variety and level of fantasy for the human factions

from Elemental Forums

There has been a lot of discussion on whether it's good or bad to only have human factions (incl. fallen) in Elemental. As background I should state that for me, the game is lacking a major element with this "only human" approach. I think this view could be shared by quite some people outside the forum too. I think e.g. about one reaction which just shows the suspicion: in an interview with Brad (can't remember name of occasion) all the other panelists kept referring to "the elves of Elemental". When told that there will only be humans they seemed surprised and confused (like being told that they'll only get one dish when expecting a three dish gourmet dinner ...) Especially for people who don't know much about the game it could be a turn-off for some of them (but not for all I'm sure). 

However, I think you can do a PERFECT game with only humans, by giving them very different and varied abilities, unique look and amazing backstory etc. But it will be so difficult. Let's face it, chances are we'll end up (at least to start) with a rather usual concoction of human factions: they look a bit different and each have a few modifiers. The AI is more aggressive for some than others. But imagine if Stardock would really invent 12 full blown, unique and really memorable factions with completely different abilities and all. That's a lot of work, and it's difficult work (and of a different nature than programming).

I wanted to propose to include a maximum of variety combined with a high-level of fantasy for the human factions.

With several races you could of course do it either well or less well too. If you just throw in the usual orcs, elves and dwarves with no backstory at all, then it would be rather standard and weak. But you could also do the same amazing work with different races like you could for human factions. But for now we'll have to go with the humans.

For comparison, with several races you get much more variety if the factions are either bland or amazingly done, because you can have flying units, units (draconians) exploding when they die, units turning the enemy to stone, undead, seafolk moving under water, cat men attacking twice as fast, foot soldiers made of fire who set forests and vegetation on fire where they move, etc. But in fact you could also give such abilities to humans, through inventing a good backstory, using e.g. magical heritage and mutations. But will it be done? This is what I'm proposing. (I'm not talking about a single spell or a single conjured monster, but about the Faction as template.)

So what I would urge for in Elemental with only humans is that the factions would basically be as varied as of above even if human, with good backstory and tightly kept concepts.

Because I don't know how to mod a cool draconian in 3D, exploding when it dies, or how to mod the enemy being turned to stone ... And it would be a much more memorable game if the factions are taken more to the extremes and developed into truly unique creations, with abilities that make the game-play very different for each one of them.

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Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

 I am with you on this one. The old-school FRP guy in me wanted to see elves and undead and you-name-it races ala MoM or AoW. Its not a deal-breaker. But it sure would be awesome. I also agree with you that I hope the factions are more different than a coat of arms.

However, this game has gotten my attention regardless.

I still have a wait and see attitude on this since there isn't a whole lot out there, and I missed the opportunity for beta.

(Not that i am bitter about that. I did early beta for World of Warcraft back in 2004. I still think Blizzard should have given me a check for sloshing thru and reporting all those bugs :) . Maybe I will get into a later beta when there is more meat on the bone. )

(edit: I will say I like the Stardock is conducting thier beta as opposed to Blizzard. They seem to be alot more open and listen. But considering Blizzard had bnet kiddies and alot of immaturity to deal with, I can forgive them. )

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

well, I'd certainly like an Undead based Religion, a Draconian based religion, an Earth/Nature based religion, and so on ... I'd like to see limited auxiliary units being used based upon which religion you follow ... and of course for the Undead religion to have hordes of zombies .... heck, it would be cool if you could mod in a Zombie infection mod, start of with 1-3 infection starting points, and play as the Soveriegn in a world undergoing the Zombie appocalypse, just you the person/unit, maybe a small band of up to 10 adventurers .... ^_^

It would also be nice to have "angels" in a few religions and "demons" in a few religions. For instance, Fire, Earth, and Death demons, Air, Water, and Life angels. Of course, I would want all to look scary looking with a variety of scales, fur, feathers, and skin. For instance, I imagine an Air angel to be a flying scaly draconian with glowing eyes, shooting electricity out from its feathery wings or somesuch. These would be powerful creatures with a high upkeep that you can only recruit if you are following a certain religion. Also, if you are following the draconian religion (an off-shoot brand, not elemental based) ... you will have a natural "sense" of where all the lizardman kingdoms are, so the location of lizzie caves will be revealed to you on the map, and you can go there with Sovereign/Royal/Hero/Diplomat to recruit them to the cause .... and it makes lizzie and other reptile units have strong morale bonuses in your army. ... There will probably be a questline along the path of the Draconian religion, which will eventually lead to raising your own dragon.

Also, a highlevel spell only unlockable by the Undead religion would be a powerful death spell to contact a powerful Bone Dragon, or Draco-Lich even .... and you would have to recruit him and may a hefty payment ... or something. Maybe recruting such a Draco-lich would require a substantial essense cost (like 5? 10? more?)

Of course, there are all kinds of skelletons, zombies, spectres, and other forms of undead creature that could be used ... especially lots of different kinds of zombies from all those Undead fiction stories out there. And most can be fit into fantasy.

Water-angels would probably either not leave the water, and be as mermaids, or they could be giant amphibians, like the powerful prophets that ruled over the lizard kingdoms in warhammer.

However, I see nothing wrong with having a human-only game ... with most of the army being massive legions of (wo)men. I would however like to potentially unlock powerful auxiliaries based upon Religions and Quests. (also the MasterSword should be part of the MasterQuest :p) (in addition to the certainly powerful adventurers/heroes and royalty you will aquire over time)

I would certainly like to see Royalty visibly age after a time, but never truly die. Not sure if this is possible, but it would be neat. Or at least an ability to make my more elder queens, kings, barons, duchesses and so forth ... to look older, from a slight greying of the hair to a total grey-white of the hair and paler skin ... possibly wrinkles too, although depending on how often or close-up we see our royalty, it could be different. For all intents and purposes the Sovereign could very well look exactly the same for the whole game (other than equipment) but yea, deciding not only stats/backstory/skills/weapons/spells, but also starting off with visual customization would be nice. Maybe I want an eye-patch, a couple gold fillings, a war-ponytail, and war-paint. Or maybe I want thick over-sized nerd glasses, a frail physique, and long matty hair. Or maybe I want a really cut and bulky sovereign with war scarring, a missing ear, Either in full armor or in the more free-form barbarian leathers.

Just stuff like that. Obviously some things could be a reflection of stats, but I would rather not get Fable-y .... just to have that option if I wanted.

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Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

Give a race of "humans" bonuses in forests and skill in archery, and you can think of them as elves. 

I'm in favor of lots of variety.  Eventually a lot more than 12 factions, from expansion packs or user-generated content.  I just don't care much what they call them.

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

yea, I'd say different factions could have various terrain and weapon-type bonuses, even magic bonuses ... some could have faster cavalry, (faster horses), or more loyal populations, or be more magically resistant somehow ... but other than magic-based physical properties, I wouldn't want to see any sci-fi like changes to humans in order to make them fit some kind of stereo-type. For instance, I wouldn't want a race/faction of humans to breath underwater, or naturally talk to animals, or be able to rapidly climb trees/ect so as to live in houses in tree-tops. Or to have night vision, or thicker skin more resistant to physical damage, ect. Although its a very fine line.

There is alot of diversity you CAN add without it being physical properties. For instance, from a cultural perspective (in buy-in civ points) ... is national morale based upon Gold in the treasury (vaults/economy) ... books in the library (science/academies) ... trees in the country side (environmental) ... and how does the culture look upon coupling? Are they relatively fast breeders (similar to orcs), or are they relatively slow breeders (similar to elves) ... although their will be no extremes in breeding capability or lifespan, as they are all the same species. In addition to having the same lifespan (although that will probably not be in the game anyways) they will all be affected by diseases and poisons the same way. There will be no bonuses vs giants, no disease resistance, ect.

Of course, over the course of the game the sovereign could find civ-affecting spells that alter the entire nation and its inhabitants. For instance, there could be a spell that triples national birth rate/ survival rate, although cuts lifespan by half. In addition, there could be a Civ-wide spell to increase disease resistance/poison resistance and slightly lower the birth rate ... or even a spell to make all peoples disease/plague immune and poison immune, while significantly lowering the birthrate (by a third? a full half?)

Of course all things would have to be *somewhat* balanced ... although I see civ-affecting spells as situational for some-what desperate times/contingencies (except for maybe the rapid birth one) ... so I see significant penalties for an even greater civ-wide bonus. However you will have to think about the consequences of those actions ... because something like granting plague and poison immunity could save you from all manner of diseased/posionous beasts, as well as any world-wide plagues of course (or magic based plagues) ... however fighting a foe using pure numbers ... like the populous warmonger clan of Soviet Socialist Magicks, then your at a disadvantage unless you have significantly greater technology and resources to produce much finer quality troops than they posses, in which case it would be a difficult quantity vs quality war, in which each of your losses is a bitter sting, where they keep sending in practically un-trained grunts to do a little stabbity for alot of effect (in numbers).

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

Nah, as long as the modding tools will be as promised I don't see any problem with elemental only shipping with human factions, I allready know of 2 people who started to make fantasy models in Maya.

 

Warder

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

ON TOPIC:

Yup, I agree. Changing a name of the faction, together with it's models won't make the most important part of a 'race' - play style. This is the most important thing. You can create an illusion of a diversity by adding race division (between factions) and different graphics (unit models & skins, town graphics, etc.), but in the end it won't matter. As you have already said, there are a couple of ingredients needed for an enjoyable faction:

  • Diversified, distinct, unique and game changing faction 'features' (not some crappy +10% to birth rate, +1 to scout range, etc.).
  • Interesting and catching race background story.
  • Diversified graphic & sound themes.

Lets just cross our fingers waiting for Stardock to release the races.

OFF TOPIC:

Quoting Warderin, reply 5
Nah, as long as the modding tools will be as promised I don't see any problem with elemental only shipping with human factions, I allready know of 2 people who started to make fantasy models in Maya.

As much as I like (love?) the focus of this game on the modding part of the game, I say we can't be fooled by mods.

First, there can be good or bad mods. You can't just assume that you will be able to pick and choose in tons of awesome mods. There will be probably a few really good ones, but this leads me to another issue.

Second, how fast such mods will be released? Remember, modders are not payed (most of the time) for their work - they do it during their free time, so if they don't have a handful of people in their group (a standard I would say), they will need a couple of months to release anything decent. You really want to buy the game, get mad about lack of features, and wait 5 months - biting your fingernails - for some decent mod?

Third, if Stardock decides to implement more diverse races (with tons of different attributes, play-styles, skins & models), they will make it MUCH easier to add new races due to changes in the code. I know Frogboy stated many times that they want to make the game as moddable as possible, but let's be honest - there will always be some borders. Think about future of Elemental in a really pessimistic way: few copies of Elemental has been sold, and after a few patches the game is left on it's own. What now? You think modders will make a new game?

Forth, you know that the better the game, the more mods will be wrote for it? No one will want to mod a crappy game. There will be a few hardcore fans, but look at the story of UFO: Extraterrestrials. There is one modder that still maintains a BIG (and needed) mod for this game. Although, I really appreciate the work of many modders that provided their time to make the game so much better, the gameplay still lacks many elements you would like to see.