I think it likely that the Jewish leadership of then was whoever was approved by the Romans.

kfc posts:

Just for clarity, here are the passages of Genesis 15 that you are referring to:

6 Abram believed God, and it was reputed to him unto justice. 7 And he said to him: I am the Lord who brought thee out from Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land, and that thou mightest possess it. 8 But he said: Lord God, whereby may I know that I shall possess it? ..... 13 And it was said unto him: Know thou beforehand that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land not their own, and they shall bring them under bondage, and afflict them four hundred years. 14 But I will judge the nation which they shall serve, and after this they shall come out with great substance. 15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace, and be buried in a good old age.

16 But in the fourth generation they shall return hither: for as yet the iniquities of the Amorrhites are not at the full until this present time. 17 And when the sun was set, there arose a dark mist, and there appeared a smoking furnace and a lamp of fire passing between those divisions. 18 That day God made a covenant with Abram, saying: To thy seed will I give this land, from the river of Egypt even to the great river Euphrates. 19 The Cineans and Cenezites, the Cedmonites, 20 And the Hethites, and the Pherezites, the Raphaim also,

First, you are confusing the Abrahamic covenants.

You say that God made it clear He was giving it (the land as described here in Genesis 15) to Abraham and to his descendants FOREVER. But your assertion isn't true. The covenant God made with Abraham of the giving of this particular land as outlined in verses 16-20 was NOT FOREVER. Note: that nowhere does it say that the land would be given or possessed by Abraham's "seed" forever. 

 Second,

This Covenant of the giving of the land has already been long fulfilled.

Almighty God has already kept His promise to Abraham and to his seed of giving the land.  Scripture is clear the promises of Genesis 15:18-20 regarding that particular covenant concerning the aquisition of the promised land were completely fulfilled.

The Lord God Himself said He fulfilled them....read Joshua 21:43-45; 1Kings 8:56; and Nehemias 9:7-8. It's right there....they all say the Lord God fulfilled His promise. These 3 passages cover a time span of about 1,000 years. 

Joshua 21: 41-43 ; the KJV 21:43-45, "And the LORD GOD gave to Isreal all the land that he had sworn to give to their fathers; and they possessed it and dwelt in it. And He gave them peace from all nations round about; and none of their enemies durst stand against them, but were brought under their dominion. 43 Not so much as one word, which He had promised to perform unto them, was made void, but all came to pass."

3Kings 8:56, "Blessed by the LORD , who hath given rest to His people Israel, according to all that He had promised: there hath not failed so much as one word of all the good things that He promised through His servant Moses."

2Esdras, alias Nehemias 9:7-8, "Thou, O LORD GOD, art He who choseth Abram, and broughtest him forth out of the fire of the Chaldeans, and gavest him the name of Abraham. 8 And thou didst find his heart faithful before thee: and thou madest a covenant with him, to give him the land of Canaanite, of the Hethite, and of the Amorrhite, and of the Pherezite, and of the Jesubite, and of the Gerzetite, to give it to his seed: and thou hast fulfilled thy words because thou art just."

Deut. 9:5-6 also reveals that it was fulfilled becasue of the oath God made to Abraham, despite the wickedness of the Jews.

"For it is not for thy justices, and the uprightness of thy heart that thou shalt go to possess their lands: but becasue they have done wickedly, they are destroyed at thy coming in: and that the LORD might accomplish his word, which he promised by oath to thy fathers Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. 6 Know therefore that the LORD thy God giveth thee not this excellent land in possession for thy justices, for thou art a very stiff necked people."

And we know the rest of the story....becasue of their continued disobedience, little by little God took the land away until it was completely decimated by the Roman Army led by Titus in 70AD. By that time God had had enough with the unfaithful, revolutionary Jews who preferring Barabbas over Christ told Pilate that the Jews had no king but Ceasar. Check history...Jthe zealot ews who refused to accept Christ ended up with the Talmud as their "book"....and from it, Messianic political Zionism was born.

These passages totally negate your foolish notion that Genesis 15:18-21 was fulfilled by God in the land known as the modern Zionist enterprise of Isreal.

kfc posts:

This is foolish Fundamentalist Zionism talk.

Christians are to be loyal to the Gospel. The only theological mandate with the Jews is the one found in the Acts of the Apostles when St.Peter addresses the men of Jerusalem at the wake of the First Christian Pentecost Day,

22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you, by miracles, and wonders, and signs, which God did by him, in the midst of you, as you also know: This man, who was put into your power by the deliberate intention and foreknowledge of God, you took and had crucified by men outside the Law. You killed Him, but God raised Him to life.....For this reason the whole house of Isreal can be certain that God has made this Jesus whom you have crucified both Lord and Christ." Acts. 2:22-23

When St.Peter said this the Jews were "cut to the heart" and asked him and the Apostles what must we do?

St.Peter answered, "You must repent and everyone of you must be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins and you will receive the Holy Spirit. The promise that was made to you and to your children and for all those who are far away, for all those whom the Lord God will call unto Himself."  Peter went on and told the Jews to "save themselves from this perverse generation."

The Jews reacted about 3,000 were added that day.

Leauki posts:

Leauki,

On the contrary, my comments in post 79 clearly show that I believe God's Word that God kept His promise of land to Abraham's seed. God said so in Joshua 21:43-45; 1Kings 8:56 and Nehemias 9:7-8.

I wrote:

This Covenant of the giving of the land has already been long fulfilled.

Almighty God has already kept His promise to Abraham and to his seed of giving the land.  Scripture is clear the promises of Genesis 15:18-20 regarding that particular covenant concerning the aquisition of the promised land were completely fulfilled.

The Lord God Himself said He fulfilled them....read Joshua 21:43-45; 1Kings 8:56; and Nehemias 9:7-8. It's right there....they all say the Lord God fulfilled His promise. These 3 passages cover a time span of about 1,000 years. 

Do you have _any_ proof whatsoever for your statements about what the Zionists have done and what the Zionists want to do?

So what exactly is this "Zionist enterprise"? What has Israel done?

The "real plight" of a "people" that has a higher standard of living than Egyptians and who would be rich and live in peace if only they would stop their attacks is not bothering me much.

Israel has a lot of power and might but doesn't use it. If Israel did what it could do, Gaza would be glass.

KFC has said what she believes G-d will ultimately do with Israel. KFC's beliefs do not constitute the wants of Zionists, who are merely tools in G-d's hands.

If you believe that G-d's will is the Zionist crime, I do not understand you.

If you do not believe what KFC believes, how does that mean that what KFC believes is what Zionists want?

Your religious source has been decisions made by church committees.

KFC uses the Bible. You don't. This has been obvious to me and I share neither her nor your faith. Nevertheless, I have to acknowledge that KFC backs up her statements with the Bible. You don't.

Israel does indeed not control even a quarter of the land promised by G-d to Abraham and his decendants. But that doesn't mean that Zionists demand or aspire to control all that land. It's is simply a statement of fact. And it is perhaps KFC's belief that G-d will eventually increase the size of Israel to cover all that land. It's still not Zionist position. It's just what will happen if KFC turns out to be correct.

I don't need a religious source to argue that Middle-Eastern Jews have to live SOMEWHERE, that Middle-Eastern Jews are, like all minorities in the Middle-East, targets of Arab nationalists, that the Jews BOUGHT (not stole) the land they live on and won more land in wars they didn't want or start, that Hebrew is a Canaanite language related to Phoenician and that Jews are the native people of southern Canaan, related to the Lebanese (Phoenicians).

I also don't need a religious source to point out that the majority of the Middle-East and North-Africa had been handed over to Arab control and that this has not done a lot for the local populations, especially those who aren't Arab.

And I don't need a religious source to support ALL minorities in the Middle-East and North-Africa, including Jews.

If you doubt any of these or are against them, you can surely find a non-religious source for why something I said is wrong.

leauki posts:

Don't confuse the Abrahamic convenants.

Genesis 15 says that specific lands would be given...nothing there about given forever and nothing there stating the land would be possessed by Abraham's seed forever.

no it hasn't.  The land described with specific boundaries in Gen 15 has not been fulfilled.  I notice you put down scriptures but you ignored 1 Kings 4:21 which states:

"And Solomon reigned over all kingdoms from the river unto the land of the Philistines and unto the border of Egypt....

notice anything? 

Solomon reigned over ALMOST all the territory promised to Abraham the most land they ever controlled.   Compare back to Gen 15 and observe that the RIVER of Egypt (Nile) there and the BORDER of Egypt here are NOT the same.  They never had control of Egypt but we can see that it was promised to Abraham back in Gen 15.  And...the river Euphrates is found in Iraq and we know that they don't control that today do they?  But they will...and will forever. 

well it was GIVEN by God.  Soooooo God takes it back?  Takes his unconditional promise back?  He said Abraham's seed would INHERIT this land.  Did they give it away or give it back?  Can they even do that? 

Go over to 17:8 (two chapters later) and read this:

"And I will give to you and to your seed after thee the land wherein you are a stranger, ALL the land of Canaan for an EVERLASTING possession; and I will be their God." 

What does everlasting mean to you?  or how about go two chapters the other way and read this:

"For all the land which you see, to you will I give it and to your seed FOREVER.  Gen 13:15 

does FOREVER here do?   Wait.  You just said that God doesn't give land forever.  Hmmm that's not what scriptures say. 

you keep saying this...at least three times just on this one page alone.  What in the world does the rapture have to do with this?  This is nothing but an attack on me Lula when you can't back up your belief system thoroughly.   You're attacking my belief in the rapture when it's not even the subject matter here?   Every Christian I know believes in some sort of rapture because it is biblical.  They may not agree on the exact terms but the rapture is biblical and has NOTHING to do with this conversation. 

Everytime I back up my statements up with scripture you go on the attack because...it goes against the belief system of the RCC which is very anti-semetic and begrudges Israel and her inheritance.  It doesn't matter because when God makes these promises he doesn't back out of them.  Israel will get the land in its entirety in the future. 

Huh, interesting stuff Lula. That being said, I strongly believe that this, like most things, comes down to perception/beliefs and the varying degrees that a book, any book, can be interpreted. In fact there's a group, and I can't remember which one, that believes that some of the early scriptures are false; there's another who believe that...ugh, I think it was Abraham....was a false prophet. (Coming from distant memory, don't quote me on the exact words though the gist of it is fairly accurate)

~AJ

leauki posts:

As I read this, Zergimmi's earlier post came to mind:

Isreal's Zionist apologists and propagandists tell the world that no matter what or who is harmed, when it comes to Isreal, the ends justify the means.

Correction: When it comes to defending life, shooting at the attacker is necessary. There is no justification needed.

Now name three countries that didn't harm anyone when defending themselves.

Remember that I am from Germany and that my (German) family lost a house to the communists and some relatives to American bombs. So please don't tell me that Israel is unique in harming people when fighting a war or that annexation of land in war is some sort of weird Zionist crime never perpetrated by anybody else.

Also, you still owe me the evidence for all the accusations you made against Israel.

There's a point where it goes beyond merely defending yourself or your country/family. There's a point where you begin to use that noble concept as a justification for any over step, miscues, etc. Israel has gone past that a number of times in my opinion. What's the more reasonable/rational concept: Israel is being conspired against by the vast majority of the world so that they're always wrong and so on, or just maybe they have made mistakes and need to own up to them. Defense or not....no one, not even Israel, is perfect.

And yeah yeah, call me anti-semitic all you want; honestly, I don't give a fuck. I know who I am and am not, and your opinion doesn't matter on that topic. 

~AJ

kfc posts:

KFC,

A couple of things...

As far as the debate over whether or not God fulfilled His promise of the giving of all the land of Canaan and that of Genesis 15, I'll hang my hat on God's Word found in Joshua 21:43-45; 1Kings 8:56 (1 Samuel) ; and 2 Esdras 9:7-8 (Nehemias)  which all say the Lord God fulfilled His His part of the covenant. These 3 passages cover a time span of about 1,000 years.

As far as the word "forever" ....your mistake is thinking God's giving of the land is unconditional...when it wasn't...

God fulfilled His promise..He gave the land of Canaan (later come to be known as Palestine) as well as Egypt, and all the land in Genesis 15.

Genesis 13: 12-13; 15   Abram dwelt in the land of Chanaan; and Lot abode .... 14 And the Lord said to Abram, .... Lift up thy eyes, and look from the place wherein thou now art, to the north and to the south, to the east and to the west. 15 All the land which thou seest, I will give to thee, and to thy seed for ever.

Genesis 17:8  And I will give to thee, and to thy seed, the land of thy sojournment, all the land of Chanaan for a perpetual possession, and I will be their God. 

"and to thy seed forever" Even Abraham's posterity never enjoyed itr, at least for any long time.

"a perpetual possession" will last as long as they remain obedient...."and I will be their God"..was God's condition...we know trhat they turned to idolatry and so in time they lost the land.

Genesis 13 and 17 here are already fulfilled according to Joshua 21: 41-43 :

41 And the Lord God gave to Israel all the land that he had sworn to give to their fathers: and they possessed it and dwelt in it. 42 And he gave them peace from all nations round about: and none of their enemies durst stand against them, but were brought under their dominion. 43 Not so much as one word, which he had promised to perform unto them, was made void, but all came to pass.

We know who Abraham's seed was in the days of the OT. But after Christ, who is Abraham's seed as far as his descendants?  Is it those Jews who do not accept Christ? Christ answers no.  Rather Abraham's descendants are those who imitate the faith of Abraham.

Genesis 15: 16-21 " But in the fourth generation they shall return hither: for as yet the iniquities of the Amorrhites are not at the full until this present time. 17 And when the sun was set, there arose a dark mist, and there appeared a smoking furnace and a lamp of fire passing between those divisions. 18 That day God made a covenant with Abram, saying: To thy seed will I give this land, from the river of Egypt even to the great river Euphrates. 19 The Cineans and Cenezites, the Cedmonites, 20 And the Hethites, and the Pherezites, the Raphaim also, 21 And the Amorrhites, and the Chanaanites, and the Gergesites, and the Jebusites.

Verse 18 denotes very specific identifications of land...and according to 2 Esdras 9:7-8 (Nehemias ) the giving of the land including Canaan was fulfilled to the letter..." Thou, O Lord God, art he who chosest Abram, and broughtest him forth out of the fire of the Chaldeans, and gavest him the name of Abraham. 8 And thou didst find his heart faithful before thee: and thou madest a covenant with him, to give him the land of the Chanaanite, of the Hethite, and of the Amorrhite, and of the Pherezite, and of the Jebusite, and of the Gergezite, to give it to his seed: and thou hast fulfilled thy words, because thou art just.

kfc posts 89

turns out your 1Kings 4:21 is for me is 3kings 4:21.and about the same wording....21 And Solomon had under him all the kingdoms from the river to the land of the Philistines, even to the border of Egypt: and they brought him presents, and served him, all the days of his life.

Go to 2 Paralipomenon 9:25-26 (2 Chronicles) and that may clear things up.

25 And Solomon had forty thousand horses in the stables, and twelve thousand chariots, and horsemen, and he placed them in the cities of the chariots, and where the king was in Jerusalem. 26 And he exercised authority over all the kings from the river Euphrates to the land of the Philistines, and to the borders of Egypt.

An other point as far as Egypt is concerned, the Hebrews were in Egypt for 4 centuries "beforehand".  Genesis 15: 12-16; 17-21.

12 And when the sun was setting, a deep sleep fell upon Abram, and a great and darksome horror seized upon him. 13 And it was said unto him: Know thou beforehand that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land not their own, and they shall bring them under bondage, and afflict them four hundred years. 14 But I will judge the nation which they shall serve, and after this they shall come out with great substance. 15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace, and be buried in a good old age.

16 But in the fourth generation they shall return hither: for as yet the iniquities of the Amorrhites are not at the full until this present time. 17 And when the sun was set, there arose a dark mist, and there appeared a smoking furnace and a lamp of fire passing between those divisions. 18 That day God made a covenant with Abram, saying: To thy seed will I give this land, from the river of Egypt even to the great river Euphrates. 19 The Cineans and Cenezites, the Cedmonites, 20 And the Hethites, and the Pherezites, the Raphaim also, 21 And the Amorrhites, and the Chanaanites, and the Gergesites, and the Jebusites.

Gen. 50: 22-23 confirms this as well.

22 And he dwelt in Egypt with all his father's house: and lived a hundred and ten years. And he saw the children of Ephraim to the third generation. The children also of Machir the son of Manasses were born on Joseph's knees. 23 After which he told his brethren: God will visit you after my death, and will make you go up out of this land, to the land which he swore to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.