CharlesCS CharlesCS

Net Neutrality - I'm confused.

Net Neutrality - I'm confused.

Can someone explain why is Net neutrality a good or bad thing? I'm a bit confused since I, apparently, don't seem to understand it too well.

I thought it sounded like a good thing since it will force Internet providers to give everyone equal use of the Internet (that's how I understand it) but I see a lot of resistance against this and can't understand why. A little help here.

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Reply #26 Top

Well well, hasn't this gone off topic! To be fair I find myself doing the very same thing all the time too, c'est la vie.

Getting back to the issue of Net Neutrality....which actually has nothing to do with dems/repubs/health insurance/big evil gov/tinfoil hat conspiracies... this is how I see it. Think of it more as a battle between application developers and network providers. Also, think of it as a battle between small and large ISP's. Lastly, think of it as a clash that occurs when technical realities...that are constantly changing.. become entwined with political and commercial realities, which are also constantly changing. Unfortunately Chuck (Charles?) there is no one side that you should be on definitively as there are multiple arguments for an issue which has many facets. 

First to the application side of things. When the internet first started expanding into homes and small business, it could be summed up with two happy little words:

Best Effort.

90% of home users used the internet mostly for downloading things. Webpages, e-mails and various files. Most of these transactions occurred with your computer sending out a little tiny amount of info requesting a file (your upload) and getting in return a lot of data coming from a server somewhere, your download. For years, the majority of users only cared about getting good download speeds as the casual user didn't upload too terribly much. Furthermore, the nature of most of the stuff being downloaded was not dependent on arriving in order. Whether the data arrived out of order or some got lost along the way and had to be re-sent, it really didn't matter because eventually it would all arrive, then get shuffled into the proper order and voilla, you're ready to rock.

Yourself being a gamer I'm sure you're well aware that this idyllic world didn't last too terribly long as now the interwebs are carrying all kinds of real-time dependent traffic. For a voice conversation, whether you're using skype or teamspeak or whatever, if the packets arrive terribly out of order then the audio might be all garbled. Also, if some of the traffic get's lost along the way there's no sense in the far-end resending it, because by the time it arrives chances are good it would be far too out of sequence to be of any good. So, that traffic that got lost just falls into the void and you might get dead patches in your conversation where the other party's voice just drops off for a bit. These are issues that for non-real time applications like downloading a file via FTP, no one really had to worry about previously.

Also with applications like bittorrent, online gaming and all the various "cloud computing" models out there, every home user is turning into a miniature datacenter that's trying to send and receive larger and larger amounts of traffic. Remember, back in the day most heavy duty lifting was done by servers, usually in nice big data centers with nice fat pipes where the home user just needed a fraction of their download speed for their upload to request files. Now peer to peer has largely turned this on it's head.

Finally, keep in mind that now every little widget and application being made is trying to get on the web for some reason or another. While in the past "surfing the web" might have meant one or two packet flows (or service flows, or connections, whatever you prefer to call them) now you can at any point in time have multiple flows to and from your PC even if it's just sitting there idle, what with a dozen programs from windows to games to anti-virus software automatically going out and seeking the latest in updates and patches. And this is not even getting into the malicious stuff like malware and spyware.

So I just gave you a background that I'm sure you already know very well, what the heck does it have to do with net neutrality?

The application developers- the folks who make peer to peer software and voice clients and streaming video- want the network providers to treat the traffic generated by their applications to not be discriminated against. Now, in principle this sounds absolutely reasonable and seems like a fair request.

In practice, every major ISP has learned the unfortunate truth that you can never have too much bandwidth. No matter how much money is spent on infrastructure and expanding the "pipes" that make up a network, if given free reign the end users, knowingly or not, will very quickly be able to snap up the excess bandwidth and then you run into the tuesday night 9:00 pm frustration of having your game freeze up and become un-playable.

Now, when this happens the ISP usually understands and fully realizes that they've got a congested network and they WILL try to fix it, but pesky realities like the cost of running a new fiber between cities or installing better optical gear mean that they have to justify the business case for doing so, and even if they do this right away it will take time for them to increase the bandwidth regardless. Political problems can derail it too- what if the ISP can't secure the land-use rights to run a new fiber and instead has to go to one of their competitors to lease a dark fiber from them at an outrageous rate?

Anyway. Let's say that the ISP finally doubles the available bandwidth by turning up or expanding a link, and for a time life is good again. But the problem with bandwidth usage it that it almost seems to run on a logarithmic scale (notice I said SEEM, not actually does), whereas increasing the available bandwidth on the network seems to happen more in a linear, fixed fashion. If you've got a 45 Mbps link that get's fully congested, you turn up another 45 Mbps link, and have just increased your available bandwidth by 100%. That second link gets congested so you turn up another 45 Mbps link and you've just gained 50% more bandwidth. Then a month later the third link gets used up so you turn up another 45 Mbps link and this time you've only increased by 30%, and so on until you realize that the time between network congestion on your links is getting shorter and shorter and you have to spend more money to turn up a more robust link.

The point behind this ramble is that the network provider can't simply expand their network bandwidth infinitely as they will run into the walls created by cost, time and geography. At some point, the network provider needs to get into the network management game.

This is a very, very large part of the net neutrality argument.

Let's pretend you're the CEO of an ISP. At certain times of the week, your network is getting heavily congested in certain areas. While you put the ball in motion to expand certain links, the end users are nonetheless going to have to live with congestion and slower than normal speeds for some time. Could be months or longer.

What do you do in the meantime? You have several options. One is to let your network drop excess traffic randomly. This is what many people call the fairest option. Under this way of doing things, when the network is congested, and the pipes are as full as they're going to get, routers just start randomly (or as random as a machine can get) discarding packets. They don't care what type of traffic it is. Under this way of doing things a packet that's part of your voice call is just as likely to be dropped as a packet that's part of my music download, which is just as likely to get dropped as a packet that's part of a web-page and so on.

There are lots of other options on which multiple books have been written. Some ISP's crunch the numbers and decide to install a farm of webcache servers. Other ISP's (especially cable providers for reasons I won't get into here) decide to get into the traffic management game, particularly something called deep packet inspection.

This is where the ISP actually looks into the packets you're sending and looks at the actual data. Think of it like a traffic cop shining a flashlight inside of a car instead of just looking at it's license plate. The reasoning goes that by performing packet inspection, the network provider can decide that at peak times they're going to choose to discard more traffic that's being used for peer to peer than they will for something like downloading web-pages. On the other hand, they can also decide that traffic for voice applications (which hopefully is using a well known protocol) will NOT be dropped under any circumstances and therefore get through to the other side.

Again, the highway analogy. Think of a really busy road and the cops have decided that there are simply too many cars trying to use it at the same time. So, before you can get on the road they look in your car. An ambulance needing to get to the city on the other end (in reality a phone call) would get preference and be allowed while a car-full of teenagers (a bittorrent download) would be told to go home and come back and try later. The ambulance needs to get through right now, or else all will be lost but the car-full of teenagers will grumble but come back in a bit and try again.

This is just an example but it's what a lot of larger ISP's do during primetime. They use deep-packet inspection to -TRY- and identify the type of traffic and then discriminate based on that to determine who can go and who can't in order to try and keep the road from getting congested. Once it does get congested then you have the all-bets-are-off crapshoot.

I said they try to indentify the type of traffic because nowadays there's a MASSIVE amount of traffic on the internet that is encrypted. This is everything from banking information to VPN traffic to bittorrent clients that are trying to mask their traffic from being identified as peer to peer. Most ISP's have a default policy that they throttle encryped traffic- anything they can't readily identify they throttle it back quite a bit. They don't kill it outright, but if you're trying to use a VPN client between home and office at primetime and it always slows to a trickle that might be why.

So there you have the question: Should network providers be able to manage their networks as they deem fit or should they step back and allow all traffic the same preference regardless of congestion or other issues?

Also, there's always the security concerns that with deep-packet inspection an ISP could look into your traffic and see sensitive personal information, or see that you're downloading illicit or illegal content and call the cops and so forth. Nevermind that most personal information -should- be encrypted automatically by most programs today, the question is largely philosophical.

In truth network providers are way tooo busy to ever bother themselves with knowing or caring the actual contents of a single subscriber's traffic (although it feeds the paranoia of the tin-foil hatters) and chances are good that if they ever did it would be after a knock on their door from a law enforcement agency that can legally get them to do so anyway. Again, the concern is simply to try and figure out -what- type of traffic it is and then make a decision to pass it on or drop it accordingly.

Interestingly enough, ALL of the major networking hardware manufacturers are in favor of allowing network providers to manage themselves (Cisco, Juniper, for example) and all of the big ISP's want to be able to police their networks as they see fit.

On the other side of the argument you have virtually all of the small ISP's who are mostly re-sellers off of the big ISP's networks, and all of the application types- Bittorrent, Amazon, Google, e-Bay, who say that the big ISP's by law should not be allowed to discriminate what type and what amount of various types of traffic they police on their networks and rather either expand their networks to keep up with demand or use other means of limiting congestion (other means like usage caps or over-usage extra charges and so forth)

Anywho, I could go on at length but I hope that helps you paint a better picture? Also please keep in mind that a lot of the above is very, very generalized as a lot of areas where broadly covered to try and give a general explanation, so as with all things in life please take what I just said with a grain of salt!

 

 

Reply #27 Top

Pelosi was referring to the paid for (guess who paid) disruptions and violent behavior in those meetings. The FBI should have probed who inspired and financed those disgraces.

You're kidding, right?

Reply #28 Top

What I've heard is that the corps solutions include charging users more to ensure that their packets arrive as opposed to those that don't pay more and receiving a denial of service. Sort of like electronic blackmail. It is also a another way to do more with less. Not investing in the infrastructure is one way to pay higher dividends, at the expense of the users, by limiting service, while increasing the client/service base.

 

IMO, the corps need to only offer the services that they have the resources to support. If they lose customers because their service sucks then...

Reply #29 Top

Artysim,  damn thats wall of text nearly fell on me :omg:

Reply #30 Top

The real reason why net neutrality is controversial, is that lets the government again tell us what we can and cannot do.  Government intrusion is getting ridiculous.  It not enough they tell us that we MUST have healthcare, or that I must wear a seatbelt, and even more so when they tell people how much money they can make or how much profit a company is allowed to earn... now we want them telling us how we should allow other to use what is ours.

Now personally i don't like how some ISP's are behaving... but as a customer I choose to use them.  And as a customer I can choose not to use them as well.  I don't want the government reaching the point of me not being allowed to make a choice as with everything else they come in contact with.

Of course now liberals love to think that the government is the answer to solve everything, but I assure it's not... if you don't like the way your ISP behaves, then find another.  You have options to DSL, Cable, Satellite and even dial-up...

If you want to support anything regarding the Internet..  I must tell you vote to keep the government out of it at all costs... the price we pay to have them have a say so in it will cost more than just a little bandwidth and an advertisement.

And "Net Neutrality" is a bad choice of words to describe this debate...  because once the government enters the ring there will be nothing neutral about it...

If you think for one second that the government is the right choice, then I suggest you take a look around you and see what is happening now... government is not the answer.  It wasn't before and it isn't now.

Reply #31 Top

This is the essence, w/o the paranoia just tell me what's wrong with:

[from ChuckCS link]

Under the draft rules, subject to reasonable network management, a provider of broadband Internet access service may not:

1) prevent any of its users from sending or receiving the lawful content of the user's choice over the Internet;

2) prevent any of its users from running the lawful applications or using the lawful services of the user's choice;

3) prevent any of its users from connecting to and using on its network the user's choice of lawful devices that do not harm the network;

4) deprive any of its users of the user's entitlement to competition among network providers, application providers, service providers, and content providers.

5) A provider of broadband Internet access service must treat lawful content, applications, and services in a nondiscriminatory manner.

6) A provider of broadband Internet access service must disclose such information concerning network management and other practices as is reasonably required for users and content, application, and service providers to enjoy the protections specified in this rulemaking.

And someone has to monitor that. Like it or not, that falls to the FCC.


 

 

Reply #32 Top

if you don't like the way your ISP behaves, then find another. You have options to DSL, Cable, Satellite and even dial-up...

Once one ISP charges a sliding rate for service then they all will. I guess then one can be just NOT on the internet anymore.

If you think for one second that the government is the right choice, then I suggest you take a look around you and see what is happening now...

what's happening now is that the government is attempting to pull us out of a hole that was created by irresponsible capitalism. you know, the market meltdown, the current recession, 10% unemployment, etc. Which I might add is essentially because there was no government oversight. with stiff oversight looming businesses are looking for inventive ways to take what little money we have left by charging you extra to insure non-interrupted internet/download services. Our condition was inherited by the current administration, they did not create it.

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Reply #33 Top

Quoting gmc2, reply 32
if you don't like the way your ISP behaves, then find another. You have options to DSL, Cable, Satellite and even dial-up...

Once one ISP charges a sliding rate for service then they all will. I guess then one can be just NOT on the internet anymore.

If you think for one second that the government is the right choice, then I suggest you take a look around you and see what is happening now...
what's happening now is that the government is attempting to pull us out of a hole that was created by irresponsible capitalism. you know, the market meltdown, the current recession, 10% unemployment, etc. Which I might add is essentially because there was no government oversight. with stiff oversight looming businesses are looking for inventive ways to take what little money we have left by charging you extra to insure non-interrupted internet/download services. Our condition was inherited by the current administration, they did not create it.

Finally! Thank you gmc2. This is what I was saying also, however you summarized it all far better while I allowed myself to be sidetracked.

Reply #34 Top

DrJBHL -

Sounds fair enough, right?  But it all depends on what's 'reasonable' & 'lawful,' doesn't it?

Edit:  Sounds like from #33 that you get it.

Reply #35 Top

I believe The Constitution has that covered, Daiwa. I don't want a political discussion...only preventing some big assed corporation that values money more that individual freedom starts limiting it.

Reply #37 Top

I believe The Constitution has that covered, Daiwa.

I used to believe The Constitution had our backs.  Not so certain anymore. <_<

Reply #38 Top

@DrJBHL...... You have a crazy amount of karma man. lol. Just sayin'. Totally off topic. And also, there's just too much political banter here. I rather bitch about the stupid Yankees winning Again. :P

Reply #39 Top

You all blame capitalism for this mess and i have to disagree... we can agree on some regulation, but we limit it to some.... the free market is not the criminal here.

Capitalism is hated by the lazy, the irresponsible and "the have not's because they did not (or will not)" people of the world who lust after the property of other people who made better choices, worked harder and longer than they did! Capitalism rewards personal effort, risk taking, inventions, progress and innovation. Without Capitalism, (to whatever degree it is allowed) there is no wealth generation, no innovation, no invention, no progress. Even the Chinese have finally figured it out and have become good Capitalists because they got tired of poverty, starvation, disease and human suffering! The enemies of capitalism are entitlements, and "something for nothing". The risk of Capitalism is that some in that society will have the freedom to fail. The risk of not having capitalism is that everyone will we starving, in poverty and suffering.

Reader comments
Walter E. Williams: Capitalism not to blame for crisis



Even the people who are wealthy and blame capitalism benefit from the very thing they hate.  I have yet to hear of any of them distributing their own wealth to the "have not's".  I agree with the irresponsibility part, and there are people who just out right greedy, but to blame capitalism for their folly is just plain ridiculous.

 

Our condition was inherited by the current administration, they did not create it.

your right, it wasn't inherited by the Bush administration, you can blame all this of Barney Frank and Chris Dodd... and the beloved Clinton adminstration... click here.  The Bush adminstration made efforts to tighten regulation but the Democratic Congress stopped it click here click here...

but now were getting off track... Net neutrality is not good in the short run, whose to say down the road it maybe necessary, but as for now, leave it alone.

 

Reply #40 Top

Quoting pjdark, reply 38
@DrJBHL...... You have a crazy amount of karma man. lol. Just sayin'. Totally off topic. And also, there's just too much political banter here. I rather bitch about the stupid Yankees winning Again.

1. I happen to be the temporary holder of the title "Karma Whore" invented by Po' (I think) and inherited by the former KW, Zubaz himself. I've been trying to wheedle SD into a trade off for Pizza and beer but someone pointed out that a *certain* Mod (who shall remain nameless HG_E) is The Pizza Vulture and the pizza would never get here. The beer would disappear at SD (only because Jafo is in Oz). ;)

2. You're absolutely correct. The topic is Net Neutrality which I could not be more in favor of.

3. Start with me about the Yankees? Are you sure you want to do that, pj? Really sure? :annoyed: XD

Reply #41 Top

@The_Goo: I maintain that like "a stitch in time saves nine" regulation should have been in place and that includes all the aforementioned pols (yeech)(sorry about the obscenity).

I believe (having lived 62 yrs. on this mudball) that corporations operate to maximize profit and centralize power. Regulation will stop them and hold them accountable if enforced. Being an MD I also like Preventive Medicine. It beats being awakened at 2-3 a.m. for something that could have been averted. Therefore, since no one should have an objection to the principles listed by me above, and since they're being enacted, the rest is moot.

I also agree that capitalism is not at fault here. Greed and human nature are. So let's head it off this time before we can't.

Reply #42 Top

Goo, I'm with Doc on this, "irresponsible capitalism (greed)", as I stated, is a problem that impacts all of us. I concur with your time line and diss Greedspawn for advising previous presidents that the markets could regulate themselves.

Reply #43 Top

Quoting gmc2, reply 42
Goo, I'm with Doc on this, "irresponsible capitalism (greed)", as I stated, is a problem that impacts all of us. I concur with your time line and diss Greedspawn for advising previous presidents that the markets could regulate themselves.

I agree...in theory markets can regulate themselves. This is predicated upon honesty and transparency along with the competence of the people in that market. In practice, what we have is real people with real motives that need regulation to protect the liberties and savings/investments of the individual.

Reply #44 Top

I agree...in theory markets can regulate themselves. This is predicated upon honesty and transparency along with the competence of the people in that market. In practice, what we have is real people with real motives that need regulation to protect the liberties and savings/investments of the individual.

When the theory and practice are so far removed... worlds apart, regulation is essential... otherwise the gap between the haves and the have nots becomes an insurmountable chasm.  And when the have nots have nothing left to take, the capitalists simply move on and abandon them.

In truth/reality, markets regulating themselves is a fucking joke...

Reply #45 Top

There is a tendency to equate capitalism with greed.  This is untrue, despite Newsweek and Paul Krugman.  Greed exists no matter the economic system.  In a capitalist meritocracy the demarcation between 'enlightened self-interest' and 'greed' is both a value judgement and highly subjective.  Through a few hundred years our society has largely worked out where that demarcation lies and formulated laws & regulations consistent with it.  We are now in the process of deciding whether to transition to a socialist aristocracy, in which greed will be much more arbitrary and oppressive and in which the difference between enlightened self-interest and greed becomes less and less meaningful.

There will always be victims of greed.  I'd rather be a victim of capitalist greed, which has many beneficiaries and few victims, than socialist greed, which has many victims and limited beneficiaries.  I'd have much greater potential to recover from the former than the latter, because I'd still be living in a meritocracy.

Reply #46 Top

I just don't see this 

transition to a socialist aristocracy
.

I feel this is more PR/spin than reality, more smoke than substance, more fear mongering.

In keeping with the OP's topic, I want my access to the net unfettered by someone else's "enlightened self interest". Period.

Daiwa, supporting your viewpoint is the same (in my old eyes) as espousing "enlightened" limitations to The First Amendment guarantee of free speech.

 

Reply #47 Top

I just don't see this
transition to a socialist aristocracy

That suggests that you may not be paying adequate attention.  It has nothing to do with mongering 'fear' (though I'll stipulate that Michael Moore & Al Gore have made a ton of dough doing just that) - there is nothing inherently 'frightening' in the phrase 'socialist aristocracy.'  I happen to prefer a society organized as a capitalist meritocracy over one organized as a socialist aristocracy.  And, if you don't buy that there is a concerted effort to transform our current capitalist meritocracy into a socialist aristocracy, just ask George Soros or any of those actively engaged in that effort - they're presently not particularly hard to find.

With apologies to Chuck.

Reply #48 Top

All depends on the eyes of the beholder, I guess. But I do pay attention. Not harkening to that drum beat doesn't mean one is deaf. To each his own view of things.

Reply #49 Top

When the theory and practice are so far removed... worlds apart, regulation is essential... otherwise the gap between the haves and the have nots becomes an insurmountable chasm.

It's a double edged sword were playing with.  Though I agree that unregulated capitalism can increase this gap between the haves and have nots, too much regulation will do the same and faster and in fact too much regulation will increase the size of the have nots and shrink that of the haves far quicker than if it left to its own accord.   This nationalized healthcare will only help with separation of the wealthy and the poor.  Think about the bourgeoisie and proletariats prior to the French revolution.

True healthcare reform would be to fix the system, not rebuild it.  Especially when rebuilding leaves intact the same flaws that our current system has.

In truth/reality, markets regulating themselves is a fucking joke...


Completely disagree, the market can regulate itself with a check and balance systems...  oh wait, it already does.  It's called "supply and demand", but in order for supply and demand to work, it must be available to everyone.  If every insurance company were able to sell insurance to everyone in the US, I assure you cost would drop due to competition alone.  Same thing with cable service, though this is not feasible because the networks being owned.  But take a look at satellite TV, Satellite TV used to cost a fortune, but now that Direct TV, Dish network and whatever else is out there, the cost have dropped.  Now even the poor can have what only the very wealthy once only had access too.

And, if you don't buy that there is a concerted effort to transform our current capitalist meritocracy into a socialist aristocracy, just ask George Soros or any of those actively engaged in that effort - they're presently not particularly hard to find.

agreed !

In keeping with the OP's topic, I want my access to the net unfettered by someone else's "enlightened self interest". Period.

I couldn't agree you anymore on this.  But getting the government involved is not the best bet.  I know right now it seems that we need to but in the future i don't think this will be a problem.  I do think that if you get the government involved now you will never get rid of them and you will in time regret it.

The future is wireless technology, in time cable companies and phone companies will not be the sole provider of internet access. Wireless will soon take hold and cable and DSL will soon fall by the wayside.  Just give a few years.  Cable and DSL are limited to what they can provide.  Wireless will soon outpace the old technology.  Then competition will take over and the capitalism mechanisms will show its value.  If you think i am wrong then take a look at the development of cellular communications.  The technology is exploding and soon T-Mobil, ATT, Sprint, Boost Mobil, MetroPCS, Verizon, Alltel, Bello Mobility, Criket, Tracfone, SunCom, CODETEL, Virgin Mobil and many others will be able to provide you quality and affordable internet access.  Look at the develpment of 3G and now the new 4G...  pretty soon you will end up dropping your land line for the better and faster wireless connection.

Can you imagine what would happen if there was that kind.  Soon your concerns will be of no more and we ended getting the governemt involved in something that was completely unncessary.

Reply #50 Top

I couldn't agree you anymore on this. But getting the government involved is not the best bet.

It's the only bet. It's called the FCC.

I do think that if you get the government involved now you will never get rid of them and you will in time regret it.

Get rid of the Government? WHAT? You must be joking...and who would govern, etc. ?

I don't want to get rid of the Government. I want it to function correctly.

I've explained my thoughts and the reasoning behind them enough.

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