iamheather

Pell Grants Response

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Pell Grants Response

from JoeUser Forums
Since I cannot comment on another user's blog about cutting Pell Grant funding (seems I was pre-emptively blacklisted), I would like to offer an opposing point of view.

While I commend anyone who rises above the difficulties life has dealt them, giving credit to government programs diminishes that person's achievement. I, too, came from a low-income family. College was not an option for me unless I earned it. Instead of applying for a government grant, I strived from my very first day in school to keep my grades up. Eventually, upon graduating from High School, I had full academic scholarships to several universities. In both my case and the example of the person who utilized Pell Grants, it was our tenacity and achievements that enabled us to receive a college education.

Having said this, let me clear up the "cut in funding for Pell Grants." This is a mistatement. Funding was not cut for Pell Grants. Pell Grants will have no less money than last year. The increase in the annual funding was lowered. The funding will still increase, just at a lower rate than some wanted and expected. Please see the below chart:





The President's proposal increases funding for the Pell grant program by $800 million and sets aside $3.7 billion in mandatory budget authority to eliminate the Pell Grant shortfall. However, it will keep the maximum grant award at $4,050 for the third consecutive year.

And for the first time, recipients of Pell Grants will be allowed to receive up to three grants a year. In the past, applicants only qualified for one grant a year.

Fiscal restraint is the mantra repeated by both sides of the aisle, but no one will ever agree on "things we really need" vs. "things we just want." In the new FY05 budget, some people were upset with the cuts in the National Science Foundation.
Federal air traffic controllers produced a scathing ad against Bush for proposing to cut some of their funding. Other education advocates immediately jump on Pell Grants. What about the environment? Global warming is a huge issue for some people.


Beware congressional leaders, in the spirit of fiscal restraint, cut too much and suddenly legistlators are lableled selfish, heartless, self-serving Republicans taking checks from Seniors, lunches from school children, destroying our environment, and denying minorities and low-income Americans educational opportunities.
politics
24,741 views 70 replies
Reply #51 from JoeUser Forums Top

Reply #53 By: dabe - 11/28/2004 10:25:07 PM
And I don't attack the integrity of those who don't feel they should have to give out their hard earned money to others. Personal responsibility and self-reliance can get you pretty far.


Yeah, but you attack the integrity of virtually everyone else with your arrogant, let-me-inject-some-reality sanctimony. For your freakin' information, I also was raised in poverty. My parents didn't spend a dime on my education because they didn't have it. What got me through school was my determination, and yes, thank you government, the Pell grants and student loans, which by the way took me years and years to pay off. I'm so happy for you that you didn't abandon your republican roots. Nor, will I abandon my democratic roots. It's a huge philosophical divide, here. Crap, all I was doing was trying to make an argument in favor of subsidized education, and you get your britches all bunched up and inject excuse me, your reality. Oh puleeeeeze............................ And yes, I do blame republicans. Their the ones who seem to want to cut every social program they can get thier twisted little minds around, while at the same time give tax breaks during wartime, run up the deficits into all time record highs, which our grandchildren will have to juggle with when their time to think about balancing the budgets comes around. Also, considering the tax breaks are not salvaging this economy in any way, shape or form, it's just getting worse and worse, and now your buddy boy bush wants to borrow a few trillion more to pay for privatizing social security. Holy freakin' crap, it never ends with you righties. And you call yourselves the fiscally responsible party. That's your up your you know what reality. It sure ain't my reality.


Your playing with fire woman. And if you keep it up your going to get burned.
Reply #52 from JoeUser Forums Top
dabe:

Well then according to your own head up your ideology stance, we should start making kids and/or their parents pay for their own grade and high school eductions. That way only those that can affford it will go, and the education will be so much better for those few. (Gee, I suppose that's the premise of vouchers. Those that can afford the difference get them, and those that can't afford them get screwed) Everyone else be damned, cuz we as a society don't care. Is that what you're suggesting? Because if that's what you really believe, you're ............


Study up on vouchers before you so easily subscribe to the rhetoric the liberals brainwash you with. You have no idea how vouchers as proposed would work.

your buddy boy bush wants to borrow a few trillion more to pay for privatizing social security


Do you or anyone in your camp have another idea?.....didn't think so. At least Bush has the guts to try something! It isn't like SS is a new problem we just became aware of.

drmiler

Your playing with fire woman. And if you keep it up your going to get burned


My thoughts exactly!
Fences - Organize your desktop icons today!
Reply #53 from JoeUser Forums Top

Reply #53 By: dabe - 11/28/2004 10:25:07 PM
And I don't attack the integrity of those who don't feel they should have to give out their hard earned money to others. Personal responsibility and self-reliance can get you pretty far.


Yeah, but you attack the integrity of virtually everyone else with your arrogant, let-me-inject-some-reality sanctimony. For your freakin' information, I also was raised in poverty. My parents didn't spend a dime on my education because they didn't have it. What got me through school was my determination, and yes, thank you government, the Pell grants and student loans, which by the way took me years and years to pay off. I'm so happy for you that you didn't abandon your republican roots. Nor, will I abandon my democratic roots. It's a huge philosophical divide, here. Crap, all I was doing was trying to make an argument in favor of subsidized education, and you get your britches all bunched up and inject excuse me, your reality. Oh puleeeeeze............................ And yes, I do blame republicans. Their the ones who seem to want to cut every social program they can get thier twisted little minds around, while at the same time give tax breaks during wartime, run up the deficits into all time record highs, which our grandchildren will have to juggle with when their time to think about balancing the budgets comes around. Also, considering the tax breaks are not salvaging this economy in any way, shape or form, it's just getting worse and worse, and now your buddy boy bush wants to borrow a few trillion more to pay for privatizing social security. Holy freakin' crap, it never ends with you righties. And you call yourselves the fiscally responsible party. That's your up your you know what reality. It sure ain't my reality.


You do not bad mouth your host.
Reply #54 from JoeUser Forums Top
Draginol:

The two reasons international students are "clamoring" to enter our college system are 1)businesses throw tons of money into research so the facilities themselves are fantastic; and 2)because American businesses comb through graduating senior lists to staff high-paying entry-level positions.

Heather:

Look, we're good, caring, freedom-loving people, but we're somewhat hypocritcal. We believe the roll of legal immigrants is to assimilate. We believe the roll of minimal government is to protect the freedom of the moral majority. We believe nothing tastes as good as something you had to work for. . .when you finally get to eat.


That was my whole quote, and my point was that we do not to protect the freedom of everyone, but the freedom of everyone who properly assimilates with the moral majority. Enter the morality debate that took place this election year. Do not misread: Both Reps and Dems are guilty of this, this year and others.

Also, I should say something about your aversion to the attitude of intellectual superiority. I think that placing education at the top of the priority list is not a sign of arrogance, but a sign of hope. A few people on this thread suggested that if other people were allowed to receive a higher eduation for free, it would cheapen the tremendous effort some students must give to get their education. It's a similar concept, Heather. People want to judge themselves by comparison to other people, and that's not a good thing. It's not arrogance to believe everyone should have access to education on whatever level. It doesn't make an "educated" person better than another, and it doesn't mean I believe everyone should be forced to go to school, either.

I just believe an open system is better than a closed one, and more capable of developing our country into a safer place with more opportunities for discovery around every turn.

TBT
Reply #55 from JoeUser Forums Top

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Reply #56 from JoeUser Forums Top

Dabe Writes: Well then according to your own head up your ideology stance, we should start making kids and/or their parents pay for their own grade and high school eductions. That way only those that can affford it will go, and the education will be so much better for those few. (Gee, I suppose that's the premise of vouchers. Those that can afford the difference get them, and those that can't afford them get screwed) Everyone else be damned, cuz we as a society don't care. Is that what you're suggesting? Because if that's what you really believe, you're ............ shit, I can't say it. I'll get chastised.

Translation: Dabe has no idea what vouchers are or how they are to be used. Nor does she suggest an alternative.

And I don't attack the integrity of those who don't feel they should have to give out their hard earned money to others. Personal responsibility and self-reliance can get you pretty far.

Yeah, but you attack the integrity of virtually everyone else with your arrogant, let-me-inject-some-reality sanctimony.

Because most of your proposal and rants are either based on completely false assumptions or fly in the face of history.

For your freakin' information, I also was raised in poverty. My parents didn't spend a dime on my education because they didn't have it. What got me through school was my determination, and yes, thank you government, the Pell grants and student loans, which by the way took me years and years to pay off.

You were the one who asserted that the reason I am not outraged that pell grant spending increases have been slowed down is because I wouldn't be affected.  You are the one who asserted that the reason I'm a Republican is purely because of tax cuts (being the "selfish" guy I am apparently).  I corrected you on these two things. I grew up poor and I had to pay for my own college education as well. In short, we had similar experiences going to college.

I'm so happy for you that you didn't abandon your republican roots. Nor, will I abandon my democratic roots. It's a huge philosophical divide, here. Crap, all I was doing was trying to make an argument in favor of subsidized education, and you get your britches all bunched up and inject excuse me, your reality.

You said that college education should be a right. I strongly disagree. I witnessed (And surely you did as well) lots of spoiled "dad pays everything" kids at school pissing away their time on parties and failing classes because they weren't ready to grow up.  Not everyone is cut out for college.

Moreover, *someone* has to pay for school. I think, as a society, we are much better off with individual families paying for their own kids to go to college. I do support scholastically tested / means tested scholarships and other help. But if you make it a "right" then it's just free for people to go and mess around. Sorry, no way.

Oh puleeeeeze............................ And yes, I do blame republicans. Their the ones who seem to want to cut every social program they can get thier twisted little minds around, while at the same time give tax breaks during wartime, run up the deficits into all time record highs, which our grandchildren will have to juggle with when their time to think about balancing the budgets comes around.

So you really have no idea what caused the deficit do you? The #1 cause is the recession which Bush (nor Clinton) can be blamed for.  Each year spending goes up at X percent automatically. If the economy doesn't grow at Y percent where Y is >= to X then you will have deficits.  We would have had a deficit even if there'd been no tax cut.

And no, I don't think it's the job of the FEDERAL government to provide social care to all its citizens in every little way.  You've already been proven wrong about the Pell grant issue, btw.

Also, considering the tax breaks are not salvaging this economy in any way, shape or form, it's just getting worse and worse, and now your buddy boy bush wants to borrow a few trillion more to pay for privatizing social security.

The Bush tax cuts paid for an extra employee here. That extra employee helped develop this website. Without the Bush tax cut, there'd be no JoeUser.com and one fewer job in the market.  Spread that across thousands of businesses and thousands of investors and you do have a significant boost to the economy.  The economy, by all reason, should have been far worse.  I think the federal reserve combined with the tax cuts averted a depression.

Holy freakin' crap, it never ends with you righties. And you call yourselves the fiscally responsible party. That's your up your you know what reality. It sure ain't my reality.

Holy freakin' crap, it never ends with you righties. And you call yourselves the fiscally responsible party. That's your up your you know what reality. It sure ain't my reality.

Your reality apparently doesn't include mathematics.  You are aware that you can calculate how much extra tax revenue would be generated if the tax cuts were repealed right? Guess what, not even remotely close to covering the deficit.  The deficit, at the macro level, is really measured by % of GDP.  It's at around 4% of GDP at present.  The reason that's imortant is because it makes it more understandable how it come into being in the first place. 

Bush definitely has been piss poor about fiscal responsibility with spending increases. But YOU are the one screaming about any sort of cut to one of your precious government hand-outs.

Apparently YOUR answer to the deficit is to just raise taxes. Which won't eliminate the deficit and it will certainly cost jobs.  Because everyone time someone suggests cutting spending, people like you will start name-calling the Republicans. 

YOU are the one complaining about fiscal responsibility AND suggesting that the government pay for college for everyone.  No doubt you also believe in universal health care and a whole bag of other goodies.  This is why Democrats aren't taken seriously by the electorate anymore.  You choose not to live in the real world.  That is what I mean by "reality check" to you.  You want balanced budgets and increased spending. And your only suggestion is to raise taxes which won't pay for this stuff anyway.

Reply #57 from JoeUser Forums Top
LittleWhip:
Another reason our colleges do so much better is due to CHOICE and COMPETITION. They are competing for those education dollars because people have a choice as to where they are going to spend them.And thats exactly what school vouchers would do, give people some control over where their child is educated. Guess what, if your school sucks, people will spend those vouchers eleswhere. As it is now, kids are forced to attend the schools in the district of their residence in order to gain any benefit at all from the tax dollars their parents have spent. And even if a parent can afford to send them to private school, they still pay those property taxes.....


Great response! Again like Draginol's article What the Democrats need to do next states, you may not like the Republican plan, but at least we are doers. At least we have a plan. What do liberals offer?

Draginol
Bush definitely has been piss poor about fiscal responsibility with spending increases. But YOU are the one screaming about any sort of cut to one of your precious government hand-outs.


Agreed! That is why I posted another article Trimming the Fat where people can list their ideas of what programs should be reduced in order to achieve "fiscal responsibility." So far, it appears only Texas Wahine and citahellionas have posted anything. Everyone else either refuses to give anything up, or has no idea what programs there are.

Apparently YOUR answer to the deficit is to just raise taxes. Which won't eliminate the deficit and it will certainly cost jobs. Because everyone time someone suggests cutting spending, people like you will start name-calling the Republicans.


Great point!

YOU are the one complaining about fiscal responsibility AND suggesting that the government pay for college for everyone. No doubt you also believe in universal health care and a whole bag of other goodies. This is why Democrats aren't taken seriously by the electorate anymore. You choose not to live in the real world. That is what I mean by "reality check" to you. You want balanced budgets and increased spending. And your only suggestion is to raise taxes which won't pay for this stuff anyway.


Dabe, post some things you think are worthy of being reduced.

Draginol, i admire your patience.I truly do.


As do I! I stand in awe of your patience and consideration.
Reply #58 from JoeUser Forums Top

College was not an option for me unless I earned it. Instead of applying for a government grant, I strived from my very first day in school to keep my grades up. Eventually, upon graduating from High School, I had full academic scholarships to several universities.


This is well and good, but it fails to recognize a reality of life for many students. Throughout my high school years, it was necessary for me to work full time, thus severely hindering study time and making it more difficult to achieve the grades necessary for academic scholarships. I am also well aware that my situation was not unique.

Reply #59 from JoeUser Forums Top
This is well and good, but it fails to recognize a reality of life for many students. Throughout my high school years, it was necessary for me to work full time, thus severely hindering study time and making it more difficult to achieve the grades necessary for academic scholarships. I am also well aware that my situation was not unique.


I also worked throughout my high school years, but where there is a will, there is a way!
Reply #60 from JoeUser Forums Top
Glad ya liked that response, heather, but uhmm, it was mine....lol.


YIKES! So sorry! I have the worst habit of doing that when I am typing a long response. So sorry. I will correct it!~
Reply #61 from JoeUser Forums Top
LittleWhip
If you have the only product in town, and your pay is guaranteed by the govt...and your customers are forced to consume it because its the only thing the govt will pay for, (out of taxes involuntarily confiscated) what incentive do you have to improve conditions? None, nada, zilch.And frankly, dear Scarlett, this is why our schools dont give a damn.


OOoooohhhh you are so smart. I love the way you put it in simplistic terms, so that even the simple minded can understand.


As a side note, i think it makes little difference to dabe how much school vouchers make sense, Republicans like the idea so its automatically wrong in her mind.


Unfortunately, you are probably correct. Sad actually.
Reply #62 from JoeUser Forums Top
If you have the only product in town, and your pay is guaranteed by the govt...and your customers are forced to consume it because its the only thing the govt will pay for, (out of taxes involuntarily confiscated) what incentive do you have to improve conditions?


That really depends on the quality of your government. Back in 1996 the Australian government cut staffing in most departments by up to 20%. They didn't reduce funding, but the end result was that much of the dead weight was hacked out. Every generation needs a purge to keep the workers working hard or otherwise they get complacent as you describe.
Reply #63 from JoeUser Forums Top
So you're willing to put up with gross incompetence in your governments? Personally I think regular purges are essential or otherwise your taxes are being used to pay people to play solitaire. Cutting funding without laying off staff is a waste of time. I would argue that most of the wasteful programs are wasteful because they are overstaffed or wrongly staffed. Send in a few brutal consultants (as they do in big business) and you might see some improvements in efficiency.
Reply #64 from JoeUser Forums Top
As a side note, i think it makes little difference to dabe how much school vouchers make sense, Republicans like the idea so its automatically wrong in her mind.


School vouchers make no sense at all. And, it's not because republicans like the idea, therefore I don't. You got it wrong. It's a lousy idea, so republicans just love it.

I just posted a new article called, of all things, School Vouchers Link
Reply #65 from JoeUser Forums Top

The bigger the government the more incompotence there is. Actually the bigger the organization you have the more incompotence there is. Australia has a population of what? 20 million? You can't compare the two.  I suspect we could look at states that are demographically similar to Australia and show a good result too. The problem has to do with certain parts of the country really.

Reply #66 from JoeUser Forums Top
The problem has to do with certain parts of the country really.


So you'd rather blame geopolitical and socio-economic differences than do something that might help even a tiny bit? That's a tad defeatist.
Reply #67 from JoeUser Forums Top
Draginol
When something becomes a "right" the quality of it seems to go down. Our high schools suck. That's because there's little competition involved. They're "free" so there's less concern about the quality.

Some High Schools suck because teacher education programs suck.

The more I read about this the more enraged I get. I'd like to know how many people who are ranting, raving, name calling, etc on this thread have even taught in schools. It's real easy to sit back and participate in meaningless commentary.

On a spereate note, I can't even believe stuff like this is allowed up here. I don't mean to pick on you LW, because I know it shows up all over the place, this just seems excessive, Where the heck are the moderators?

BITCH, you have no fucking idea what ive fought my way through in this life, though many that have been reading my blog for the past 6 months do. I dont expect you to bother. I dont expect someone as shallow and narrow minded as yourself to take the fucking time to ever see me as anything or anyone but the "enemy," since youve already stated as much in your " I hate the GOP leadership" thread.

The title of that thread is a LIE, btw, because youve made it more than clear that its not just the leadership you hate, its every freaking Republican in ths nation, and in JU. You run your mouth all over the damn place and then blacklist anyone who just MIGHT present a decent rebuttal to your hysterical bullshit.

Im gonna fight this disease? Hah, what have YOU fought, dabe, other than your own demons that make you think anyone not on your side politically is a waste of flesh?

Oh dear, you had a "shithead" husband....My heart bleeds for ya, i had one that cut my damn throat, cracked my ribs so bad he almost punctured my heart, and kicked half my teeth out of my face, hows that for a shithead? I endured for 15 years before i could make a break..have you survived sich a thing? I have.

Ever slept on the street, literally? I have.

Ever overcome drug addiction? I have.

Ever had to break the law to buy health care you required to save your freaking life, and paid the price for it? I have.

Oh man, imma quit before i truly lose it, but dont you fucking tell ME about fighting a goddamn thing. Eat shit and die.

(my apologies to both heather and the mods, if i get sent to my room, so be it, i just cant stand this utter bitch another minute.)

This is an embarassment.
Reply #68 from JoeUser Forums Top
A second post:
A lot of us grew up on the poverty line, always scrap by, nearly die, overcome our demons, whatever. The arrogance that surrounds posting and nearly bragging about these things is sick. Just sick.
Reply #69 from JoeUser Forums Top
A second post:
A lot of us grew up on the poverty line, always scrap by, nearly die, overcome our demons, whatever. The arrogance that surrounds posting and nearly bragging about these things is sick. Just sick.


Leaping, did you read the post that prompted that response? You might have a little more understanding. LW was simply addressing an accusation that she was a deadbeat who didn't try to fight her illness.
Reply #70 from JoeUser Forums Top
Yeah...It wasn't even a direct comment to LW. I just remembered because I saw it here. I've seen it around quite a bit here and there. It just seems like people use their struggle to justify things. It just wrong. When people start doing that, the struggle and the knowledge people gained through the struggle loses it's meaning and importance. I know it's off topic. You can delete if if you want.