another suggestion is that it maybe a place holder so idk we will see when the beta is out and its still in alpha

uhhhhhhh..... what are you guys at IC doing?

No preview for Diplomacy?, no news?, nothing?

I find it very strange that vanilla Sins came out on Feb 2008 (thats 18 months ago),

Entrenchment came out on Feb 2009 (thats 12 months after vanila),

and Diplomacy will probably be released on Feb 2010 (thats 24 months after vanilla)

Those MICRO (key word here) expansions take forever to make... why? By now you should have released a FULL

expansion with a new race, a campaign, new units, new structures, new upgrades and MOVIES. We are being feed

scraps over a VERY long time. It takes way too long for any changes/updates and the MICRO-expansions are a joke. A

starbase here, a new diplomatic three there... 12 months between MICRO-expansions is WAY, WAY too long!

I'm really hoping they make it have more substance than that.

(From JUST the video), it looks like the only thing they're really adding is the ability to give missions to the computer, which, while nice, isn't a huge deal. You can already give them attack/defend targets, and that's good enough most of the time.

It also looks like you'll have to do research before making treaties, etc. That's dumb... it's like taking AWAY what we already have.

I'm hoping there's a lot more to it. I was planning on buying it because I figured, while it would probably be even smaller than Entrenchment, it would add something neat.

I'm utterly underwhelmed by that (bootleg) video. I hope for good news...

The beta will be out this fall, the release will be in early 2010.

http://www.neowin.net/news/gamers/09/08/26/sins-of-a-solar-empire-diplomacy-micro-expansion-announced

http://pc.ign.com/articles/101/1017406p1.html

Because they are an 11-man team that's also working on other things, including patches.

Well, they got the new units, new structures, new upgrades down already. New race they never really planned to do, campaign they've always said only if they figure out how to do it well because they don't want a regular linear "link the maps" campaign that people only play once. Movies aren't necessary.. and you're not being fed scraps. Entrenchment was a very polished micro expansion that pretty drastically changed the way the game is played.

See above. Patches, new projects, and expansions is quite a lot on the plate. Entrenchment not only received great reviews, but most players agree that it was well worth the price. So, speak for yourself.

What you seem to be underwhelmed by is what people have been asking for since the beta, even. The main complaint about the current diplomacy system was always that it was one sided, you could never give AI missions.

Yeah, but it should have been in a patch. It's not even worth $1 to me. If I want an AI to attack someone, as long as they're an ally, I just need to click on one of their planets, then say, "Set Ally Attack Target." Sure, I can't specify whether I want ships or civilian structures, but so? A quick hack to do the same thing might be to let you click an enemy planet, then do the same thing, for some monetary cost. Yeah, not as polished, but the infrastructure is already there.

And requesting resources from a computer, while doable, isn't particularly useful because I always have a stronger economy than they do.

I just don't see this affecting gameplay any more than superficially. It might make it so CPU won't give you missions until later in the game (which is bad), and it might allow you to have non-ally players attack a given target. Great.

But not really gamechanging, and even for a team of 11 working on other projects, I fail to see why this has taken so long. Unless the way they had coded Sins from the start made them have to rework a lot of code in order to do this, it really should have been a couple of switch statements, a few UI modifications, and then using existing infrastructure. Also, coding a bit of simple AI to decide whether the comp thought it was worth it. I'm not pulling this out of my ass, I'm a programmer. The only other way I can see this taking so long is if it sat on the backburner for a long time, because I could code something equivalent in C++ in an hour or two, it just wouldn't be part of Sins.

Details haven't really been announced, so things might change. But it's underwhelming any way you look at it. All of the features that have been added (AFAIK) are basically allowing you to do things the computer can do... after you research it.

The horse armor in Oblivion was more game-changing, although I admit the dev. time on that was clearly near zero.

im relaxed... sick, but relaxed. my 'tone of voice' comes from how disappointed i am. ive explained why. 

Im glad they are working and ive done some programming i realise how hard it is. im not talking about what they presented. i havent even SEEN what they presented yet. im upset about HOW they presented it, then shove it on the forums like: "well, we did show you SOMETHING". yeah, something in a pamplet that im NEVER going to see unless someone scans it onto a computer and puts it on YouTube! whats the point of being on the official website and forums if i have to go to YouTube to get my info?

Again, i dont care what they showed, i care that they cater for the small percentage of people able to go to PAX and leave everyone else out in the cold. i have no doubt (i hope, they could still do something monumentally stupid) that they will post electronic versions on the website soon, after their "holiday" (though why someone couldnt have taken the time to post it as it came out or soon after it came out at PAX i dont know), BUT, to claim that

Im not upset about what they showed, im upset that they have welded their mouths shut for over 6 months, then release some info at some gaming expo that i had never even heard of until now, and then threw up their hands and said 'well, there was a fair bit of info there" that i wont see until someone posts it on the net, AND if the YouTube reference was any example im sure alot of it will be third party if not boot-legged

THATS what im upset about. Poor Show Ironclad.

Like others were saying, it seems like IC is going the way of CA with the Total War series.

And could IC not even spare one (1) guy 10 minutes to make a post on the official forums here giving the dedicated fans here some additional info about the expansion? And again, why no official video? And the news page on the front of the site still says nothing about the presentation at PAX. This is about as anti-climactic as possible. Does IC want its fans to give up on them? And what about news on the patch?

This is currently my favorite game I own. A little more info about its future would be great, on the official site. Or is IC copying Apple's method of secrecy?

Guys, you do realize that a new patch and possible the diplomacy beta is on the horizon.  In other words, this is "crunch time" for IC's team.  Having worked on many software projects as part of my coursework, let me tell you something about crunch time: it is the most hellish time of your life.  I had about 10 consecutive days last year where I got up, worked for about 15 hours stopping only for meals, then went to bed.  I can fully understand why they're not forum browsing right now and responding to various questions.

execpt they arent... as Craig or Blair or whoever said, they've enjoying the weekend (given, thats over) and enjoying a holiday...

its now tuesday (given, in Australia, but still), if there is nothing by wednesday or thursday, thats simply not good enough

and like many people including myself have said: hire some guy fresh out of college for $50 an hour to write up some info about whats going on.

so you fork out maybe $150 (on the outside) you'll get it back in sales and then some.

and even if not, it sounds like all 11 members of the dev team were at PAX? would it have killed one or two of them to take an hour or two to put some info on the net?

forums go boom

Isn't it Stardocks responsibility for marketing, not Ironclads? I always thought publishers were supposed to take care of community communications and marketing. Could be a different agreement.

I disagree completely. The main complaint about the diplomacy system was the lack of a diplomacy system. If the focus point is on simply fixing a broken diplomacy rather than creating a diplomacy aspect of the game, then this will be a failed project

There really needs to be some alternate victory conditions, better ways to achieve those victories, and full on changes in diplomacy besides research. Hopefully this is only a tiny fraction of what has been done/is to be announced.

If not, Our New Hope will have to be sins 2 with a completely revamped game.

Woot Espionage

Hope that even the most basic things are fixed (AI, pathfiding, etc)

Noticed that almost all of the new tech in the vid, gave the bonus to kol and starbase attack bonus

Good find Mooster.

Its funny listening to Brad's running commentry on Elemental during PAX you'd think he was describing Diplomacy features for SoaSE. There's a conspiracy theory to muse over whilst we wait for news, better than these over opinionated anti-IC ramblings.

it is very dissappointing if dipomocay has not been added, but instead just another tech tree. 

But I await official confirmation.

@everyone else:  Yeah, I'd love to hear more, too.  However, it's entirely possible that the feature set has yet to be locked in for the micro expansion vs. the "something else" they're working on for Sins.  Even if it has been set, it likely hasn't been for long and testing may throw some wrenches into the works.  That means if they come out and introduce something that winds up not working out, it could be a bit disasterous.  Also, having an exclusive preview at a gaming convention might have been something used to bring people to PAX.  I'm sure we'll see something forthcoming in the near future. 

Oh, and Ironclad & Stardock are not remotely in the same time zone(s?) as Australia

Those tooltips were mostly placeholders.  The name and descriptions are correct, but the costs and bonuses are a placeholder for now.  A lot of thought it being put into the new tech trees to make sure they don't feel like something that is simply being tacked on to sell an expansion (they're not).

You are free to disagree all you want, however it's not going to change the fact that people have always complained about not being able to give the AI missions.

It's like disagreeing that the sky is blue. You can do it, but people who've actually tracked the game's progress (like SD and IC) will just look at you real funny.

well, one thing to consider. it was said that the old diplo system would be ripped out, incinerated and buried deep beneath the soil and a new one was to take its place. giving the ai missions and requiring research to make contact and conclude treaties does not sound that revolutionary. but by all accounts we simply know too little for any qualified statement, so I will keep back.

that said 1) the lack of some other stuff I thought could go in (like non-military victories) and 2) the lack of a bit of coverage is disappointing. I did check all sorts of sites for some news, as it was communicated as the release and they were showing it off, but aside from the general statement on stardocks pax site there was absolutely no info yet. yeah, it's coming, but the wait just drags along.

and since you mentioned patches and new projects: we don't know about new projects, maybe they do plan a bigger expansion, but patch-wise they were pretty silent. and let's face it, a series of community members managed to put together a huge and relatively good patch in their spare time and that did not take ages. I heard a new one is almost ready to launch, so optimism, but don't tell me that 3-4 patches take up significant attention over more than half a year. sure, you need to discuss things, but .. oh well.

They seem to want to keep their company small, but it is killing (in a silence is killing us kind of way....) thier rabid fanbase.

i'm pretty sure they said this was going in. yes, found the article

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3173256

My thing is this.

Stardock and IronClad have given us an excellent product.

Is it perfect? No
Find me one game that is perfect from beginning to end. You wont find one. Some do come close to perfection but only after years fo playtesting and patches (starcraft anyone).

The fact that we are arrogantly demanding a product that we have not even paid for is lame and childish. They never gave  us a strict calendar on anything. They may have given us hope but that does not give us the right to yell, scream, or threaten because it is not done in our terms. I am not saying we should not ask for more info but that we dont throw fits when we are not given all we want. We should respect what they have given us and enjoy what we have.  An excellent game, that is easily moddable, a great community and many a fun hour spent late night after a hard days work.

At least that is what I am planning on doing.

If they added a way to win through anything besides conquering planet by planet a 16 player mega galaxy, I would be overjoyed.  I'm still playing a huge map for the last 2-3 months and have about 65-70% of the map conquered. I have two huge fleets dismantling their empire, but it is a slow time consuming process.  Planet by planet conquest gets boring after the 98th time you do it.   I'm top dog on the map, and they should surrender to me or at least become vassal states for me! 

I want a galatic council that I can get elected to.  I want to win because my culture is 1000x times stronger than my enemies, and their huge production planet will defect to my side.  I want to steal research from my enemies, I want to sabatoge mineral production, I want to cause civil unrest, I want to coerce two sides to go to open war with each other, while they pay me tribute to help them.  I want to pass a ban on WMD's while I secretly amass my stockpile, and then unleash them on my enemies.  I want my trade routes to be protected even while two sides go to war.  I want to force weaker factions to pay me tribute so I dont crush them.  I want to pay a stronger faction to protect me until I can create a coalition of weaker factions to take down the stronger faction, and then turn on my allies when they are weak from breaking the stronger faction. 

Also stop demanding updates.  Things don't magically happen over night.  PAX takes place in Seattle WA, and this year it occured during a huge holiday weekend.  Let the dev's have their day off relax with their friends and families.  They may make games, but for them it is still a 9-5 job.

Well hey, I'm as excited as anyone about Diplomacy and can't wait to play it, but flaming Ironclad and Stardock for not revealing everything there is to reveal is shortsighted and it isn't going to help.

They aren't going to reveal things that aren't set in stone, as it opens them up to "But you promised so-and-so!" and they'd be forced to explain how they tried it and it didn't work and yadda yadda. They also aren't going to reveal stuff for marketing reasons. Like it or not, marketing is a reality and if they want exposure for Diplomacy they are going to have to give the news sites and mags their exclusives. For the "well why won't they do it already!" argument, see the first sentence in this paragraph.

In the end, last year we had no more information about Entrenchment than we do now about Diplomacy. We knew it'd have Starbases, mines, anti-structure cruisers, and a new tech tree. We didn't know how any of them were actually going to work. With Diplomacy, we know it'll have treaties and espionage, pirate remodeling, envoy ships, AI missions, and envoy ships. We also don't know much about how that's actually going to work.

And hey, Entrenchment turned out awesome. I don't understand why people are screaming bloody murder about it this year..

I'm not actually complaining about them wanting to keep things underwraps, But with PAX, we were promised SOME info and as you can see, some of us want anything we can get our hands on info wise.

That Youtube vid was sweet to watch.  I know it didn't show much, but it's something.  Had to pause it to read the tooltips though. :P  It'd be cool if we could get pics of the models for at least one of the new ships from one of the races.  Like they did with TEC for Entrenchment.  Maybe do Vasari this time.

I can't wait for Diplomacy!!!  But I won't complain.