DalzK

Join Date 09/2008

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Lying Politicians

Bastards!

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I just watched a movie (you could call it a documentary) called The Ministry of Truth. To sum it up: a guy basically goes around interviewing MP's - they all agree they have an obligation to be honest and truthful - and when the interviewer pulls out a bill that would make it illegal for politicians to lie, they throw it back stating its ridiculous (Despite the fact there is a law in place that stops advertisers/companies etc. from lying).

Here's the bill (its been updated a bit) they are pushing forward:
http://www.ministry-of-truth.net/index.html

What do you guys think about the bill? Is it a bit ridiculous to have a bill like this floating around - or is this true democracy. I think MP's these day are all liars. The sterotypical MP is a bloodsucking **** - thats not a good image for the people who run our lives. This bill would give them the image of honest self-rightous guys.

Thoughts?

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Since this appears to be something happening in the UK, I would be remiss to make a judgment, as someone looking in from the outside. I'll just say this: IMO no law, decree, or bill will prevent someone that believes they have a good reason for lying from doing so. You can make the consequences for lying painful if caught, but who lies thinking their lie will be discovered?

IMO this is just a gimmick. A clever attempt to gain some publicity. You just can't control the human mind with a law.

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You can make the consequences for lying painful if caught, but who lies thinking their lie will be discovered?

Thats a pretty poor arguement. A lot of MP's lie and it is quite obvious. Often nothing is done about it, or they sometimes forced to resign (a large, large majority returning to power after a year or two). This bill would mean that MP's would think twice before lying. If there is a law against lying people are simply less likely to do it. Just like there is a law against murdering - it firstly stops many people from actually murdering in the first place, and second of all, although they are not caught everytime, they still are occasionaly - which imo, makes it worth it. No one really murders though knowing they will get caught (few exceptions) - most of the time it is covered up (or attempted to at least).

IMO this is just a gimmick. A clever attempt to gain some publicity.

Say as you wish - but i'am guessing you havent watched [URL="http://ministry-of-truth.net/"]The Ministry of Truth[/URL] - which is where this bill originated from. Many MP's are intereviewed (50ish) and are asked if they have an obligation to be truthful to the public. They all agree. They are then asked to support the bill, all of them refuse - except one. Whom is currently trying to put the bill forward. I suggest you give the site a browse. Here's an interesting quote from the site:

What’s the likelihood of the bill becoming law?

The Bill was originally presented by Adam Price MP to the House of Commons in October 2007, but ran out of time on second hearing.

After the expenses scandal, the coalition want to re-introduce it because the expense fraud is just a small part of a much bigger problem - MPs policing themselves for deception. No-one else can hold them to account.

Support is growing fast amongst MPs and the public. Especially in the current political climate. It’s too early to predict success or failure - the first stage is to get it debated in the House of Commons.

And your last sentence:

You just can't control the human mind with a law.

People who have studied the human mind deeply would argue against this. Great philosophers such as Butler and Aquinas would suggest that our conscience is moulded by society and the rules we make - law. Can human mind be controlled by law - debatable. Im pretty sure however everyone would agree that the human mind and the decisions it make can certainly be affected by the law.

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Thats a pretty poor argument.

Sorry not here to argue. You asked for "Thoughts". That's what I gave you.

Say as you wish - but I'm guessing you haven't watched The Ministry of Truth[/URL]

True, I didn't watch. I did look on the web page and honestly it looked like something out of Monty Python (no offense). If the UK can get politicians to say they will be truthful and then really do it, let the rest of the world know, because we all sure can use it. I read your post, I still think it's a gimmick. You wanted opinions, I reluctantly gave you one because lying politicians in the UK is not an immediate problem for me. If you haven't noticed we have a government here in the US full of lying politicians from the president on down. Everyone of them say they tell the truth, even when they get caught with their hand in the cookie jar. IMO, no piece of paper is going to change that. Perhaps this subject is best left to one of your countrymen who may have a dog in this fight. Good luck.

You just can't control the human mind with a law.

People who have studied the human mind deeply would argue against this.

Maybe some believe so, but the prisons are full of people that prove my point. I'm sure if asked before hand, all of them would say crime is bad. Perhaps they just didn't get their notice in the mail that crime is wrong. Ask them if they are innocent and telling the truth and I'm sure most of them would say yes.

I'm pretty sure however everyone would agree that the human mind and the decisions it make can certainly be affected by the law.

I believe you are confusing the law with the consequences of breaking a law. Take talking on cell phones while driving. It's illegal (against the law), but people weigh the consequences over their perceived need and do it anyway. The people that don't drive and talk either do not have a need, find it morally wrong (their own set of laws), or fear the ramifications (higher insurance, fine, court fees, lost time). Make lying punishable by death and maybe it will occur less, but rest assured it will still occur.

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Sounds like a good idea. For that reason, I can't see politicians agreeing to it!

I don't think the penalties should be quite so severe as implied in the link (fine and up to 10 years job ban - 10 years sounds a bit extreme for a lie IMO, assuming it's one that falls outside of the criminal system).

Ultimately the electorate should be allowed to decide if a lie is severe enough for someone to be banned or not - hence remoev the ban [as a politician], and just have a fine coupled with an automatic election trigger for more severe offences. That is, if someone gets caught in a lie they have to face the electorate. Maybe then you could have them barred from serving for 1 term if they lose that election/vote of confidence.

I recall reading somewhere that in the UK parliament politicians aren't even allowed to say someone's lied no matter how blatant the lie - small wonder that so few want to support a law to make it illegal!

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