently reviewed the replays to get a better understanding of its surrender behaviour. I've also paid close attention to their empire size, fleet size, technology level, and economy (the big four). My findings are not surprising: the AI's defeat was a forgone conclusion long before they actually surrendered. Usually they were at a significant disadvantage over an hour before their eventual defeat, and their position had only gotten worse since.

In other words, the AI has been significantly disadvantaged for a prolonged period of time, and the straw that breaks the camel's back is usually a massive fleet knocking on its door. We shouldn't complain that the AI drops dead when we come knocking; rather we should complain that this silly situation occurred in the first place. What I propose, therefore, is a graduated surrender behaviour.

The AI should detect a growing disadvantage, rather than suddenly throwing in the towel because it runs into a fleet three times bigger than its own. The big ones to watch for are fleet size, economy, number of planets, and technology level (roughly in that order in terms of importance). As its disadvantage grows, it should become more desperate (desperate != suicidal, as I have already discussed). Depending on its situation, this may mean trying to prop up a competing economy even if its means sacrificing its own defences, or else an all-out attack before things fall apart for it. This desperation should increase over time, and culminate with the offer of a surrender.

Unfortunately, I know there will always be some players who play against low-difficulty levels and will be indignant when the AI (which has just failed for the twentieth time to break a defensive choke point) surrenders. Some players are just in it for blood, or else are still learning the ropes and often need to try out massive super-fleets against weaker opponents to get a sense of the relative strengths of units. As a result, a player should be able to reject a surrender offer.

The second issue with surrenders, which is less well known, is that the AI often hangs out too long in smaller early-game scenarios. I'm talking to the point at which it has a single dead asteroid and no units and it still won't surrender. The problem is clearly that the surrender logic doesn't scale well. For some reason my early-game fleet isn't “threatening” enough to convince the AI to surrender, even though it literally has no ability to fight back.

That's a long writeup, but it needed to be said. In a game like Sins, surrender has a very important role. We have many economic assets in this game, but our ability to fight back is usually compromised if only a small portion of these are taken out of the picture. There is no reason to drag out the game (potentially for hours) to clear this up. A desperate counter-attack is a reasonable precursor to surrender in these cases. If someone wants to beat the AI to a complete pulp, let them reject the surrender, but for the rest of us give us a “desperation mode” AI that goes through its death throes then surrenders without making us trudge through its territory long after it's lost the ability to suitably threaten us.

 

26,395 views 33 replies
Reply #1 Top

An issue that is overlooked, logical logistic and tactical structure placing for the AI.  A repair bay in the middle of nowhere is not going to much good for AI.

Reply #2 Top

 

I think the AI for this game is actually pretty decent.  It's just that after you've spent time playing against human competition, which I know you have, it doesn't seem very good.  I find the AI to be annoying and not challenging.  When someone drops the AI is smart enough to not want to fight me and instead runs away and sends hordes of seige frigates everywhere making me chase it down and put up PJIs and hanger bays.  It's not challenging, however, just annoying and a little bothersome.

Reply #3 Top

I think the AI for this game is actually pretty decent

There are essentially three major problems with the AI that makes it no challenge and even unfun currently:

  1. Doesn't know how to kill a starbase; once I have a suitably powerful choke point up, it's impregnable and the AI is never going to beat it.  It will never bypass it, either.  This sucks all the challenge out of the game.
  2. Doesn't know how to counter bomber swarms or missile barrage; you need capital ships to do this, but the AI picks its capital ships and abilities randomly, so it almost never has the right ones on the field.
  3. Spends a massive amount of money on poorly-placed starbases.  This ensures its long-term defeat, but in the same breath forces the player to wait a long time to build up the necessary types of units to crack such a powerful fortress.

It's not challenging, however, just annoying and a little bothersome.

Precisely...

Oh, and by the way, try countering those siege frigates with scouts.  Scouts are really inexpensive and great at killing SF.

 

An issue that is overlooked, logical logistic and tactical structure placing for the AI.  A repair bay in the middle of nowhere is not going to much good for AI.

I think I touched on that briefly in my "repair bays" section, but yes you are correct.  It needs to build its structures somewhat more intelligently.  In any case, repair bays (even placed randomly) would still be better than the turrets we see now that get killed by LRF without ever getting to fire a shot.

Reply #4 Top

I'd like to tack on to the structure placement topic a special emphasis on AI placement of starbases...invariably they are out in the middle of nowhere in a gravwell, basically sitting ducks with no supporting defenses and usually only combat upgrades. An Advent AI that doesnt research and implement Meteor Storm and Mass Disorientation (or whatever the exact wording for those two is) isn't doing its job right. An effective combat-oriented Advent SB relies on those two abilities to knock out large, dangerous fleets yet I have never once seen an AI use them.

Reply #5 Top

Oh, one other thing. I kinda think the AI needs to be able to deal with Capital ship spam more effectively. Right now (as a friend of mine proves time and time again) it is possible to soundly defeat AI players with solely capital ships, only building cruisers or frigates when Cap ships are maxed out. I'm not sure what steps should be taken in this regard but even large fleets fall prey to a significant number of leveled Capital ships. Maybe that's the way it's supposed to be but I think the AI should be better able to combat Cap spam.

Reply #6 Top

I'm not sure what steps should be taken in this regard but even large fleets fall prey to a significant number of leveled Capital ships

The problem here is more that the AI is picking the wrong unit types.  To counter capital ship spam, you need LRF spam, something the AI refuses to do.  Its low LRF count means that it lacks the ability to significantly threaten capital ships.  Sometimes it has enough bombers, but if you have enough fighters and the right anti-strike craft abilities (which you will if you're cap ship spamming) then that won't work.

Reply #7 Top

Excellent post. +karma. I fully support ALL of these changes. Darvin, you seem to have an excellent grasp of the current situation with the AI. Hopefully the devs consider all of these changes. I would happily pay $30 for an upgrade that simply implemented this list of changes.

 

As far as priorities of fixing these problems, issues with the AI and starbases, as well as the AI's economic decisions (including replacing siege frigates), are two of the biggest.

Reply #8 Top

Agreed, though I'm afraid if they implemented all these changes competently, we'd have to add a very easy AI for the rookies. And it might destroy the online community because the AI would start to be challanging enough for all but the best players to be content with it. :P

Reply #9 Top

Quoting GoaFan77, reply 8
Agreed, though I'm afraid if they implemented all these changes competently, we'd have to add a very easy AI for the rookies. And it might destroy the online community because the AI would start to be challanging enough for all but the best players to be content with it.

I doubt that that will be possilbe during the lifespan of this game.  Perhaps the AI can be tweaked a bit, but it's just never going to be able to compare to what a human can do.  The strategic considerations that you need to make in order to play the game well are just beyond the ability of an AI, at least any readily available gaming AI.  There are just so many variables to deal with and so much abstract thought and analysis involved that it's difficult to conceive of being able to create a working algorithym for it, at least not without putting large amounts of time and money into it.

If I could find the challenge and competition and teamwork that is available online in an offline single player game then I suppose I'd play it in single player as a matter of convenience, but as things stand now, the Sins AI is light years away from approaching anything like that.

Thus, if you want a better opponent, play it online against real people; there just isn't any substitute for real human opponents now nor in the conceivable lifespan of this game and that goes for Sins-2 as well.  If you have mastered the AI and it is no longer a challenge or you are becoming bored and feel like you are "going through the motions" with every game, then grit your teeth, log onto ICO, and preapre to suffer the company of other people.  (You will start out as a noob, btw, regardless of how much you've played against the AI; yes, it's that bad compared to human opponents.)

Reply #10 Top

A bit about siege fregates : experienced players realizes their raids are a waste and will not use their full fleet to destroy them, just a hangar bay or scouts BUT new inexperienced players thinks more about protecting the stuff they have than pressuring an opponent they know little about so they will waste time and money overprotecting their worlds. What i mean is that siege fregates raids are far more efficient against a newcomer than against someone more experienced and that, in a way, they makes sense.

For all your other ideas, i completely agree. Particulary about the sieging and the repair bay. Repair bay can really change a battle. Just yesterday, i fought a battle against two IA caps, 3 LRM and 6 LF (my fleet was one mothership, two illums, 5 LF). I colonized the planets and immediatly ordered to build a repair bay next to my cap. No losses for me whereas he lost his LRMs, half of its LF and one cap.

 

Finally, an easy and needed improvement for IA caps : MAKE THEM AUTOSPAM ULTIMATE ABILITIES ! The Distant star mods do it and it's great ! (Mssile barrage autocast rules)

Reply #11 Top

doubt that that will be possilbe during the lifespan of this game.  Perhaps the AI can be tweaked a bit, but it's just never going to be able to compare to what a human can do.

Of course for us this is a non-issue.  Any intelligence-based improvement to the AI isn't going to make it a serious contendor in a 1v1 against an experienced player (though it may make it a realistic threat that could distract you).  The real question is inexperienced players.  Even those who just barely make the cut for a "skilled" game are completely amazing by the standards of an average gamer.

BUT new inexperienced players thinks more about protecting the stuff they have than pressuring an opponent they know little about so they will waste time and money overprotecting their worlds.

I'm aware of this, and have commented on it before.  The big issue here is that beginners are still learning the ropes and don't really need to be challenged.  The people who need a challenge are those who have learned the game and probably won't be swayed by a simple unsupported SF raid. 

Finally, an easy and needed improvement for IA caps : MAKE THEM AUTOSPAM ULTIMATE ABILITIES ! The Distant star mods do it and it's great ! (Mssile barrage autocast rules)

In general using all abilities more intelligently would be nice.

Reply #12 Top

Quoting DirtySanchezz, reply 9

I doubt that that will be possilbe during the lifespan of this game.  Perhaps the AI can be tweaked a bit, but it's just never going to be able to compare to what a human can do.  The strategic considerations that you need to make in order to play the game well are just beyond the ability of an AI, at least any readily available gaming AI.  There are just so many variables to deal with and so much abstract thought and analysis involved that it's difficult to conceive of being able to create a working algorithym for it, at least not without putting large amounts of time and money into it.

If I could find the challenge and competition and teamwork that is available online in an offline single player game then I suppose I'd play it in single player as a matter of convenience, but as things stand now, the Sins AI is light years away from approaching anything like that.

Thus, if you want a better opponent, play it online against real people; there just isn't any substitute for real human opponents now nor in the conceivable lifespan of this game and that goes for Sins-2 as well.  If you have mastered the AI and it is no longer a challenge or you are becoming bored and feel like you are "going through the motions" with every game, then grit your teeth, log onto ICO, and preapre to suffer the company of other people.  (You will start out as a noob, btw, regardless of how much you've played against the AI; yes, it's that bad compared to human opponents.)

 

I know, that last part was just a joke. I completely agree that humans with some experience will kill the AI easily. :thumbsup:

Reply #13 Top

There are essentially three major problems with the AI that makes it no challenge and even unfun currently:

Doesn't know how to kill a starbase; once I have a suitably powerful choke point up, it's impregnable and the AI is never going to beat it. It will never bypass it, either. This sucks all the challenge out of the game.

Doesn't know how to counter bomber swarms or missile barrage; you need capital ships to do this, but the AI picks its capital ships and abilities randomly, so it almost never has the right ones on the field.

Spends a massive amount of money on poorly-placed starbases. This ensures its long-term defeat, but in the same breath forces the player to wait a long time to build up the necessary types of units to crack such a powerful fortress.

 

I have to totally agree. I love entrenchment, but since it has come out it has destroyed the game play with the AI for the above reasons. I would like to see the AI 1) not make another SB until it has leveled up the one it has built by at least 50%. If the SB is attacked level it up some more. 2)If it wants to attack a maxed out SB bring in at least 40 bombers.

Reply #14 Top

The idea is to get the AI to be a Bootcamp of sorts for rookies, so that they build up a competent strategy and inbattle tactics so that once they do overcome a challenging AI they are driven to MP. A more challenging AI wont destroy MP if anything itll jump start it. As people who move from SP to MP wont be overwhelmed with the significant changes that you encounter once you play online. The AI needs to bring a player up to speed and prepare them for playing against a real person, not replace them. The AI will never surpass MP play.

Reply #15 Top

Quoting Allegiance86, reply 14
The idea is to get the AI to be a Bootcamp of sorts for rookies, so that they build up a competent strategy and inbattle tactics so that once they do overcome a challenging AI they are driven to MP. A more challenging AI wont destroy MP if anything itll jump start it. As people who move from SP to MP wont be overwhelmed with the significant changes that you encounter once you play online. The AI needs to bring a player up to speed and prepare them for playing against a real person, not replace them. The AI will never surpass MP play.

*sigh* I hate necro'ing.

But I feel like I have to do this because of one absolutely fatal flaw in this statement.

Whether or not the AI surpasses MP is irrelevant. It's also pretty much a given that it won't, but that is also pretty irrelevant. What IS relevant is making the AI more challenging for those people who prefer to play SP because they either have more fun or maybe they like to roleplay a little while playing Sins (I admit I like to RP a little bit in Sins).

I mean, I have very little motivation to play online MP in, well, any, game. The few I do I moderately enjoyed it; but overall I don't like playing online MP games. There are some obvious exceptions (I'd love to be able to play EVE Online a LOT), but for the most part, I just don't enjoy playing online multiplayer games.

In case of any confusion, it's not that I don't enjoy playing games of a primarily online MP bent, because as long as there's good SP (or there's something that can give you good SP, like an awesome SP mod), I'll play it. Dawn of War 2, a heavily MP oriented RTS, is on my wishlist of games (in fact I only need tax money for it ATM); but I'm getting it because I love the Warhammer 40,000 universe, DoW2 looks awesome, and I'd love to try and mod in a custom campaign.

 

"I don't grin like a moron, I grin like a sociopath."

Reply #16 Top

well, I am planning an AI training school next week, All AI are welcome :)

Reply #17 Top

Quoting BlackHawk141, reply 16
well, I am planning an AI training school next week, All AI are welcome

I'll be sure to sign some of my AIs up!

 

"I don't grin like a moron, I grin like a sociopath."

Reply #18 Top

Thanks. Good suggestions. I hope the devs are paying attention!

Reply #19 Top

Indeed some very good suggestins in here. Is the AI open for modding like in Civ4, or is the AI hard coded? I suppose it is hard coded since otherwise it would have been modded already but I thought I'd just ask...

I would be one happy player if they would change the AI in the ways suggested in here.

Reply #20 Top

You prolly should not have bumped this thead and created a new thread... the AI as improved significantly from when this thread was posted... and while some of the topics are still outstanding, some are actually addressed.

 

Reply #21 Top

While the wishlistin the OP would be nice, but I can't help but think many of its points are either incredibly hard to program or just completely impossible right now.  Easiest example here is probably programming AI to look at the long term needs?  Maybe when we are able to one day program an AI that can think for itself...  Although some of them might be easy to change behavior wise.  Things like building repair bays, and then have the AIs congregate its units and starbases around said repair bays instead of congregate at the starbase like now would probably solve that problem(somewhat).

But all in all, the suggestions would be very nice if they could implimented.  Then the AI will do way better at planning than some of us! *cough*

 

now my offtopic stuff...  I want to know what's the logic that forces the AI to build a fleet of 30..40... or sometimes 50 of the scouts mid-late games?  I'll run into this at least once every game or 2.  The AI will build a big ole fleet of scouts... and they'd just idle in grav wells.  Their whole purpose seem to just be retreating whenever an enemy fleet jump into the grav well.  This ties up their precious fleet points that could be put to better use! :annoyed:  

Reply #22 Top

Quoting Pbhead, reply 20
You prolly should not have bumped this thead and created a new thread... the AI as improved significantly from when this thread was posted... and while some of the topics are still outstanding, some are actually addressed.

How is it improved?  What does it do differently (from a strategic standpoint) that it didn't do before?  It seems like the AI is a little bit better now when people drop from games, but I'm under the impression that they've just programmed the game so that a higher level (better eco-buff) AI takes over.

Minibeefcake, if you desire to play with real opponents that have a strategy (as opposed to the AI's lack thereof), I hope you'll consider logging onto Ironclad Online so that you can try it against real human opponents.  You are cordially invited to take try the game at the next level.  If you do that, I think you'll quickly discover that the game is much more challenging and that humans don't do silly things like the AI does.

 

 

 

Reply #23 Top

How is it improved? What does it do differently (from a strategic standpoint) that it didn't do before?

 

It actually spends money. It actually researches like a fiend. Its a bit smarter on what it builds. Its fleets are a more balanced. It actually buys and upgrades its Captial Ships. It will use lvl 6 abilities(though usually at lvl 7 or 8). It upgrades SB better and not just plop them down everywhere without upgrades.

 

Sure someone of your caliber wont notice the changes to much b/c the AI is easy to you no matter the level. But if you go to the Entrechment AI and then go back to the Diplomacy AI, its almost a new AI IMHO.

Reply #24 Top

but I can't help but think many of its points are either incredibly hard to program or just completely impossible right now.


It was an idealized list.  I happen to be a programmer myself and I'm well aware of the difficulties in creating a sophisticated AI.  It was never my intention to ask for human-like intelligence, only that at least some effort was made to address these issues.  The AI has indeed been improved, but I still think most of my points remain valid.

Particularly the AI's ability to balance its expenditures and manage an offensive against an entrenched position need help.  Once I get a sufficiently powerful starbase operational, I pretty much feel invulnerable and only a TEC AI with an insane resource cheat has any hope of even scratching the installation.

Reply #25 Top

Thanks for the invite, Dirtysanchezz.  I've played a few games on Ironclad with my friend haha.  Mostly what's called here the comp stomp because well.. neither of us are really any good at the game :blush:   We'd still get our asses kicked by unfair AI sometimes :rofl:    I know quite a few posters here can play 1v3-4+ against the hardest AI difficulty...  I want to see some replays!  I wouldn't mind some pointers lol!

 

so yeah... right now AIs with all its faults... is playing better than me haha.  Although that's not to say there's no room for improvements!