drmiler

Join Date 09/2004

I think the ACLU are a bunch of Commies

This is a reprint from the Wall Street Journal

Bashing the Boy Scouts
One group whose First Amendment rights the ACLU opposes.

Friday, November 26, 2004 12:01 a.m. EST

Legal historians may someday explain how the once-great American Civil Liberties Union came to see the Boy Scouts as public enemy number one. In the meantime, the ACLU keeps on bringing its absurd First Amendment challenges against the Scouts. The Defense Department is the latest defendant to throw in the towel.

The issue this time is the status of Scout troops on military bases. Most troops have institutional sponsors, and the military has traditionally performed this function for troops on bases, especially overseas where other options aren't readily available. The ACLU claims this is religious discrimination because the Boy Scouts require members to believe in God.

That argument received a boost last week when the Defense Department agreed to issue an all-points reminder that official sponsorship of Boy Scout troops is against departmental rules. The edict is unlikely to have much practical effect, since most troops can continue under private sponsorship. But the PR effect is immense. Defense admitted no guilt--a subtlety that went mostly unnoticed in the media rush to report the ACLU's "victory."

If all this weren't silly enough, another part of the ACLU lawsuit uses the same church-state argument to object to the famous Boy Scout Jamboree, held since 1981 at Fort A.P. Hill in Virginia. This time the military is willing to fight the charges, which eventually will be decided by a federal court in Illinois. The Scouts receive no direct financial support from the Army for the Jamboree--though the ACLU contends there are indirect costs involved.

But so what? The military earns a lot of public goodwill and A.P. Hill's soldiers learn a thing or two in helping to put up a temporary city and police 35,000 energetic teenage males. The Army even comes out ahead financially. The Scouts expect to spend $29 million on next year's Jamboree--and that's on top of the $12 million or more that they've already put into the base's permanent infrastructure. The military and other civilian groups make use of those facilities when the Scouts aren't there, which is all but nine days every four years.

Ever since the Supreme Court upheld the Scouts' First Amendment right to bar Scoutmasters who are openly gay, the ACLU has looked for softer targets. The suit against the military is one of a series aimed at getting communities to deny access to public facilities. The original lawsuit also challenged the city of Chicago's sponsorship of troops in public schools, another venue where sponsors aren't always easy to find. The city settled.
In Connecticut the ACLU has succeeded in getting the state to remove the Scouts from the list of charitable institutions to which public employees may make voluntary contributions. And earlier this year it settled a suit against the city of San Diego, which agreed to evict the Scouts from a public park they have been using since 1918. The Scouts countersued, lost, and the case is now on appeal before the Ninth Circuit.

The question no one seems to be asking is, who's better off as a result of these lawsuits? Surely not the 3.2 million Boy Scouts, whose venerable organization is part of the web of voluntary associations once considered the bedrock of American life. If anything, the purpose of the ACLU attacks is to paint Scouts as religious bigots. Other losers are communities themselves, which are forced to sever ties to an organization that helps to build character in young men.

It's been 20 years since the ACLU brought its first suit against the Scouts. If there's one thing we've learned by now, it's that the ACLU offensive says more about the degraded status of the civil liberties group than it does about the Boy Scouts.

politics

Locked Post

Advanced Search

Watch this post

Do not email me updates for this post Email me updates for this post

Successfully updated karma reason!

cactoblasta

Join Date 04/2004

+48

You do realise what Communism is don't you?

Successfully updated karma reason!

You do realise what Communism is don't you?

For him its a label for those he does not agree with. I am sure he does not understand what communism is.

But the point is understood. The ACLU has gone to far in its zeal to promote freedoms that it is actually taking them away. Perhaps the Boy Scouts have changed since I was in, but the requirements to earn badges for religion used to be to visit any place of worship. We said the Boy Scout oath and said a Christian prayer, but our membership, much like our town is pretty much 100% Christian. The ACLU has gone overboard like PETA in acutally being against pet owners, like the NRA in being against even gun registration, like the "moral majority" in being against abortion even to save the mother or in cases of rape/incest and in opposing any form of birth control.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Reply #2 By: whoman69 - 11/27/2004 10:42:37 AM
You do realise what Communism is don't you?

For him its a label for those he does not agree with. I am sure he does not understand what communism is.

That is what you would get for thinking. For one thing what does a communist do when someone does not agree with their doctrine? Besides shooting them that is.
For another the word "commie" was used as an epithet.

Main Entry: ep·i·thet
Pronunciation: 'e-p&-"thet also -th&t
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin epitheton, from Greek, from neuter of epithetos added, from epitithenai to put on, add, from epi- + tithenai to put -- more at DO
1 a : a characterizing word or phrase accompanying or occurring in place of the name of a person or thing b : a disparaging or abusive word or phrase c : the part of a taxonomic name identifying a subordinate unit within a genus
2 obsolete : EXPRESSION
- ep·i·thet·ic /"e-p&-'the-tik/ or ep·i·thet·i·cal /-ti-k&l/ adjective

Next time ask before you just run-off at the mouth.

Successfully updated karma reason!

The first thing that Communist always do is create terror.Don't try to make your idiot post all noble now. Don't play us for fools and state this is anything more than a propoganda ploy. Do you need for me to post the definition for propoganda. As a characterization it fall way short until the ACLU start sending people to gulags in Siberia or making them disappear in midnight purges.

Next time ask before you just run-off at the mouth.

Next time get some oxygen before coming to the keyboard.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Reply #4 By: whoman69 - 11/27/2004 9:30:04 PM
That is what you would get for thinking. For one thing what does a communist do when someone does not agree with their doctrine? Besides shooting them that is.
For another the word "commie" was used as an epithet.

The first thing that Communist always do is create terror.Don't try to make your idiot post all noble now. Don't play us for fools and state this is anything more than a propoganda ploy. Do you need for me to post the definition for propoganda. As a characterization it fall way short until the ACLU start sending people to gulags in Siberia or making them disappear in midnight purges.

Next time ask before you just run-off at the mouth.

Did you even *read* the second half of my post? Let me refresh your memory.

For another the word "commie" was used as an epithet.

Main Entry: ep·i·thet
Pronunciation: 'e-p&-"thet also -th&t
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin epitheton, from Greek, from neuter of epithetos added, from epitithenai to put on, add, from epi- + tithenai to put -- more at DO
1 a : a characterizing word or phrase accompanying or occurring in place of the name of a person or thing b : a disparaging or abusive word or phrase c : the part of a taxonomic name identifying a subordinate unit within a genus
2 obsolete : EXPRESSION
- ep·i·thet·ic /"e-p&-'the-tik/ or ep·i·thet·i·cal /-ti-k&l/ adjective

Successfully updated karma reason!

Daiwa

Join Date 07/2001

+351

The ACLU has become a cure in search of a disease. They are a delusional bunch of nearsighted, underemployed lawyers. Other than that, they're great.

Cheers,
Daiwa

Successfully updated karma reason!

While I find it kind of silly to label those you disagree with as "commies," I will say that I think the ACLU does far more harm than good.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Did you even *read* the second half of my post? Let me refresh your memory.

I read your second half, I just don't believe it. It's mere propoganda.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Reply #8 By: whoman69 - 11/28/2004 1:21:03 AM
Did you even *read* the second half of my post? Let me refresh your memory.

I read your second half, I just don't believe it. It's mere propoganda.

Thank you! Now I KNOW you didn't read the second half. Try again. What I did is NOT considered propaganda, it's called labeling. You are not required to believe it.

One entry found for propaganda.

Main Entry: pro·pa·gan·da
Pronunciation: "prä-p&-'gan-d&, "prO-
Function: noun
Etymology: New Latin, from Congregatio de propaganda fide Congregation for propagating the faith, organization established by Pope Gregory XV died 1623
1 capitalized : a congregation of the Roman curia having jurisdiction over missionary territories and related institutions
2 : the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person
3 : ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause; also : a public action having such an effect

Successfully updated karma reason!

Wow, I clicked on this article to see what the author was writing, in hopes to have a good debate on the job the ACLU has done. Instead, we are arguing over words. Let's just clear a few things up quickly and then I'll defend the ACLU. Whoman69 says, "For him its a label for those he does not agree with. I am sure he does not understand what communism is." And your response is "No, I'm using it to degrade people." You can't say "no" and then agree with what Whoman says. You're right it's not propaganda, but you are just using the word communism as an ad hominem attack. The propaganda that you are using is when you say that they are bad because... oh wait, you never actually defended why they were bad. You put a Wall Street Journal article up and assumed that it made the article for you. So you spread ideas with the purpose of hurting an institution, that is your own definition of propeganda. I'll do my own propaganda in defense of the ACLU.

First, I will agree that, in some instances, the ACLU has gone to far. Notwithstanding, the ACLU is one of the most important organizations in the U.S. today. They fight for the rights of people that no one else will fight for. They sucessfully helped "enemy combatants" (according to Bush) have the right to an attorney and due process. Some people's response to this will be "we shouldn't give terrorists a lawyer", but yes, we should. We want to make sure that the people we put in jail actually worked for a terrorist organization. If they did, they should go to jail, but if not, well, no innocent person should ever be put in jail.

Well, I'd love to post more of the great things the ACLU has done, but I'm running late for work. And I agree with the ACLU's lawsuit in the article above, seperation of church and state has degraded very quickly since Bush took office and it's going to be a long four years (don't get me wrong, overall, I don't think Kerry would have been much better). We need the ACLU now more than ever to protect us from the government. I can't see why conservatives don't like the ACLU, they may be liberal on nearly every issue, but they want the power of the government to be tiny, which is a very conservative ideology.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Reply #10 By: csuperman7 - 11/28/2004 9:41:26 AM
Well, I'd love to post more of the great things the ACLU has done, but I'm running late for work. And I agree with the ACLU's lawsuit in the article above, seperation of church and state has degraded very quickly since Bush took office and it's going to be a long four years (don't get me wrong, overall, I don't think Kerry would have been much better). We need the ACLU now more than ever to protect us from the government. I can't see why conservatives don't like the ACLU, they may be liberal on nearly every issue, but they want the power of the government to be tiny, which is a very conservative ideology

Sorry but I don't agree. For Gods sake it's called the "boy scouts for a reason! They have been around a lot longer than the ACLU and will in all probability outlast them. And *why* are they picking on the scouts? Because they won't let gays in. Give me a break. Let'em start their own group if they want to do stuff like the scouts. It's the choice of the boy scouts council. They shouldn't be told you either do this or else. Letting the gay people into scouting is sort of like the Catholic priest scandle. The day they force the scouts to let gays in is the day the scouts fold!
And no they don't want governments power to be tiny. They want to be able to tell *us* what's right and what's wrong. They have outlived their usefulness, sort of like the UN. I will say that they have done good things in the past. But the article above shows more than anything that it's time for them to go.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Daiwa

Join Date 07/2001

+351

csuperman7 -

See the threads on separation of church and state. Some would disagree with you about the ACLU.

Cheers,
Daiwa

Successfully updated karma reason!

Thank you! Now I KNOW you didn't read the second half. Try again. What I did is NOT considered propaganda, it's called labeling. You are not required to believe it.

Let's keep track here. You don't know what communism is and you don't know what an epithet is. Stay away from the big words. If I say I don't like candidate a and then make claims he is a murderer and a thief when he is not, that's not an epithet, its propoganda. The labels Slick Willie or Tricky Dick are epithets. Saying Richard Nixon is a Nazi or Bill Clinton is a communist is propoganda.

the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person

ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause; also : a public action having such an effect

read your won definitions. now read an easier to understand definition of epithet: a phrase or word used to adjectively express some characteristic attribute or quality, example Harry Hotspur or Old Hickory. You're not expressing some characteristic, you're practicing McCarthyism.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Reply #13 By: whoman69 - 11/28/2004 1:00:03 PM
Thank you! Now I KNOW you didn't read the second half. Try again. What I did is NOT considered propaganda, it's called labeling. You are not required to believe it.

Let's keep track here. You don't know what communism is and you don't know what an epithet is. Stay away from the big words. If I say I don't like candidate a and then make claims he is a murderer and a thief when he is not, that's not an epithet, its propoganda. The labels Slick Willie or Tricky Dick are epithets. Saying Richard Nixon is a Nazi or Bill Clinton is a communist is propoganda.
the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person

ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause; also : a public action having such an effect

read your won definitions. now read an easier to understand definition of epithet: a phrase or word used to adjectively express some characteristic attribute or quality, example Harry Hotspur or Old Hickory. You're not expressing some characteristic, you're practicing McCarthyism.

I think just maybe you should reread the "dictionary deffinition" of the the word epithet. I'll repost it for you .
And I'll post the definition for disparaging for you in case you don't realize what that one means.

BR>Main Entry: ep·i·thet
Pronunciation: 'e-p&-"thet also -th&t
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin epitheton, from Greek, from neuter of epithetos added, from epitithenai to put on, add, from epi- + tithenai to put -- more at DO
1 a : a characterizing word or phrase accompanying or occurring in place of the name of a person or thing b : a disparaging or abusive word or phrase c : the part of a taxonomic name identifying a subordinate unit within a genus
2 obsolete : EXPRESSION
- ep·i·thet·ic /"e-p&-'the-tik/ or ep·i·thet·i·cal /-ti-k&l/ adjective

Now if what I said doesn't match the definition I don't know what does.
Check both definitions before answering me back.

One entry found for disparage. Main Entry: dis·par·age
Pronunciation: di-'spar-ij
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): -aged; -ag·ing
Etymology: Middle English, to degrade by marriage below one's class, disparage, from Middle French desparagier to marry below one's class, from Old French, from des- dis- + parage extraction, lineage, from per peer
1 : to lower in rank or reputation : DEGRADE
2 : to depreciate by indirect means (as invidious comparison) : speak slightingly about synonym see DECRY
- dis·par·age·ment /-ij-m&nt/ noun
- dis·par·ag·er noun
- dis·par·ag·ing adjective
- dis·par·ag·ing·ly /-ij-i[ng]-lE/ adverb

Successfully updated karma reason!

And BTW just for the record, that wouldn't be propaganda. That would be an outright lie because you know it's not true.

Successfully updated karma reason!

And while I'm thinking about it. Lets get back on topic shall we?

Successfully updated karma reason!

And while I'm thinking about it. Lets get back on topic shall we?

Ok the topic was that the ACLU are commies. Have they tried to violently overthrow the government and install a socialist state? Have they begun a reign of terror to keep their views in power? No, then they are not commies.

Honest Abe is also an epithet, it does not need be negative.

Successfully updated karma reason!

drmiler,
Thanks for a post that hilights the attack on scouting, I too have a post reflecting the values of scouting, and like your post it seemed to have become a forum for support of seperation church FROM state rather than a separation of church and state.
Scouting will survive this assault, as America returns to the values that scouting never left, those that disagree will not go quietly into the night tho........................

Successfully updated karma reason!

Forget the tenets of communism, epithets, and so on, the ACLU is a bunch of whack-job shitheads. What started as a good thing went over to the loony side years ago, and has only gotten worse since. The scouting thing is only one example of a multitude.

Is that concise enough? Or do we half to descend into using words of one syllable before we can actually discuss the content of drmiler's article? My only real objection to his use of communist is that to me, it's not nearly a strong enough statement.

Something along the lines of "Fuck those fucking fuckers" (copyright 04, greywar) seems more apropos, although somewhat more difficult to get away with in a title.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Reply #17 By: whoman69 - 11/28/2004 4:29:49 PM
And while I'm thinking about it. Lets get back on topic shall we?

Ok the topic was that the ACLU are commies. Have they tried to violently overthrow the government and install a socialist state? Have they begun a reign of terror to keep their views in power? No, then they are not commies.

Honest Abe is also an epithet, it does not need be negative.

Look I'm tired of this game. *Reread* reply #14. And pay *special* attention to the high-lighted sections of the "dictionary" definitions!

Successfully updated karma reason!