The Difference between Anti-Semitism and the Palestinian Cause

The land (Israel) and the people (Jews) have always been attached.

So...does that somehow justify immorality and crimes of the war that Isreal has been raging ever since its creation by the UN?

Successfully updated karma reason!

leauki posts:

So please don't tell me that Israel is unique in harming people when fighting a war or that annexation of land in war is some sort of weird Zionist crime never perpetrated by anybody else.

leauki writes in original article:

"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on.

Isn't this just about the same as KFC said?

It's quite clear that there is a purpose for the land and for the people in the latter days as ithe prophets say. If not, the Jews wouldn't even be in their land today as they are and we wouldn't be having this discussion. It's not a coincidence that Israel became a nation in 1948. We are very close to something happening. Something is going to bust wide open and I believe it's very soon.

..... read Ezekiel and Zechariah. Both teach that Israel will possess their own land first when the nations come up against it. There's no history to back them up...as of yet. But we could be fast approaching the time when prophecy meets up with us and we will see history in the making like we did in 1948.

KFc, the Old Testament prophets prophecied the Messias, Emmanuel with us, Christ's First Coming...they didn't have Christ's Second Coming in mind....

It's only "quite clear" to those who harbor an Evangelical Millinneium Zionist ideology. Let's be quite clear as to what it really is....pure speculation on your part.

That you think ALmighty God is behind what modern Isreal has done and is doing is so off the chart it's ridiculous.

Successfully updated karma reason!

So...does that somehow justify immorality and crimes of the war that Isreal has been raging ever since its creation by the UN?

No. I'm afraid the immorality and crime of the Jews surviving those many attacks has nothing to do with a special attachment to the land.

The Jews should have fought back against the Germans too, before the Warsaw Ghetto revolt.

It's just that an organised defende in the land of Israel was more effective.

Sorry about the survival. Better luck next time?

Successfully updated karma reason!

"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on."

Isn't this just about the same as KFC said?

No.

KFC said that G-d gave all that land to Abraham and his descendants and that they will eventually rule over it when the Messiah comes. She believes that because the Bible says it will happen.

She did NOT say that this is what Zionists want or that the Jews will "digest" the land.

KFC does neither claim that the (secular) Zionists are anything but tools used in G-d's plan nor does she pretend to speak for Zionists or Zionism.

Do you honestly not see the difference between KFC's religious beliefs and the goals of people who do not even share her faith???

KFC _believes_ that G-d's goal is X.

The Arab Nazis _accuse_ Zionists of having the goal X.

NEITHER means that Zionists actually aspire X.

It _might_ means that the Zionists are a tool in G-d's plan and that the Arab Nazis, forever fighting G-d's will, perceive the plan but don't want to associate it with the Bible (or the Qur'an, which says the same thing) and hence accuse the Jews of "expansionism".

KFC takes about the will of G-d, the Arab Nazis talk about the will of Zionists. Can you not see the difference between the will of G-d and the will of the Jewish people?

Successfully updated karma reason!

KFC, the Old Testament prophets prophecied the Messias, Emmanuel with us, Christ's First Coming...they didn't have Christ's Second Coming in mind....

In that case something must have gone wrong, since the "Messias" failed to achieve world peace, a complete return of the people of Israel to their homeland and a rebuilding of the Temple.

Congratulations, you have just invalidated Christianity!

Even the Muslims believe that Jesus will come back to finish the task.

(Isn't the second coming an integral part of Catholic belief?)

Successfully updated karma reason!

There's a point where it goes beyond merely defending yourself or your country/family. There's a point where you begin to use that noble concept as a justification for any over step, miscues, etc. Israel has gone past that a number of times in my opinion.

And you base that opinion on what? Stories people tell you about Israel? What you yourself saw? Your opinion that Israel cannot possibly be innocent?

You are wrong. The IDF goes to more extreme lengths than any other army in the world to avoid civilian casualties and has had much better results than any other army in the world.

The continuing accusations are purely based on anti-Semitism.

You did NOT wake up one morning and suddenly get an objective insight into the matter. You did not see what you claim the Israelis have done.

What's the more reasonable/rational concept: Israel is being conspired against by the vast majority of the world so that they're always wrong and so on, or just maybe they have made mistakes and need to own up to them.

So you are arguing that anti-Semitism doesn't exist because it isn't reasonable to assume that it does?

The FACTS state plainly that in the wars Israel fights there were fewer civilian deaths (and fewer total deaths) than in all other wars fought in the region, and fewer civilian deaths than in all other wars fought that had the same number of total deaths.

So even if it sounds unreasonable to you, if the vast majority of the world decides that despite the facts, Israel is still guilty of horrible crimes, there is something wrong in the world.

(Does it sound reasonable and rational to you that the world discusses Israel's "crimes" every day while at the same time those who accuse Israel of genocide actually do murder hundreds of thousands of people in Darfur?)

Note that it is not "mistakes" that Israel is accused of. The "report" accuses Israel of DELIBERATELY shooting at civilians, as if the IDF had nothing better to do.

It's the usual strategy: Accuse Israel of the most heinous crimes. Then argue that since Israel "isn't perfect" and "makes mistakes", Israel has obviously committed those crimes. Apparently the only defence Israel could possibly bring up to defend herself is proven perfection and a complete and total and verified ability to avoid any and all mistakes.

The usual procedure (when the accused isn't Israel), of course, is to PROVE that war crimes were committed by the party, not to stipulate that they were and then demand proof of the accused's perfection as the only acceptable defence against the charges.

I totally accept that the IDF shoots more civilians than necessary to reach its military goals. I totally accept that the IDF and Israel make mistakes, lots of them.

I do NOT accept that the IDF and Israel make more mistakes than everybody else, because the numbers simply prove the opposite.

And I do NOT accept that those mistakes constitute "deliberate murder" or some other war crime.

Making anecdotal evidence for mistakes into proof for a crime requires more prejudice than I can muster against anyone.

Defense or not....no one, not even Israel, is perfect.

That is a strawman. It is perfectly possible for an imperfect being to be innocent.

War crime definitions take into account imperfection.

What's on trial everywhere is not Israel's perfectness, but Israel's innocence.

I put it to you that Israel is not perfect, but perfectly innocent of the many crimes people keep accusing the country of.

I put it to you, even, that while you are not perfect, you are, as far as I know, innocent of murder. And if anybody asks me if you are guilty of murder, I will tell them that I do not believe that you are because I have seen no evidence of the crime.

And if they tell me that you are guilty of murder because you are not perfect, I will tell them that I do not believe that perfection and innocence are the same thing and that I believe that imperfect beings can still be innocent; and that my dislike for you personally does not suggest to me that your imperfection proves your guilt.

I know I cannot expect you to afford Israel the same consideration. You go with the flow.

And yeah yeah, call me anti-semitic all you want; honestly, I don't give a fuck. I know who I am and am not, and your opinion doesn't matter on that topic.

I don't think you know.

I do not believe that you are an anti-Semite because you are evil, like the "Stormfront" guys. I do, however, find that you have internalised the common anti-Semitism of the west, the weird belief that somehow the Jewish state must be guilty of _something_, that in the case of Israel anything but perfection is a crime and that Israel is either perfect or guilty of war crimes.

Do you think, if the stories about Israel were true, "Palestinians" would WANT to continue fighting, would DEMAND a "right to return" to the place where all those horrible murderers now live?

Did it ever even enter your mind that perhaps Israel, while being imperfect like all other human-made states, might be innocent and that, perhaps, anti-Semitism and centuries of lies about Jewish crimes did not suddenly end in your generation but still shape public (and your) opinion?

I can see that you at least never thought about the real implications of imperfection. You actually did and perhaps still do think that if Israel is not perfect, Israel must be guilty of crimes. The possibility that Israel could be imperfect yet innocent you ruled out. And THAT is my problem with you.

Successfully updated karma reason!

KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

+93

(Isn't the second coming an integral part of Catholic belief?)

not really because they are being led to believe (really) that they are in place of God on earth. Why ruin a good thing? That's why RC don't believe they can know they are being saved and really don't talk about the second coming of Christ at all or the rapture that will precede it. It's really not that important. They even believe we are in the Millennium right now (and have been since Christ departed) when that is totally not even biblical. In other words they are all wrapped up and very prideful of their RCC and are living high and mighty as "God"s Holy Church when it's not even close to the truth.

Don't get me wrong the RCC does some good things when it comes to standing up for their beliefs in the face of opposition and they have some very good works based ministries. Also I think they have a reverence for God that is lacking in many Protestant churches. I just believe that they have put themselves up high and lifted up over and above everyone else. I have never seen pride in religion like I've seen in the RCC's people. I first began to notice this when I was 15. I see that same Catholic pride in Lula that I've seen in many over the years and God hates pride more than anything else.

KFC, the Old Testament prophets prophecied the Messias, Emmanuel with us, Christ's First Coming...they didn't have Christ's Second Coming in mind....

If you take all the OT prophecies concerning Christ's coming you will see a mixture of both first and second comings. The Prophets ONLY saw one coming but that doesn't mean they saw his "first" coming. They just saw HE was coming period as promised. The prophecies spoke of both a suffering servant and a conquering Messiah. A lion and a lamb. When he came the first time (as a meek lamb) they ignored the suffering servant part of the prophecies because they wanted a King who would throw off the yoke of Roman oppression. He did not satisfy their nationalistic hope of deliverance so they dismissed Him.

so....if anything...you've got it backwards...meaning they really saw his second coming NOT his first. They were not interested in the suffering Messiah only the Conquering One.

If you look at John Chap 6 after the feeding of the 5,000 men, (plus women and children) you'd see they were getting ready to seize him to make him their king but he slipped away knowing their thoughts. If you also notice, he MADE his disciples get in a boat to remove them from this crowd so they wouldn't get caught up in the hysteria. The timing was just before the Passover, a celebration of the deliverance from bondage to Egypt and when the Zionists were highly charged wanting also to be delivered from Rome. But the timing wasn't right for God. He will come in the fullness of time. I believe we are close.

KFC said that G-d gave all that land to Abraham and his descendants and that they will eventually rule over it when the Messiah comes. She believes that because the Bible says it will happen.

That's exactly right. All in a nutshell.

Successfully updated karma reason!

That's exactly right. All in a nutshell.

Now, tha part I am not getting, quite removed and independent from the question whether this is G-d's will or not, is why Lula speaks of Jewish or Zionist control of all the land desbribed as something wrong or evil.

Why is it worse than Turkish rule?

Why is it worse than British and French rule?

And why would it be worse than current Arab rule over the area?

Looking at the map, I see the land from Nile to Euphrates (and this has nothing to do with my beliefs or Zionist demands) and I observe that Arab rule has brought Egypt several wars with Israel, all of which ended in Egypt's defeat. While Arab rule over Syria has not done much to protect the rights of the native Aramaeans and Kurds, and Arab rule over Iraq has done little positive for the native Assyrians and Kurds in northern Iraq.

If for some reason KFC's beliefs came true now, why would Jewish rule over the territory be worse than the wars and genocides we have seen happening there under Arab rule?

What's so immoral about Jewish rule that it must be feared and prevented at almost any cost?

Successfully updated karma reason!

KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

+93

Leauki,

check this out and tell me what you think...

http://www.zionshope.org/link_jerusalem_0910.aspx

I think he lays it all out pretty clearly

Successfully updated karma reason!

And you base that opinion on what? Stories people tell you about Israel? What you yourself saw? Your opinion that Israel cannot possibly be innocent?

What I read and research, as well as realistic expectations, etc..

You are wrong. The IDF goes to more extreme lengths than any other army in the world to avoid civilian casualties and has had much better results than any other army in the world.

My point still stands - there's a point where, even in defense, you go beyond it. It doesn't matter

The continuing accusations are purely based on anti-Semitism.

Oh of course: You don't like what Israel does? Anti-semitic. Think they could ease up more? Anti-semitic. Think that the palestinian people (not the pa/hamas) should just be left alone? Anti-semitic.

Pretty much, in your opinion, anything that is not pro-israel, etc. means that the person is anti-semitic.

Oi...the douchery goes on...

You did NOT wake up one morning and suddenly get an objective insight into the matter. You did not see what you claim the Israelis have done.

Granted, I'm as objective as a human being can be - but I try to be. That being said, neither are you/did you Leauki, I highly doubt you spend all your time keeping eyewittness tabs on what the Israeli's do. And please, don't say that you go off of what they say, that you believe 100% what their government says, because ALL governments BS people; it's all about the best PR possible.

Apparently you don't see your extreme bias, which is unfortunate.

~AJ

Successfully updated karma reason!

I don't think you know.

I do not believe that you are an anti-Semite because you are evil, like the "Stormfront" guys. I do, however, find that you have internalised the common anti-Semitism of the west, the weird belief that somehow the Jewish state must be guilty of _something_, that in the case of Israel anything but perfection is a crime and that Israel is either perfect or guilty of war crimes.

Leauki, you're being thick.

I'm aware that both Israel and Hamas/PLA are guilty of horrible things, but also noted for great things. I'm looking at this realistically, humanistically, etc. I'm simply saying, for the sake of their integrity and so on, they could tone it down a bit.

And, again...they could be guilty of what is legally defined as war crimes. They're a part of the geneva convention in fact, and are legally bound by it's words. If they are guilty, then they should face the repercussions....but only when they are. (same thing with the PLO, though they would likely fall under the world court since they didnt sign it, so far as i know)

Do you think, if the stories about Israel were true, "Palestinians" would WANT to continue fighting, would DEMAND a "right to return" to the place where all those horrible murderers now live?

Sometimes the prize is worth the price. You're saying that they don't want to? Mind rewording this?

Did it ever even enter your mind that perhaps Israel, while being imperfect like all other human-made states, might be innocent and that, perhaps, anti-Semitism and centuries of lies about Jewish crimes did not suddenly end in your generation but still shape public (and your) opinion?

I can see that you at least never thought about the real implications of imperfection. You actually did and perhaps still do think that if Israel is not perfect, Israel must be guilty of crimes. The possibility that Israel could be imperfect yet innocent you ruled out. And THAT is my problem with you.

Of course it has entered my mind, but so has it entered my mind for the Palestinian people. Unfortunately, that very thought has yet to enter your mind apparently. I realize that people are imperfect, but would you mind applying that to the Palestinians for a second?

You're more than willing to apply it to Israel, but you don't for the other side. Why? Is it your zionistic beliefs? Is it your general bias? I think it's all of the above. You cannot seem to accept that there are innocent palestinians; that, somewhere, there are people in that area who are simply trying to live. To you, they're all blind supporters of of Hamas/PLO

~AJ

Successfully updated karma reason!

KFC said that G-d gave all that land to Abraham and his descendants and that they will eventually rule over it when the Messiah comes. She believes that because the Bible says it will happen.

I must correct you...

Based upon Joshua 21, 3Kings and Nehemias, I'm the one saying that God gave all that land to Abraham and his descendants.

And besides that...the Messias, the Christ, "Emmanuel with us" has already come in the exact manner, time and place as the Old Testament prophets prophesiced He would.

Scripture teaches when Christ comes again (of which no one knows the day or the hour), it won't be as the Messias, it will as Judge ....as Judge of the living and the dead...from our judgement follows our eternal destination....Heaven or Hell.

Successfully updated karma reason!

kfc posts 75

....God....made it clear he was giving it to Abraham and to his descendants FOREVER. This was called the Abrahamic covenant and was UNconditional. ....read Genesis 15............The boundaries of this land was even given to make it very clear. Israel today, doesn't even have a quarter of that promised to them yet. It's still to come. What we are seeing today is just the beginning.

lula posts:

So, folks, here is a prime example of interpreting Scripture through the Rapturist/End-times/Zionism prism. According to KFC, God-ordained Zionist land grabs are going to continue.

lula posts #88

I believe the Zionist's crimes are sins against God so obviously they are not God's will.

I believe KFC's false Rapturist interpretation of Sacred Scripture is helping feed the fire of political Zionism.

.

kfc posts: 89

What in the world does the rapture have to do with this? ......You're attacking my belief in the rapture when it's not even the subject matter here? Every Christian I know believes in some sort of rapture because it is biblical. They may not agree on the exact terms but the rapture is biblical and has NOTHING to do with this conversation.

.........It doesn't matter because when God makes these promises he doesn't back out of them. Israel will get the land in its entirety in the future.

kfc posts 94

and...you still didn't answer my question...what does the rapture have to do with all of this?

kfc posts 98 I'm just reading the scriptures and can see plainly that God has a plan not only for the people but the land as well.

Ezekiel and Zechariah. Both teach that Israel will possess their own land first when the nations come up against it. There's no history to back them up...as of yet. But we could be fast approaching the time when prophecy meets up with us and we will see history in the making like we did in 1948.

"Rapturism" is a Protestant end-times (eschatological) belief system that was developed by an Anglican preacher, John Nelson Darby, in the 1800s.

Based on their idiosyncratic interpretations of Scripture, "Rapturists" claim it teaches that CHrist will come and take "born again believers" to Heaven while the rest of the world is plunged into horrors of apocalyptic Great Tribulation that will last 7 or 3 1/2 years (depending on the Rapturist's interpretation of Scripture) ending with the defeat of antichrist, then the Millennium will begin, the 1,000 year earthly reign of Christ ruling in Isreal for the benefit of Jews.

KFC and other Evangelical Zionists/Millleniallists believe the modern state of Isreal has a Divine right to the whole land of Palestine, and even more, based on so-called unfulfilled promises in Genesis. According to them, God is behind re-establishing Isreal in all the biblical land for the millennial reign of Christ.

The Rapture scheme of endtime events is a big lie...because it posits 2 or more judgments as well as a two-stage Second Coming of Christ. That's unBiblical.

The Millenillium scheme of endtime events is a big lie because it teaches that Christ the Lord, before the Final Judgment, will come and physically rule over the world. That's unBiblical.

The whole Rapturist/Evangelical/Zionist campaign is based on one big lie...that Almighty God still owes modern day Jews "all the land". That's unBiblical.

Will any of you be surprised to learn that Darby's Raptrurism was brought to the US by Cyrus I. Scofield who published the Scofield Reference Bible? Turns out his notes always explained these passages from a Rapturist viewpoint. And guess what? Surprise, surprise! Scofield interpretated God's promises to Abraham as per Genesis 12-22 as applying to a future national and spiritual restoration of all Isreal.

kfc posts:

I've never called myself a Zionist nor am I interested in doing so. Lula seems to need titles. I'm a biblicist or evangelical Christian. The bible is all I need. I feel that I'm being objective here especially in this discussion.

Other Protestants like John MacArthur who wrote MacArthur Study Bible have reiterated Scofield's notes. And while KFC says the Bible is all she needs, her interpretation of Genesis 12-22 as well as these Rapturist/Zionists/Milleniallist teachings come from Darby down to MacArthur through Protestant oral tradition.

Successfully updated karma reason!

kfc posts 98 I'm just reading the scriptures and can see plainly that God has a plan not only for the people but the land as well.

Yes, God has a plan for all humanity....God does not have a plan for the land....God is interested in the salvation of souls...including Jews who do not, but must accept Christ as the Emmanuel with us to gain entrance into Heaven.

The hour is late.....Now is the time for true conversion....for we don't know the day or the hour in which Christ will come again...this time in Judgment and not to rule for 1,000 years.

Successfully updated karma reason!

KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

+93

The whole Rapturist/Evangelical/Zionist campaign is based on one big lie...that Almighty God still owes modern day Jews "all the land". That's unBiblical.

the only one doing the lying here is you. I can, sit down and show you point blank how wrong you are by using the book of Judges and Ezekiel to show you exactly but it would take too much time and space here and would infringe on Leauki's blog to do so.

"Rapturism" is a Protestant end-times (eschatological) belief system that was developed by an Anglican preacher, John Nelson Darby, in the 1800s.

No, Nelson Darby came up with the whole pre-trib rapture NOT THE RAPTURE itself. The rapture is in scripture and comes from the Latin word "rapare" That's where we get our English word rapture from. You can see the rapture in a couple of places but the best is 1 Thess 4:16-17. Paul came up with it WAY before Darby wrote of it.

So AGAIN, Darby did NOT come up with the Rapture but the Pre-trib rapture WHICH I DONT acribe to. So now what? You're spreading lies now Lula.

Rapturist/Zionists/Milleniallist teachings come from Darby down to MacArthur through Protestant oral tradition.

HOW MANY TIMES TO I HAVE TO TELL YOU THERE IS NO PROTESTANT ORAL TRADITION?

I've explained it, told you so but you REFUSE to listen. This is getting very tiresome Lula. You keep repeating yourself EVEN tho I've told you otherwise. You're reading too many Catholic apologists telling you what I believe INSTEAD of believing ME who should know what I believe. Good Grief!

Rapturist/Zionists/Milleniallist teachings come from Darby down to MacArthur through Protestant oral tradition.

The rapture has NOTHING to do with what we're talking about.

I just have to say one more time Lula...you need to put down those very twisted RCC apologist books and pick up the bible and read it. You're being deceived by them. I suggest with this topic you go and read 1 Thess 4:16-17 and the book of Judges starting with Chapt 1.

Oh, and you might want to read Deut 7:1-7 as well.

Successfully updated karma reason!

lula posts:

But taking over and confiscating other people's land by a varity of "legal devices" is official sanctioned theft.

Last I knew of International Law, it's illegal for a nation to occupy territorty seized in war to plant its citizens in the occupied land, build fences, plant housing developments. Furthermore, according to the Geneva Convention, the "occupying" party is responsible for the welfare of the civil masses in the occupied areas. Has Isreal done this burden?

leauki posts:

Really? Please do find me these "laws".

I wonder why they apply to Israel but didn't seem to stop the US, Poland, Russia, and North-Vietnam; all countries who won land in war, annexed it, and allowed people to settle there.

(I also wasn't aware of the fact that Jordan and Egypt, when they controlled the West-Bank and Gaza constructed no buildings in the area.)

I am particularly curious which law prohibits the building of fences and walls in occupied territory, because that would totally criminalise the US who did build fences and walls in occupied West-Berlin. (I know, I had an ID card to pass through the gates into the special zones.)

Seems to me like there are a lot of "law" that apply to Israel only.

Luckily. assuming your knowledge of "international law" is correct, this will end the discussion. Because if annexing land in war is illegal, all annexations of Israel since the Jews lost it would be illegal, hence the land is still Jewish. I have no problem with that view. It's not the argument I usually use to defend Israel, but if you insist...

The Zionists "bought" all the land that comprises Isreal you say? If the land was legally bought that means that same land was legally sold.....Were these sales accepted accepted by the original owners of the land?

Why did we used to hear so often that the lands were "occupied territories"? "Occupied"? That carries legal implications under the Geneva convention doesn't it?

If the land was legally and rightfully "bought" as you claim, why then are there millions of Palestinaian refugees scattered about the Middle East? Why is this vicious struggle going on if the land was legally and rightfully "bought"?

The Palestinian Arab owned lands post 1967 were seized (not bought)..didn't Isreal claim the lands were "abandoned" by the owners before the military attack of the IDF forces and then the owners were denied the the right to return to their homes, businesses and farms?

This kind of confiscaton is illegal under international law, the Geneva Conventions, the international court of justice, and is in defiance of UN resolutions which calls for restoration of original ownership. Hasn't the Ha'aretz pointed out the questionable nature of the Jewish "title" to these lands? But who cares? Isreal claims "legal" devices as military need, seizure for contrived punishments, etc. and Isreal has military might and US backing, so...what's the big deal!

Besides that...if you're a Palestinian who resists the Zionist state, then he is an automatic "terrorist" or "gunman".. anyone else who criticizes Isreal, Jews, or Zionism is an anti-Semitic, you know that's become the popular charge lately, even on these pages.

Back in 2004, the international court of justice, the UN and the world communities, held that the land grabbing fence or barrier wall as well as the settlements were illegal. Knowing the court and the UN have no real enforcement powers, this was ignored by Isreal (and the Bush administration for that matter!).

Successfully updated karma reason!

lula posts:

Based on their idiosyncratic interpretations of Scripture, "Rapturists" claim it teaches that CHrist will come and take "born again believers" to Heaven while the rest of the world is plunged into horrors of apocalyptic Great Tribulation that will last 7 or 3 1/2 years (depending on the Rapturist's interpretation of Scripture) ending with the defeat of antichrist, then the Millennium will begin, the 1,000 year earthly reign of Christ ruling in Isreal for the benefit of Jews.

KFC and other Evangelical Zionists/Millleniallists believe the modern state of Isreal has a Divine right to the whole land of Palestine, and even more, based on so-called unfulfilled promises in Genesis. According to them, God is behind re-establishing Isreal in all the biblical land for the millennial reign of Christ.

The Rapture scheme of endtime events is a big lie...because it posits 2 or more judgments as well as a two-stage Second Coming of Christ. That's unBiblical.

The Millenillium scheme of endtime events is a big lie because it teaches that Christ the Lord, before the Final Judgment, will come and physically rule over the world. That's unBiblical.

The whole Rapturist/Evangelical/Zionist campaign is based on one big lie...that Almighty God still owes modern day Jews "all the land". That's unBiblical.

Will any of you be surprised to learn that Darby's Raptrurism was brought to the US by Cyrus I. Scofield who published the Scofield Reference Bible? Turns out his notes always explained these passages from a Rapturist viewpoint. And guess what? Surprise, surprise! Scofield interpretated God's promises to Abraham as per Genesis 12-22 as applying to a future national and spiritual restoration of all Isreal.

kfc posts:

The rapture has NOTHING to do with what we're talking about.

Rapturism eschatology.......Millennialism eschatology...... Evangelical Zionism......all the dots are connected, quite well...it's all based on mis-interpretation and misapplication of Sacred Scripture...and the world is on the brink of WWIII becasue some people claim Scripture is behind and supports their political machinations.

Do you know that back in 2006, aware that Fundamentalists and Christian Zionists advocate political and military strategies they hope will bring on the "rapture", 4 of Jerusalem's Christian leaders issued a strongly worded public statement condemning Christian Zionism?

The Statement, "The Jerusalem Declaration of Christian Zionism", declares:

"Christian Zionism is a modern theological and political movement that embraces the most extreme ideological positions of Zionism, thereby becoming detrimental to a just peace within Palestine and Isreal. The Christian Zionist program provides a world view where the Gospel is identified with the ideology of empire, colonialism and militarism. In its extreme form, it places emphasis on apocalyptic events leading to the end of history rather than living Christ's love and justice today.

We categorically reject Christian Zionist doctrines as false teaching that corrupts the biblical message of love, justice and reconciliation. We further reject the contemporary alliance of Christian Zionist leaders and organizatons with elements in the governments of Isreal and the United States that are presently imposing their unilateral pre-emptive borders and domination over Palestine. This inevitably leads to unending cycles of violence that undermine the security of all peoples in the Mideast and the rest of the world.

We reject the teachings of Christian Zionism that facilitate and support these policies as they advance racial exclusivity and perpetual war rather than the Gospel of universal love, redemption, and reconciliation taught by Jesus Christ. Rather than condemn the world to doom of Armageddon, we call upon everyone to liberate themselves from the ideologies of militarism and occupation. Instead, let them pursue the healing of the nations!

We call upon Christians in churches on every continent to pray for the Palestinian and Isreali people, both of whom are sufferieng as victims of occupation and militarism. These discrimitative actions are turning Palestine into impoverished ghettos surrounded by exclusinve Isreali settlements. The establishment of the illegal settlements and the construction of the separation wall on confiscated Palestinian land undermine the vialibility of a Palestinian state as well as peace and security in the entire region.

We call upon all the churches that remain silent, to break their silence, and speak for reconciliation with justice in the Holy Land. Therefore we commit ourselves to the following principles as an alternative way:

We affirm that all people are created in the image of God. In turn, they are called to honor the dignity of every human being and to respect their inalienable rights. We affirm that Isrealis and Palestinians are capable of living together within peace, justice and security. We affirm that Palestinians are one people, both Muslim and Christian. We reject all attempts to subvert and fragment their unity. We call upon all people to reject the narrow worldview of Christian Zionism and other ideologies that privilege one people at the expense of others.

We are committed to nonviolent resistence as the most effective means to end the illegal occupaton in order to attain a just and lasting peace. With urgency we warn that Christian Zionism and its alliances are justifying colonization, apartheid, and empire-building.

God demands that justice be done. No enduring peace, security, or reconciliation is possible without the foundation of justice. The demands of justice will not disappear. The struggle for justice must be pursued diligently and persistently but nonviolently.

"What does the Lord require of you, to act justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God." (Micah 6:8)

This is where we take our stand. We stand for justice. We can do no other. Justice alone guarantees a peace that will lead to reconciliation with a life of security and prosperity for all the peoples of our Land. By standing on the side of justice, we open ourselves to the work of peace - and working for peace makes us children of God. "God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation." (2 Cor 5:19)

His Beattitude Patriarch Michel Sabbah Latin Patriarchate, Jerusalem Archbishop Swerios Malki Mourad, Syrian Orthodox Patriarchate, Jerusalem Bishop Riah Abu El-Assal, Episcopal Church of Jerusalem and the Middle East Bishop Munib Younan, Evangelical Lutheran Church in Jordan and the Holy Land

August 22, 2006

Successfully updated karma reason!

KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

+93

Lula FYI I just spelled the whole thing out on my blogsite because it's quite lengthy to put here explaining the whole thing in detail to show you how you don't have a grasp of the situation like you think you do. Maybe...I'm not holding my breath...but just maybe you'll see it if put down in black and white from another source other than your RCC books.

Go here: http://kfc.joeuser.com/article/367616/Israels_Land_People_Linked_Forever

Successfully updated karma reason!

leauki writes:

"We shall not enter Palestine with its soil covered in sand, we shall enter it with its soil saturated in blood"

"The existence of Israel has continued too long. We welcome the Israeli aggression. We welcome the battle we have long awaited. The peak hour has come. The battle has come in which we shall destroy Israel."

“All Egypt is now prepared to plunge into total war which will put an end to Israel”

“The Zionist barrack in Palestine is about to collapse and be destroyed. Every one of the hundred million Arabs has been living for the past nineteen years on one hope – to live to see the day Israel is liquidated…There is no life, no peace nor hope for the gangs of Zionism to remain in the occupied land.”

“As of today, there no longer exists an international emergency force to protect Israel….The sole method we shall apply against Israel is a total war which will result in the extermination of Zionist existence”.

“Our forces are now entirely ready not only to repulse any aggression, but to initiate the act ourselves, and to explode the Zionist presence in the Arab homeland of Palestine. The Syrian army, with its finger on the trigger, is united. I believe that the time has come to begin a battle of anihilation.”

"We want a full scale, popular war of liberation… to destroy the Zionist enemy"

“We will not accept any…coexistence with Israel.…Today the issue is not the establishment of peace between the Arab states and Israel….The war with Israel is in effect since 1948.”

“The existence of Israel is an error which must be rectified. This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear - to wipe Israel off the map”

“Those [Israelis] who survive will remain in Palestine. I estimate that none of them will survive.”

"Germany and Italy recognize the right of the Arab countries to solve the question of the Jewish elements, which exist in Palestine and in the other Arab countries, as required by the national and ethnic interests of the Arabs, and as the Jewish question was solved in Germany and Italy."

"To the Grand Mufti: The National Socialist movement of Greater Germany has, since its inception, inscribed upon its flag the fight against the world Jewry. It has therefore followed with particular sympathy the struggle of freedom-loving Arabs, especially in Palestine, against Jewish interlopers. In the recognition of this enemy and of the common struggle against it lies the firm foundation of the natural alliance that exists between the National Socialist Greater Germany and the freedom-loving Muslims of the whole world. In this spirit I am sending you on the anniversary of the infamous Balfour declaration my hearty greetings and wishes for the successful pursuit of your struggle until the final victory."

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

kfc posts: 4

All those quotes you put up Leauki have biblical meaning to them. It's been all foretold that this would happen when Israel went into their own land in the "latter days."

kfc posts:

Too bad Obama doesn't read the bible since he says he's a Christian! He would/should have reservations against going against Israel if he knew better. The biblical Christians understand this and this is why they are waiting with expectation right now all across the world.

I've never called myself a Zionist nor am I interested in doing so..... I'm a biblicist or evangelical Christian. The bible is all I need. I feel that I'm being objective here especially in this discussion. ......Leauki you are one who has a heart for the Nation as a Jew and are biased (and rightly so) because of your heritage. I'm just reading the scriptures and can see plainly that God has a plan not only for the people but the land as well. ....

The land (Israel) and the people (Jews) have always been attached. .....

It's quite clear that there is a purpose for the land and for the people in the latter days as ithe prophets say. If not, the Jews wouldn't even be in their land today as they are and we wouldn't be having this discussion. It's not a coincidence that Israel became a nation in 1948. We are very close to something happening. Something is going to bust wide open and I believe it's very soon.

..... Ezekiel and Zechariah. Both teach that Israel will possess their own land first when the nations come up against it. There's no history to back them up...as of yet. But we could be fast approaching the time when prophecy meets up with us and we will see history in the making like we did in 1948.

Re: the highlighted...you are not being objective...Your sentiments and interpretation of Scripture are through your Rapturist/Milleniallist/Christian Zionist prism.

kfc posts:

Lula FYI I just spelled the whole thing out on my blogsite because it's quite lengthy to put here explaining the whole thing in detail to show you how you don't have a grasp of the situation like you think you do. Maybe...I'm not holding my breath...but just maybe you'll see it if put down in black and white from another source other than your RCC books.

What I see is the world on the brink of WWIII because some people erroneously claim Scripture and Almighty God support their political machinations.

You say I don't have a grasp on the situation! I agree with "The Jerusalem Declaration of Christian Zionism". I think these four Jerusalem prelates have a very good grasp on the situation.

"Christian Zionism is a modern theological and political movement that embraces the most extreme ideological positions of Zionism, thereby becoming detrimental to a just peace within Palestine and Isreal. The Christian Zionist program provides a world view where the Gospel is identified with the ideology of empire, colonialism and militarism. In its extreme form, it places emphasis on apocalyptic events leading to the end of history rather than living Christ's love and justice today.

We categorically reject Christian Zionist doctrines as false teaching that corrupts the biblical message of love, justice and reconciliation. We further reject the contemporary alliance of Christian Zionist leaders and organizatons with elements in the governments of Isreal and the United States that are presently imposing their unilateral pre-emptive borders and domination over Palestine. This inevitably leads to unending cycles of violence that undermine the security of all peoples in the Mideast and the rest of the world.

We reject the teachings of Christian Zionism that facilitate and support these policies as they advance racial exclusivity and perpetual war rather than the Gospel of universal love, redemption, and reconciliation taught by Jesus Christ. Rather than condemn the world to doom of Armageddon, we call upon everyone to liberate themselves from the ideologies of militarism and occupation. Instead, let them pursue the healing of the nations!

We call upon Christians in churches on every continent to pray for the Palestinian and Isreali people, both of whom are sufferieng as victims of occupation and militarism. These discrimitative actions are turning Palestine into impoverished ghettos surrounded by exclusinve Isreali settlements. The establishment of the illegal settlements and the construction of the separation wall on confiscated Palestinian land undermine the vialibility of a Palestinian state as well as peace and security in the entire region.

Successfully updated karma reason!

So...does that somehow justify immorality and crimes of the war that Isreal has been raging ever since its creation by the UN?

Have you stopped beating your children?

Successfully updated karma reason!

Lula FYI I just spelled the whole thing out on my blogsite because it's quite lengthy to put here explaining the whole thing in detail to show you how you don't have a grasp of the situation like you think you do. Maybe...I'm not holding my breath...but just maybe you'll see it if put down in black and white from another source other than your RCC books.

Go here: http://kfc.joeuser.com/article/367616/Israels_Land_People_Linked_Forever

Good article!

But on a more practical level I am surprised how many people plainly do not accept that the Jewish people have to live somewhere.

It's always about the poor Arab refugees (who get more aid from the UN and western countries than any other "poor" refugees in the world). It's never about where the Jews SHOULD live, if not in "Palestine".

It's like Amos Oz said:

Out there, in the world, all the walls were covered with graffiti: Yids, go back to Palestine, so we came back to Palestine, and now the worldatlarge shouts at us: Yids, get out of Palestine.

Apparently Jews can never do the right thing. At least not if it is up to people like Lula to judge.

I wrote before about the Iraqi magazine that advocates that Jewish refugees should be allowed to return to Iraq so that Israel doesn't need more land for "settlers". But apart from that one call and Morocco's earlier call, no Arab country ever worried about the Jewish refugees. And neither Iraq nor Morocco can really guarantee the safety of any Jews anyway.

But all of this misses the point.

Israel has never fought a war unless she was attacked.

If the fact that Israel survived several wars meant to destroy the country is a moral dilemma for some people, those people ought to get some morals. And if it interferes with your religion that the Jews survived, get a new god!

Successfully updated karma reason!

We call upon Christians in churches on every continent to pray for the Palestinian and Isreali people, both of whom are sufferieng as victims of occupation and militarism. These discrimitative actions are turning Palestine into impoverished ghettos surrounded by exclusinve Isreali settlements. The establishment of the illegal settlements and the construction of the separation wall on confiscated Palestinian land undermine the vialibility of a Palestinian state as well as peace and security in the entire region.

You are praying for anti-Semitism. G-d probably won't listen.

The "Palestinian" "ghettos" have a higher standard of living than Egypt.

"Settlements" are NOT illegal just because Jews live in them.

And the border fence has done more for peace than any of your prayers. You can actually see the numbers of attacks drop since the barrier stood.

As long as people like you refer to Jewish villages as "settlements" or make any distinction whatsoever because someone is Jewish, there will be a conflict. It's not between Arabs and Jews, it's between people like you and modern man.

Successfully updated karma reason!

to live somewhere.

So why don't they live in Europe, Britain, and America?

We have tried Europe. That didn't work too well.

America and the British Empire worked out well, but it only solves half the problem.

What do we do with middle-eastern Jews?

There are a few good options:

1. We leave them in their Arab home countries, ruled by an Arab majority (or in the case of Morocco, an Arab minority). We plainly assume that the same governments who murder Africans and gas Kurds will not touch Jews.

2. We deport them to America. While the world cries bloody murder when a "Palestinian" has to live 100 miles from his place of birth where people speak the same language and eat the same food, nobody would have a problem with moving a few million Jews into a completely foreign country.

3. We create a country for them where they can be a majority and live in peace with Arab citizens of the same country. This was tried and didn't work because the Arab citizens and the other Arab countries did not want to live in peace.

4. We create a country for them where they fight back when attacked. This works.

So let's do number 4!

Successfully updated karma reason!

KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

+93

Re: the highlighted...you are not being objective...Your sentiments and interpretation of Scripture are through your Rapturist/Milleniallist/Christian Zionist prism.

again...with the attacks Lula. I've never ever labeled myself as you have labeled me here. I believe in the Rapure, yes, but it's not my whole belief system. I believe in the future Millennium as scripture predicts but again, it's only part and parcel of what I believe in. I'm not a "Zionist" and I've told you that. Again, you choose to attack because it's your MO.

I saw this quote this week and thought it worthy of thought:

"A RELIGIOUS Spirit is one who uses MY WORD to execute his own will."

"A WORSHIPFUL Spirit is one who uses MY WORD to execute God's own will."

We should be asking ourselves on a daily basis, is this MY WILL or GOD'S WILL?

Successfully updated karma reason!

again...with the attacks Lula. I've never ever labeled myself as you have labeled me here. I believe in the Rapure, yes, but it's not my whole belief system. I believe in the future Millennium as scripture predicts but again, it's only part and parcel of what I believe in. I'm not a "Zionist" and I've told you that. Again, you choose to attack because it's your MO.

Zionism is a Jewish movement.

KFC is neither a Jew, nor is she moving.

I think it is safe to say that KFC is not a Zionist.

She is, however, a Christian supporter of Zionism, if I may say so. Part of it is belief in Biblical prophecy. Part of it is the belief, independent of but helped by Christianity, that even Jews should be allowed to live. And part of it is probably pragmatism: Jerusalem is her holy city too, and when the Christian holy sites are under Jewish rule, they are safe and can be visited.

(Just imagine the difficulties if Mecca were the holy city of Christianity!)

There are Muslim supporters of Zionism as well. Their thinking is similar to KFC's. They also believe in prophecy, this time Qur'anic prophecy, which also says that the land of Israel was given by G-d to the children of Israel. They are also philo-Semitic. And many are pragmatic as well, simply preferring secular governments because it makes faith possible. (When a government forces you to believe in a god, how can you really believe in that god?)

There are arguably some Muslim Zionists (as opposed to Muslim supporters of Zionism). Those would be the Bedouins and Druze who allied with the Jews and built the state of Israel. They are too often forgotten, even in Israel.

I saw this quote this week and thought it worthy of thought:

"A RELIGIOUS Spirit is one who uses MY WORD to execute his own will."

"A WORSHIPFUL Spirit is one who uses MY WORD to execute God's own will."

We should be asking ourselves on a daily basis, is this MY WILL or GOD'S WILL?

That is a truly excellent quote!

Successfully updated karma reason!