The take home point should be that Vasari has its strengths and weaknesses like each race.  Play the race you enjoy playing regardless of what anyone else thinks.  They are close enough to balanced to where it does not make a huge difference.  Just different tactics are employed.  Vasari are just as formidable as any race in their own ways.  It is up to you to learn those ways and exploit them against your enemy.

[_]-Greyfox

Vasari are my favorite to play and I only played them for many weeks straight before changing it up.

Later game thier ability to warp from planet to planet no matter the distance is amazing and makes defending your planets much easier.

Thier star bases are the best in game as they are the only ones that move perfect for defence or invading.

Like others said a balanced fleet is really important. But don't kill yourself trying to research them all at once.

Pick a couple to focus on first and them bring others in as you can.

The Vasari's emphasis in combat is partly reliant on disrupting enemy fleets to try to compensate for their lower damage. Of the frigate abilities, five (namely Interference, Jump Degradation, Shield Disruption, Distortion Field, and Inertial Field) are meant to make survivability, ability use, or even normal operations difficult or halted completely. Of the capital abilities, these include (but certainly not limited to) Jam Weapons, Disruptive Strikes, and Gravity Warhead. You won't find that many direct combat abilities among their ships.

I should revise my sentiment. There ARE strategies that can be exploited with Vasari. The fact is I just don't enjoy them as much as others.

If you've read even just a few of my posts, you know that my logic is amost always numbers driven.

The biggest problem I have is just that Vasari scouts can't be used effectively enough to counter Illums. If that worked, I'd shut up.

I also still think the neutral balance is out of whack. I like the concept that one race has easier access to neutrals, but where the devs missed the boat is they made the impact of neutrals so completely random that it can and often does throw the balance of starting positions way out of whack. The fact that this race is so deeply linked to going after neutrals means that if the map doesn't really have neutrals, this race is kinda in trouble.

well... I played a game as vasari on a map i KNEW there would be no neutrals...

It was an odd game to say the least... but it might be helpfull to watch what i do, maybe.

the teams are preety well balanced... a 3v3... one of each race on a symetrical map... where every race managed to start in the exact same spots... they even ended up with 2 more resource extractors than we did. (they had 3 extra crystal, and we had 1 extra metal)

Notice the crazy amount of communication going on between the team members... with out that communitcation (although... i was a little loud at times... :-/ ) was very important to the game.

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?ttnyzizm1wm

The key was playing off the race's strenghts... notice how each at least one player from each race does that really well.

Orange (advent) goes for crazy culture... and eventually gets deliverance engines on each of his planets

Yellow goes crazy economy... eventually getting starbases with 2 trade ports on almost every planet possible (except for one planet... which would have shortend his trade lane)

I, of course... ended up on the front lines... I starbase that roid as soon as I could... and then I do my best to protect myself with all the cool vasari ablities i could.

The game turnes into a stalemate quickly as the border worlds get PJI's and no one is willing to ruin their economy with fleeting up...

This, obviously, turns the game into a superweapon slugfest... they get 5 superweaons out before our first... but we were allready 1/2 prepared, as Yellow allready had starbases on every planet he owned, and I had starbases on my two border worlds... so enforced loyality/aux government was preety easy on our team... and green had build starbases with a culture upgrade or 2 on my planets to help combate oranges allready crazy culture...

and then it was our turn... Yellow's super economy ment that when that research finished up, he built 3 novaliths on the spot, and 2 more not long after... they were not prepared.

They desided to rush... and they almost made it past our border worlds... if I had not used the vasari advantages.

My PJI+a few nicely timed suberters followed by a gravity bomb froze their fleet while green (being advent) had no trouble doing some serious dps to their fleet. At that point it was over.

Edit: should i make this its own seperate thread?

Trying to learn to play Vasari (1.181, vs. AI).  Want to see if I can make the carrier work (don't ask why--because it's there).

Q: It appears that TEC carriers get 6 per squadron, Advent 7 (or maybe that's 4 + 3 for the 1st level ability--although the text says this bonus is fighters only and I'm seeing 7 bombers), Vasari 3 bombers or 4 fighters.

Are these numbers right?

If it is, are the Vasari strikecraft better?

If the squadron numbers are right and everybody's strikecraft are the same, what were the designers thinking?

You are correct, the Advent get the most strikecraft per squadron, but they are fragile and don't do as much damage. The TEC get something in the middle with about 6 fighters and 5 bombers, and have average stats. The Vasari have the best strikecraft in terms of quality (and that is not even including phase missiles), but they have the fewest craft per squadron.

In general the Advent strikecraft have a slight advantage due to more damage wasted on already destroyed strikecraft and faster respawn rates, but are extremely vulnerable to antistrikecraft abilities like flak burst (because of low HP and armor). The Vasari on the other hand rarely have all of their strikecraft lost due to abilities, but the slower respawn rate makes it harder for them to recover in a war of attrition.

Also carrier cruisers are very good ships, I don't know what you mean about making them work. Carrier capital ships on the other hand are much less popular (though they are better since 1.181).

Thanks; that helps.  What I meant about the CV was that I was determined to try it even though most on these forums think them weak.

  Vasari need fallback points with which to reintigrate their LFs and drop mines to damage their opponent without sustaining damage themselves- Even if they send a scout ahead, you gain time to regenerate health in your bread and butter ships, the LFs and HCs.  Gravity mines, even better- Suggest a mix of the two if you can afford it.

What are you smoking? Skirmishers and Enforcers are anything but "bread and butter ships". They are each the weakest of their type across all three races. Falling back into mine traps also pretty much only works on the AI and morons. The Ruiner is also of fairly limited use on the offensive - flakks will tear down the mines before they can activate and scouting will prevent running into prepared traps.

I admire your idealism though. If only things worked that way...

  As i said, scouting buys you time to regenerate, they have to spend those extra few seconds looking ahead, while you repair your hull and prepair for the next battle.  That is the purpose of Reintigration.  People need to suck it up and remember Vasari are Hit-and-Run fighters, just because the mine-trap won't work, doesn't mean it won't buy you some time.  The only real vial counters are a Scout-Flak advance, or the more expensive, but faster Scout Swarm, using the fodder ships to blow through a minefield so your fleet isn't touched, in either case, your opponent has wasted some valuable time, perhaps giving you what you needed.

  Bread and Butter is a term meaning the main combat units, so yes, while they're the weakest, the Vasari LF and HC ARE their Bread and Butter.  I didn't say they were equal, and again, you're trying to compare the ships in terms of a sustained battle, something the Vasari are agreeably awful at in terms of survivability.  You have to be sneaky, and that's why it's so difficult to play, most people just want the "Let's smash stuff" approach, and complain when these specialized ships fail.

Sounds ok in theory but it doesn't work in practice. Other races can patch up their fleet just as quickly so this is not an adequate trade-off for battlefield performance. Skirms are not "bread-and-butter" ships because they suck so bad no-one ever uses them.

Wrong. Hitting and running in this game only works if you have great firepower and can deal great damage and then escape. Vasari ships are not particularly fast and they do very little damage. They are UNABLE to hit-and-run.

If the mine trap saves you time that means that it worked. If it didn't work then it was a waste of time. If the mine trap worked and saved you time, the time saved is not worth the resources needed to make the trap.

Combat in Sins is all about "sustained battle". Standing up to the enemy's fleet is sustained battle is vital. Its how the game works. Vasari is awful in battles therefore they are underpowered! Games are won and lost through several sustained battles. Vasari has no advantage in "being sneaky" over the other races so this doesn't balance them out. Vasari are awful not at survivability, but in dealing damage. Combat in Sins is all about "lets smash stuff". Thats how you actually hurt your enemy.

Mid to late game, Vasari catches up with TEC and Advent, but this doesn't change the fact that Vasari ships are often overpriced and the Vasari have no other advantage to offset this.

It would make much more sense if TEC ships has the least cost efficiency. Afterall, they are retrofitted civilian vessels. Secondly, TEC has the best eco so they would be able to afford overpriced ships.

Reintegration works fairly well now...there is no reason to "fall back" to another system.  In the time it takes you to leave and come back you could have self repaired your ships!  Just repair on the spot, even in battle.  The only reason to fall back is if you are getting pounded and need to retreat so you don't lose your fleet.  Vasari ships are individually tough, even skirmishers, especially when fully upgraded.  The problem is they are all extremely expensive, so for the cost, you have the smallest fleet and lowest firepower.

Vasari do have some hit and run capabilities...phase gate mobility, Kostura phase gates, the Marauder, and using the Egg to ninja un-upgraded worlds.  But as people point out, for the most part, this does you no good if you are getting steamrolled and can't sustain yourself against the enemy fleet.  You can hide behind an Orkulus starbase for a bit, but all the money you spend on the Orky, the other guy is putting into his fleet and outflanking you -- if he is any good.

With the current balance of the game, it is extremely hard for Vasari to compete until very late game when they have all their technologies in play and their ships are upgraded.  The main way Vasari competes in early game is to control more neutrals so they have the resources to buy enough ships to win.  If that isn't possible, unless you are more skilled than your enemy, you are probably not going to survive until late game.

Vasari also used to be good very early game because they only needed 1 lab for their long range frigate.  Quick Start pretty much lets any race to get up and running quickly nowadays.  I still think it is important to have a Vasari on your side in a team game, but I'm a little more reluctant to use them in 1v1 now.  If you get lucky with good neutrals near you and good chokepoints to tie up with an Orkulus, Vasari can rock.  If you have no neutrals and there are no chokepoints, prepare for a painful game.

Just a quick question, as im still new.. and i LOVE the vasari (Mostly because i like the idea of planet traveling in 1 jump, and moving fast *per say*...) and this is a great place for vasari advice

1) How exactly does RA work... I built it in my game today, and i clicked it... and nothing happened.... but the timer happened...

So i built a 2nd, did it agian, nothing...

2) What exactly are phase missiles? everyone talks about them on all the vasari ships, but i dont see anything that states phase missiles?

3) Is the de-build upgrades worth it? They seem to cost a lot... and by the same term, the -cost to buildings/structures etc...?

And, i tend to use skirmishers w/reintegration.. Whats the "bread and butter" if its not them?

JuleTron- in case you haven't taken the time to notice, the Skirmisher has EXACTLY the same firepower as a Cobalt, and better shields, Hull, and Armor.  The ONLY thing that anyone has any real right to dislike is their supply cost.  I do agree that the game might have been better if they cost 6, rather than 7, but the ship is the strongest 1 on 1, even without upgrades.

if palidos was talking about Returning Armada, i'd actually like to know if your current remaining supply points have anything to do with using it.  I do know there is a delay, but i've played games vs AI where i never got the ships.

As for Phase Missiles, they are a weapon on both Squadron Types, Assailant, Sentinel, and every Capitol Ship except the Evacuator.  When researched (Not sure if they already have a small chance when starting) Phase Missiles have a chance of passing through enemy ship's shields, and striking the hull instead.  Researches increase this chance by 30%, making them very deadly weapons, particularly to advent, i think.

The lack of a percentage on the first upgrade implies there is no bypass on unupgraded phase missiles.

One could claim that phase missiles are the Achilles' Heel of the Advent, as these weapons will ignore their (often powerful) shields and shield abilities enough to cause their ships to burn while their shields are still up.

RA requires available fleet supply points for ships to actually arrive. Otherwise we would see people using RA to ignore the entire fleet supply system and get theoretically unlimited ships.

Palidos:

1.) Returning Armada does not work, it's craptastic. But enjoy if you're winning already anyway Make sure that you have available fleet supply and the necessary resources to pay for your ships... sadly, they aren't free anymore.

2.) Phase missiles are the primary weapon of the Vasari. The long range frigates use them, the cap ships use them, the starbases use them, the fighters and bombers use them, the flakk frigates use them. With upgrades they have a good chance to bypass shields (and shield mitigation!) to impact directly the hull of the enemy. This makes them very deadly.

3.) Yes and no. It's worth it if you want to collect salvage while in combat... but generally it's not much. It's sort of a tertiary tech.

4.) Assailants are the true bread and butter of the Vasari. You should have a goodly number of them in pretty much any fleet. Although fleet diversification is critical to the Vasari - spamming really won't get you anywhere. Skirmishers and Enforcers at this point really just serve to take some hits (against the AI at least); damage-wise they don't accomplish much, and the enforcers are very expensive to upgrade, and the tech involved only noticeably helps Enforcers - very cost ineffective unless you've got the cash to spare.

Callen, the dps comparison you gave for the Light Frigates, is that after upgrades or before upgrades, and does it take into account abilities?

couldnt say it better.

But right now, the bigest vasa problem r bugged lums.

U simply cant counter them witout SB when they reach critical mass. This is so retarded

Every time an advent player fighting vasa and looses, they spamm lums and its GG

Its so retarded u can see 7-8 advent in 10 peeps pugs. So lets all join the unity.

BTW i heard very nice suggestion lately; lums should have 5 beams insteed of 3

yeah I joined the dark side

Amish may have started the scout rush but I've started the diciple rush

Lol. Imagine that. People are experimenting with new strategies. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Give the Vasari a scout that can actually counter LRFS and the Illuminator spammer won't be a problem for Vasari. Scouts are the very early game answer to Illums for both TEC and Advent, an answer that Vasari doesn't have.

Why would giving the Vasari scout buffed stats be so ridiculous. Have you SEEN the stats on the seeker? I'm not saying give the Vasari scout like

• 600hp
  
• 400shields
• 3 armor
• 4.5 dps

but something along the lines of

• 500 hp (+75 health net)
  
• 350 shields (+125 shields net)
  
• 2.5 armor (I think +.5 armor net)
  
• 4 dps (+.5 dps net)
  

Would be completely appropriate.

Even late game. Against Illums and flak, fighters aren't that great an option, and if HC's are out of the question (somtimes time and money just don't allow for it), Scouts still are the best answer.

To give you an idea, Illum spammers that make PURE Illums and like maybe 2-3 caps are easy pickings to scouts. I sent 300 TEC scouts against 100 Illums that were using the Illusion ability (so had to micro target) and completely crushed said player. Nothing brings satisfaction quite like crushing someone trying to exploit the game.

The "use the starbase" arguement is bullshit. The starbase can be used as a rush, sure, but NOT as a counter to lrfs. Starbases sorta blanket counter everything outside of bombers. Speaking of which, outside of bombers, lrfs are the one thing that can actually kill a starbase early on while it's building.

Ironically I don't scout rush much anymore. The feeling I get is that people are starting to drift away from lrf spamming, but that's where I'm going. Go figure.

Use the starbase argument is not bullshit.  It does a pretty damn good job against illums unless you have a buttload of illums.  With a built starbase I wont even approach a halfway upgraded vasari SB unless I have 50+ upgraded illums backed with guardians and a progen.  With an unupgraded vasari SB, I will not attack even with 20 illums and progen.  Illums are not near the problem as the BS scout/disc rush that JJ uses ad nauseum now.  Try a vasari against that and see how they do without using a SB.  It wasn't illums that brought JJ to advent.  It was scouts and discs.  Wrap your head around that.

[_]-Greyfox

Actually some did the scout/dicilpe rush.  What I'm doing was pure diciple rush until they make lrf.   I was testing ways of countering fast scout/diciple rush. Used halycon as a starting cap along with maybe 1 or 2 more

I never denied that, and actually was adjusting my post to include some of the points you have made when you wrote this. I am well aware that starbases counter well, but that's more because starbases counter basically everything except for bombers/anti-module cruisers. 

The issue I have here is that as Vasari you have to put the effort into the starbase rush mentality early knowing that you want to fight off Illums. Now, putting my issues aside with the fact that starbases can build in enemy grav wells (sorry, I still think that's bull shit, I've adapted to fighting it off but that doesn't change my feeling towards it), I don't like being told

"he has Illums, your fighters will do no good because he has a ton of flak and a halcyon, you scout blows, and flak army will slowly be word down because he can use shield regen to negate the damage that you are distributing among his fleet rather than taking down one target at a time. Build a starbase."

This is the exact reason I don't play Vasari. Once the Illums are out, I don't see an adequate answer (this includes the enforcers, increasing the range of the enforcer doesn't fix the imbalance of illum vs. enforcer in my book) for Vasari, or to better phrase it, I don't have the feeling of comfort knowing that the race has a designed counter. Advent have seekers/fighters/destras. All can do the trick. Tec have arcovas/fighters/kodies. All can do the trick. 

Vasari have navigators/fighters/enforcers. Fighters are the only one that can do the trick and if the enemy has flak you're only option is a starbase. I don't like building stationary objects stuck in one grav well. I like fleets, and if I'm investing in a starbase, that means I'm not going to be pushing his fleet around anytime soon.

Maybe this is that same feeling people have towards scouts that I failed to see. Something is being used in a way that I don't want it to be.

What I always tried to wrap my mind around was how JJ used Vasari and stayed with Vasari. I know JJ is if not the best player out there, definitely top 2. With the deficiencies of Vasari, I figured he like the challenge of hunting for neutrals and beating down opponents with experience.

I've pointed out numerous times the ridiculous stats of the disicple and seeker. I've been using them for a long time. I don't claim the strategy as my own. I only say I saw the numbers and couldn't bring myself to use anything else. I've always said Vasari has strategies that can be used and used effectively, but compared to TEC and Advent you put yourself through unnecessary hassle when playing Vasari.