Tower upgrades, armor stacking, and AoEs. End of minion swarm.

If the problem is them going halfway across the map and tearing up the base then fix that. Don't nerf them in direct combat.

not really

they still have control on minions so they can move them back and dont use them if they like so

lol, usual total nosense

tower upgrades??? you kidding?

with the idiot normal tower setup everyone wants to play the first 2 towers are dead way b4 lvl 2

and even if you put a strong defense on towers (!?!?!?!) lvl 2 upgrade doesnt do a shit with tower default

Except that in direct combat that's nearly impossible. If you're fighting a TB(just an example) the minions are spawning and dieing a lot quicker then you can control.

Just telling you what strat I've used to beat several minion swarm builds. What would you suggest instead?

that could work... another idea would be rewards for minion death to effect those minions that leave their general.  so say a bunch of strageling monks lag behind and get eaten... gold for that.  of maybe an erebus build sends a mob of minions to squish a tower on the other end of the map and u tp in to kill them... gold for that.

this way minions builds would focus on general support rather than being their own little army.  not sure on actual area of effect, could even make the reward scale depending on distance or something?

That minions are nerfed so he doesn't have to think up a counter.

"If" anything needs to happen here (and I don't think we've actually established that that's the case), then the above solution would be just fine.  10 gimped, level 1, bonus-free nightstalkers and spirits aren't going to be taking anything down in a hurry and without the bonus HP from skills and whatnot, they're going to get fried almost immediately by any towers they run across.

If there's a balance issue with the stats of lone minion mobs, then I'd say it makes a lot more sense to simply tweak those stats instead of adding a monetary penalty for generals doing what they're supposed to be doing. 

It can be terribly bothersome to be followed by a minion swarm, if you try to kill them you will loose a lot of hp and the enemy demigod will come and finish you off. If you try to run, well, you miss out on exp...

I think that there should be some kind of reward for killing them, some gold or experience.

The Idol powers just need more cool down to resummon, that way it would reward players to kill the minions, as if you kill them then you would know they can not be resummoned less than 30 secs later.

It would also make generals have to micro more, and we all know micro > spam in the skill stakes.

There's very little risk in using minions, and there's no reward at all in killing them.

Using them, your opponent has to walk through a wall of 200 DPS to get to you, while you run long before they're near.

Against them, even if you manage to AoE them down with two Demis, you gain yourself five whole seconds. Just enough time to run to the lane and watch them respawn.

Maybe they should add a toggle for EB that drains HP/Mana.  When active, he has the chance to create minions, at the cost of his own life (I like HP better, goes with the whole vamp thing...).  When not active, he doesnt lose anything, but he doesnt create any minions either.  Lets say every minion costs 50hp at low levels, and scales up.  EB can stack health with the best of them as it is, and its not like ooze is considered crap because it does the same thing (Constantly, rather then in short bursts).

As for Oak, have his "Flag" cost mana, either in a steady drain, a 1 time sum, or per ghost cost, like EB (Above).

Sedna gives up heal for Yeti (In the cost of mana).  Same with Queen, she gives up skills for minions.  All other DGs have to decide, do I want to spit on you, or save the mana for grasp.  If minions are going to be the "skills" of the Generals, then it should cost the same as the skills of the assassins.  Sedna and Queen already follow this model, why do Oak and EB not?

IMO this would make sense however when i posted a similar idea a while ago it was flamed into non existance.  this seems to be a problem the community is split down the middle on.  so its probably going to have to be a dev that makes the final decision (and since changes involve time and money i can see where this is going).

for me the thought is that if a demigod is going to spend time and energy to kill minions then they deserve a reward (what ever that is).  if that reward is simply hindering the minions owner then so be it, but since mana costs and cooldowns are so low, destroying a whole army of minions is basicly worthless.  soon as stratigic actions in a game like demigods become worthless and time/energy consuming with no reward it also soon becomes less fun.  and games that arn't fun are well... not fun.

HP/mana drain toggle wouldn't work simply because of the control setup in this game, regardless of its balance implications.

Instead of a toggle, is it possible to have an active ability that only hurts you when you create a minion?  I guess it would be like lifedrain, but in reverse, and not on a hit, but on the creation of a nightwalker?

For Oak, just have his flag cost mana to place.

 This whole discusion is a bit above my head. That is to say, I find it hard to understand why having minions granting xp would be a disadvantage for generals.

Minions are optional, right? You can buy them, or not. They do grant asignificant advantage since they increase the tanking ability of the generals. Now, as with any game, I think the choice should be 'should I get minions despite the fact that they grant xp when they die?' Or better: does the advantage of having minions outweigh the disadvantages, therefore making minions worthwhile?

Right now every general will want minions where I think it would be more appropriate to have a good alternative of not having minions. Maybe this advantage should not be expressed as a function of being able to stand up to an assasin build to destroy you, but maybe in another option for something to do with the idol-slots. Maybe having voodoo-figurines that grant an additional aura would be nice.

Whatever may be of that, I think that making minions so that they are a no-brainer choice is bad. Therefore I think they should grant at least a bit of xp when killed. I think the difficulties of controlling the minions is not a factor, since moving your minions out of battle can be as simple as pressing n (selecting the DG + minions ) and right-clicking. This became a second nature to me in half a game as Erebus. It is not hard to control minions in a fight. Controlling an individual minion in the midst of battle is another thing, but then you get an advantage in return. The general's minion dies, yet the general can direct all minions to hit the DG killing the minion without taking any damage himself. This is a very big advantage, and I would say it is worth at least a little bit of xp for the trouble to the assasin.

I think I can summerize the general feelings of this thread.

Killing a Minion (not an idol) should grant a player a minimal reward of either gold, experience or both.

There are different builds for DGs. I never use ooze online and I have not lost a game - well twice actually thanks to dodgy disconnects due to demigod crashing. Ooze is a brainer since you need to know what you are doing before using it.

Minions are the kind of thing every general will want. They pose a real threat to anything that comes near - that is they are quite significant assets in the ense that they do a ot of damage and can even heal the owning DG, his allies and each other - and the minions can tank very well. In return, the opposing players should get something for killing them.

Idols should grant a little xp imo as well. In the end everything that is at least a bit of an accomplishment grants xp. The DG using idols can always micro his minions towards his own towers. Then the DG that does the chasing will see if keeping the chase on is worth the trouble or that he needs to do something else.

All in all I think this makes the game more interesting. Maybe the generals should get another option in order to compensate for the granting xp. In the end though I think minions not granting xp is bad because it does not reward me directing my resources towards killing something.

Again, I would gain nothing by fighting Assassins if I didn't net a kill. If one gets XP from minions, it's only fair that they get XP for dealing damage to Demigods. In short, I disagree with this idea.

my counter argument for this would be that its only fair for minions to NOT give exp when assassins can have stats equal to a general plus his/her minions.  from my rough calculations i think erebus can get up 5000hp (250 dps) with minions at 12000hp (300dps).  so when rook or regulus can have 17000hp with 550dps without artifacts then i'll agree that no exp is needed.

on another note.  someone mentioned other RPG's and RTS's and how they handle exp and minions.  if you look at DotA (which is a MOBA like Demigod) then u see that pet characters do reward experiance and gold which makes those builds have both pro and cons like Shurdus mentions.

You'll also note that DotA is entirely imbalanced towards AoE and stun attacks, and this is one of the reasons why. Furthermore, as minions are vulnerable to things that a DG is not, it would be incorrect to associate them so directly to HP and DPS. The fact that minions can be stunned and then ignored (9 seconds being plenty of time to beat down a minion general in a 3v3), and then the fact that minions die as the "megahero" takes more damage, and such a direct relation becomes more obviously flawed.

If you really wanted to, you could have one teammate buy a parasite egg for generals, and the minions would die in but a few nukes. Assuming, of course, good enough voice-chat capabilities to coordinate nuking.

The real concern, as many people have already stated, is that minions can be stupidly effective despite being far away from the General who summoned them. This could be easily remedied by putting a range cap on either minions or minion-buffing effects.

Actually the real difference between DotA and DG in regards to pets is the last hit mechanics.  While you have to deliver the last hit to a pet in DotA in order to receive gold, you would only need to tag the pets with 25% damage (a single AoE spell) in Demigod and receive all the gold for their kill.  Aditionally, the pets in DotA come in much lower quantities and are a lot more powerful, so you don't have to micro 15+ units, but rather concentrate on few and thus can avoid feeding the enemy xp/gold.

The minions in DG were simply designed to be expendable, so it's a bad idea to make killing them rewarding.  But this leads to their abuse, so a vicous circle.