Fighting Without Flag Advantage

It is a common mistake to think that it is more important to fight the opponent than to control the map.  If all three opponents are in one lane, you should be able to hold them off with only 2 of your team mates, while you control both other two flags, and your team will gain more experience and gold at the same time. Matching 3 with 3 is only pertinent if A) You think it will get you some kills, the three are pushing a mission critical location, such as  a portal, or late game valor flag (Or citadel). C) You play on Crucible, so what the heck else are you going to do?

If you can keep 2 enemy players locked in their gold flag, you will win. Period. If they are in that lane, they are out of the creep wave. They are getting no gold, no expierence, while the your team continues to do so. Locking a player in there as early as level 7 can get you about a 2 or 3 level advantage on top of the massive warscore lead.

 ill usually do one strategic move then head over.  i.e. if all 3 are goin for your gold flag... cap their gold flag then teleport over.  This will either a.) draw them away so it's not all 3 goin for that flag now or b.) provide you with a nice advantage while you then procede to duke it out.  Just make sure your team is fighting them near the towers.

Fighting without the flag advantage is differing from map to map like in cataract flag score is the best thing ever...but if you fight on Exile flags aren't that great to have. My usual strategy on Exile is to let them have the flags if they fight to hard for them because EVERY team i go against buys creeps (lol) I guess its instinct from coming from the cataract Portal cap wars but well lets just say Flag advantage is not everything.

I'm not a pro player, but your reasoning seems to make sense.  If the opponents are pushing 3v2 with me on the other side of the map, i'd start pushing on my end myself because (1) there's no one to oppose me and (2) it might actually get the opponents' attention and they'll tp in to counter me.  I'd keep an eye on the confrontation though, and if my presence is needed i'd teleport in (usually if my teammates are really not doing well or if there's a good gank opportunity). 

I was talking about cataract.

the problem here is that in any realistic situation your team will not be able to hold the enemy 2v3, unless they got a tower or two helping them, but even then it could be nearly impossible

so they do need your help to keep your gold flag and the portal behind it or you will lose your gold flag and your portal

on the other hand if you do go there you keep your gold flag and portal, maybe get a kill, but you also get a massive warscore disadvantage if you don't manage to push them back rapidly
this is especially hard if the other team has generals or a sedna, increasing their staying power by far

basically you're in a lose / lose situation, you either lose warscore or you lose your gold flag + portal

the only solution I see is to lock em both and push another side, or if possible keep em busy 2v3 while your 3rd guy recaps the flags or gets their portal

I see ppl doing this all the time, they focus so much on defending and just ignore the rest of the map

I always tell my team to quit defending and start attacking, when they listen we usually win the game, when they don't listen we lose =(

but I guess when the other team manages to push you into this kind of defensive possition they're probably just playing better than you and you wouldn't win anyway

Not everybody loves cataract and plays it everygame you know if its about cataract try making it a bit clearer or some people will misunderstand.

kinda forgot about that since I only play Cataract really

thx for flaming that out though

it's pretty safe to assume it's always Cataract unless otherwise specified... esp if it is 3v3.

I am certainly not a pro, but I recently played in a game with an Erebus (ooshawn) who left all base defense, and the health flag to my partner and I.  He did a marvelous job with the mana flag, being all by himself except for creeps.  He even knocked down 1 tower, in front of the manna flag.  We repeatedly asked him to help us as they pushed the other side 3v2.  He responded he had '0' deaths, like that was the holy grail.  Of course it's hard to get killed by creep waves.  After the umpteenth polite request to help us or push somewhere, he told us if we asked again, he'd afk at the crystal.  We asked again, he parked till the game was over.  Taught us a lesson !!  (I don't remember who my exasperated partner was, but I'll never forget ooshawn.)

We might not have won the game in any case.  The other team was pretty solid in exploiting our lack of cohesion.  But I don't think you can let the other team destroy your defenses without ripping up theirs.  And locking gold and portal, trying to port out or run out, then port back to re-lock (where there might be 3 waiting for the 2 coming back) won't work for long if you can't get creeps or levels or gold. And you will have no towers on that side of the map left.

If the 3rd player is out tearing up the enemy defenses, and threatening portals, he'll draw at least 1 of the opponents off of the other 2.  

If he's flitting from middle flag to middle flag, and farming creeps, and not dying,,,,,,he'll look like a hero in the LOSING stats.  Most creeps, most damage, probably most favor points.  And he'll have done HIS job.

I'm not saying Yeodan did anything wrong in his game.  I wasn't there, didn't see it.  He talks about pushing towers and portals, and that should have taken some of the pressure off the home crowd.  Seems like right now, the good teams grab flags separately, and converge quicker when a fight starts.  It's almost impossible to get a 1v1 fight against the better teams.  I liked the Sparky's answer: push but keep an eye on the fight to see if he needs to port back to help.

It depends on whether your 2 can hold off the other 3, with towers, but not dying.

When the two players tie up the ENTIRE other team, whilst also fighting under the towers, you go tear shit up. Then when they can't hold out anymore, and leave for the crystal, they lock the flags.

Normally, the two players will focus on at least one of the enemy, forcing them back.

The problem is, don't worry about taking down the towers. As soon as you have no direct opposition, steal the portals and/or the gold. It should normally only take about 10 seconds of so from when it happens, especially undefended. Then potentially you can tp back to the gold, and chase a weakened enemy DG, or run right through the middle and take the other flag.

 Of course, this assumes your team has at least a lock, and you have a tp scroll and a lock.

It's being using defense for offense.

I've done this once or twice with erebus and I think it might work. my 2 teamates were fighting 2v3 near our towers and I was on the other side of the map. I just went to get their portal ignoring the towers. Of course that scared them and 1 of them TP to save their portal. Of course capturing the portal was not my intention. as soon as he came to me I just bat swarmed out and TP to my teamates, and it became 3v2 to our favor and pushed them easily, while the other enemy couldnt come help his friend cuz hi TP was on cooldown

Well i think in catarac there is only a fighting wise if you allready control all the flags or you can get another flag or a tower down after that. If you get the kill it is a nice boost although. The best in catarac is to controll all the flags then it will be a win mainly.

So concentrate on getting flags and towers, and there will be time or chances to kill demigods while they want to get their flags back.

Everything depends on what part of the game?

Early game

It's stupid to be 3 DG on the same lane. Two opposite DG will easily defend their tower, while the third one will cap the two other flag and get 100% xp/gold from opposite creep waves. Moreover, you get 33% xp/gold from creep waves while the 2 "defending tower"'s DG get 50%.

If your 2 team mates can't hold a tower, there's a serious problem about their skill or their DG. You are right to stay on your lane, Yeodan, capping and farming. Spending lots of gold ealry game in TP is not worth it.

You should only try to have AT LEAST the control of 2 flags (3 would be better of course) while defending your towers and farming. You must only attack ennemy tower if there are no ennemy DG around.

Middle game / Late game

You have to try to control lanes as much as possible and when you cannot, you have to lock the flags. It will deny ennemies the ability to push, because if they do, they can be teleganked (never ever go further an ennemy's locked flag). At that point of the game, you MUST have TP, and fighting 2v3 should never happens. That's why all good players always have TPs and Locks.

Trying to cap portal without destroying the two towers before is extremely dangerous. Erebus and Oak are the only one who can try such a thing, thanks to Batswarm & Shield/TP. All others DG will get screwed. Taking time to destroy towers is far more efficient, because if ennemies realize too late you're taking their flags, they can't TP anymore.

When you can hold your lane, and you feel confident go for destroying these two portal towers. Little by little. If they TP, go back, do something else: you made him (or them) used 250 gold and not being able to TP for 30 long seconds. Eventually, you will destroy those towers.

One exception thought, in some very balanced games, you won't be able to destroy these towers. Sometimes, when you feel all  ennemies are very busy (3v2 ganking your partners for instance), you can try to ninja cap trough towers. It remains dangerous, you can get killed. But if they don't pay enough attention, you can get one portal and turn the tide of battle.

another option, buy tower upgrades for firepower early. It's natural we get tower health, but tower damageII I find gives a nasty sting and will give you a better defense when 2v3 near your towers.

I love to shoot a fireball while near enemy tower as TB. It's especially funny when you've got 850 damage fireball and use it AFTER oak has stunned/interrupt, but aim it AT THE TOWER, then laugh while oak wastes a shield because he thinks you aim at him.... Near enemy towers I use rain of ice ONLY if it will also hit the tower, and shoot fireballs at the tower.... If you're smart enough you can deal quite a lot of damage to both tower AND enemy DG and grow fat on minions before going back for a shop.

Often I notice enemies run 2 to my side after the first skirmish of this kind....

In know which game this is about Yeodan.

In theory I agree that you have to be able to defend and capping flags at the same time. If you only defend you'll probably get outrun in warscore, level and money. However you can't just leave your defences wide open since then the enemy can do even more harm to your base.

For example, one team have been pushed back to their citadel and have destroyed some towers etc. The other team is, well basically fighting for their very virutal lives. They need to get flags from the enemy at the same time as they need to defend their towers and portals.

When facing a good team this is the problem: If 1 of 3 defenders go out and try starting capping flags most likely the enemy will tp in and either kill that Demigod or at least get him away.

If more than one defender go out to cap flags the enemy might destroy and capture a portal instead, which isn't very good either since in that disadvantage the defending team already is in; one less portal will probably ensure a loss.

You can of course try to capture a enemy portal but there is a high risk of the enemy tping in behind you, especially if you haven't destroyed the towers. Some people think it is ok to die if you succede to capture a portal and lock it. I don't think it is unless it will make you win after you captured it (or it will lead to you winning very soon). If not it's just an easy kill.

You'll simply need to push and defend at the same time with the help of tp's. If you only push alone the defence back "home" will be very weak.

Thats true, but if that 1 defenders has an escape plan (batsawrm, shield, cloak of night) he can espace the enemy DG that TP to him and making it a litter easier for his teammate to defend the tower/portal.

Dying for capturing a portal is really not a problem around WS 8, I would encourage it. Doing the same WS 4 is, of course, stupid.

It might. But consider this. The enemy have your portal locked and can tp to the portal you are trying to capture and get back in time to relock it. Then it doesn't help.

I agree. If you have high warscore (AND catapults etc) it can be viable. If you have lower warscore than that and the enemy has higher it is not worth it.

that's why you MUST lock the portal once you cap it and get out again

tele back in when the lock is about to go off, put a new lock on die / get out, repeat = win

It does not mean a win if the enemy keep one of your portals as well.

If you cap one of their portals and they hold one of your teams portals and you die while capping theirs, they will have the advandtage.

but they'll have a bigger advantage if you don't cap their portal but don't die either

Well, it all depends. If it late game with giants and you are caping their portal. Yes let them die and cap that portal no matter what. The problem here lies on both sides, it is important to have battles 3w3 not 3w2 but this should be done at the right time. lets make scenerio. your 2 mates are holding hp flag and 3 opponet is pushing them. at this point while caping your one eye should be in that fight, if there is  a chance to port in and get a kill or save a friend do it right away. because alte game kills are more important then flags. you get higher cold and the enemy has a longer wait time.Also in game you should give roles to people to create strategy depending on Dg set up. Rook can control a lane or farm around an important flag.Oak can be the flag hunter, or a speed tb or erebus. Ub has to engage, ub is not the dg to run around flags for example. Regelus is the same, he should push along creep or engage. he can go cap the important flags because of lack of escape mechanism. There are really many variations, so it is really hard to say WS is more important than kills or the otherway around. Depends on your dgs as well and the difference of WS. they are wining by WS but you have oak, ice tb and ub, you can hold giants quite a while with adefensive play and keeping one flag in the middle. you can eventually get your WS back up again.On the other hand your team is sedna,erebus and reg. this will be much ahrder to hold against giants since your only aoe is reg and he is quite fragile. In the first example you got less fragile character and all of them has aoe against creeps. The team team should adjust their build according to game as well. Ub can get post mortem to hold creeps. If oak is not using divine justice, he can switch if the opponent is pushing in with troops. Lately i have been discovering intresting strats. used to think Ub+ere+rook is the best combo in cataract but now i started to think there are many more options.