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Could the beta program be an experience unto itself?

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Could the beta program be an experience unto itself?

from JoeUser Forums

SwampLordPaintingFinal In my mind, the fun of Elemental resides in the fact that you’re not just trying to conquer some fantasy world but the world itself is designed to be so organic and unique from game to game.

A lot of the difference between games is a result of things like a tech tree that has different techs in it, a huge library of special content that is integrated into map generation randomly each game, quests, integrated community content, and the divergent paths to victory.

Now, as some of you know, Stardock’s bread and butter isn’t from game development.  Our desktop software and enterprise software have always given us the luxury of being able to take as long as we want to develop our games as well as take “risks” on the way we release our games (no copy protection for instance – which, in case people are wondering, the retail version of Elemental will not have copy protection).

And that brings me to a question I wanted to pose to you folks.  Would you be interested in us extending the beta?  Since anyone can join betas by pre-ordering, we could try something that really hasn’t been done before as far as I know – make the beta experience something truly outstanding unto itself.

Right now, the schedule is this:

  • Beta 1 in August
  • Beta 2 in October (adds tactical battles)
  • Beta 3 in December (polish)
  • Gamma (private) in January
  • Release in February

This is pretty much the same schedule we’ve been doing since Galactic Civilizations I back in 2003.

But imagine this kind of beta instead:

  • Beta 1 in August
  • Beta 2 in January
  • Whatever

So what would be the point of this?  The point would be to make it a lot more fun to develop the game with the beta testers.  Rather than have v1.0 come out in February and then have v1.1 in say April and so on, we simply keep working on the game with the beta testers.

Then, when we release the game, it’s got a ton more stuff. 

Here are some thoughts that come to mind:

How many players should/can we allow in a game? 8? 12? 32?

How sophisticated can we make dungeons in the game?

How sophisticated can we make quests in the game?

How sophisticated can we make tactical battles in the game?

How big of a scope can we give the campaign?

We don’t have the financial pressure to release the game in February and because of that, we have an opportunity to try something we’ve not done that we think might be really special and that is vastly increase the contribution of the beta players into the game than what we’ve done before.

The end result would, I think, be a game that could very well be a classic. A year’s worth of player input before it was released to the general public. 

Tell us what you think.

592,854 views 252 replies
Reply #201 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Jonny5446,

reply 194
Get out of my cave travitar! ..... 

 

 

I thought there was plenty of room in that cave.  Fortunatly I found another cave not too far from that one.  Bit damp, but it'll do.

here, there is a RATHER different cave if one of you wants to occupy it.

Reply #202 from Elemental Forums Top

Wow!  So roomy!  And it's only wet in the places it's supposed to be! 

Sins of a Solar Empire: Rebellion
Reply #203 from Elemental Forums Top

Wow!  So roomy!  And it's only wet in the places it's supposed to be!

Like a hot-dog down a hallway

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Reply #204 from Elemental Forums Top

I don't know what that means.

Reply #205 from Elemental Forums Top

A yes from me.

 

I think it will get features in that usually, and sometimes confusingly, find themselves having to come later on in expansion packs. 

 

Was always befuddled how choosing event frequency wasn't in GC from the get go, for example.

 

I think one of the big things that I'm hoping from an extended beta is some chance to work to also meeting or helping to achieve the needs of the modders, particularly in tools!

Reply #206 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting landisaurus, reply 203
... Like a hot-dog down a hallway

Quoting Aesir, reply 204
I don't know what that means.

landi started drinking rather early?

Reply #207 from Elemental Forums Top

I really love this plan.  It allows those that want to preorder and test/play do it and also help shape the game along side development.  Really great approach.  It's nice not having financial pressure huh?

Reply #208 from Elemental Forums Top

I realize I am definately in the minority, but I am simply much too impatient, I would not like to wait until Q3 for a release.

All of the additional goodness that would be added in by the increased beta length is of course something we would miss, but also something for which I would gladly pay an additional $20 for, assuming that the first expansion might be something which would include such content. I feel that as a consumer (and not primarily a beta tester), I owe it to you to provide you with funds for the goodness you produce.

Of course, I am in the minority, because I am not on the beta team (I simply wont have the time to dedicate, then, sadly) -- I think the majority of people who wrote "YES" many times are on the beta team -- quite obviously, they have nothing to lose and everytihng to gain. I think, however, that this is not fair primarily to YOU, the members of Stardock. So I would plead for: Early release, early first expansion -- for which of course the beta players can work their hearts off.

Thank you for listening and for your constructive criticism.

Reply #209 from Elemental Forums Top

So if stardock will elease the game later, can we then at least get a cheaper pre-ordered retail version in Europe? I want to pre-order but I do not want to pay 20ish euro's for shipping the box. I also do not want to order the downloadable version.

If so then I would be very much in favor of releasing the game in august. If not it seems kinda like a stab in the back for those who do not want to buy the downloadable version. I mean what if the download service will stop in the near future? For this alone I would very much prefer a boxed version.

Reply #210 from Elemental Forums Top

Shurdus: if you buy the game, automatically you have the downloable version for good too. You could destroy the disc (heretic!) and you would still be able to install it as long as have internet access to download the game from Impulse. Also, you can actually burn your own copy to a disc from your download. I haven't done it so I don't remember the details but it's possible. Not saying you shouldn't want a boxed version, just that the download comes with it anyways and can be "boxed" too. Or you know, save those 20€ like... less drinking? Or any other optional habit you may have and from which you could save those extra euros? And unless you live in this ridiculous country named Spain, you are more likely than me to find a copy in your country without having to wait an eternity...

onomastikon: anyone who preorders is in the beta. That they decide to take part or not is their choice but they are in yes or yes. And as beta goes on, it will become more and more stable and you wouldn't be the first that has preordered, isn't interested in beta testing but... well, as you can play it.. why not? You have already paid for it and it's also a good way to make the wait for the Gold product easier. And gives you the chance to provide feedback if you decide to do so. There will be expansions so you will have chances to pay them for more work. And you could always buy more than one (as present to otehr people or like someone, just to support Stardock).

Reply #211 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting onomastikon, reply 208
Of course, I am in the minority, because I am not on the beta team (I simply wont have the time to dedicate, then, sadly) -- I think the majority of people who wrote "YES" many times are on the beta team -- quite obviously, they have nothing to lose and everytihng to gain. I think, however, that this is not fair primarily to YOU, the members of Stardock. So I would plead for: Early release, early first expansion -- for which of course the beta players can work their hearts off.

This is actually the precise reason Stardock (only) lets people who pre-order into betas: they want people with a vested interest in having the game turn out as good as possible.

The proposal to extend the beta cycle flows from the fact that Stardock (as well as a very few fortunate other developers) can afford to take the extra time to produce a superior product, which will pay dividends in the long run. (literally as well as figuratively "goodwill" is an entry on the balance sheet you know. ^_^ ) 

 

Reply #212 from Elemental Forums Top

I don't know what that means.
You don't want to know what that means. Just be sure not to google it, and definately don't search for it on YouTube!

Reply #213 from Stardock Forums Top

You don't want to know what that means. Just be sure not to google it, and definately don't search for it on YouTube!

 

The last time someone said something like that to me, I didn't listen.  To this day, I wish I did.  Two girls, one cup sounded so benign.  I will not look for any hot-dogs down hallways.

Reply #214 from Elemental Forums Top

I'd only be in favor of this if the game is in a playable condition.  I don't generally get involved in beta testing (tried it, don't have the patience for it) so this would mean another year before I can play!!

Reply #215 from Elemental Forums Top

If I can play the game, then for me the game is released. As long as the company behind the game is not in finacial trouble then I would not care if it took them 1 week or 1 decade after I started playing to call the game offically released.

The games I play the most are games that recive continued support over time. From MMO's, to TF2, to civ 4 mods, these games are literally never really done. They just keep adding more and more features over the years.

The upside to an extended beta would be more free content for me and a much better chance of highly positive reviews for the released version which in turn would lead to a greater chance of futher support and features. I honestly can not think of a downside (for me at least).

In fact you already should have deta to back up this being a good idea. You extended the beta for Twilight of the Arnor at least once. This seemed to work out great so it stands to reason it would again.

Reply #216 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting landisaurus, reply 201

Quoting Jonny5446,


reply 194

Get out of my cave travitar! ..... 

 

 

I thought there was plenty of room in that cave.  Fortunatly I found another cave not too far from that one.  Bit damp, but it'll do.

here, there is a RATHER different cave if one of you wants to occupy it.

Ooow good job Landi! Good to have that interloper rehoused from my swanky caverhood ;)

Reply #217 from Elemental Forums Top

Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!

Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!   

Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!

Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!   

Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!

Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!  Yes!!!!!   

 The more I read the forums the more I have this growing feeling that Scoutdog speaks for me....

Reply #218 from Elemental Forums Top

If taking a longer beta approach can avoid the fallout Demigod went through, it will be well worth it.  Also the 2010 early spring / mid-spring release schedule is looking packed with games flipping into 2010.   Gamers have had a peak at the game, maybe one more polished peak over the next E3 / GDC season will spur more sales as well.

 

 

Reply #219 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Wintersong, reply 210
Shurdus: if you buy the game, automatically you have the downloable version for good too. You could destroy the disc (heretic!) and you would still be able to install it as long as have internet access to download the game from Impulse. Also, you can actually burn your own copy to a disc from your download. I haven't done it so I don't remember the details but it's possible. Not saying you shouldn't want a boxed version, just that the download comes with it anyways and can be "boxed" too. Or you know, save those 20€ like... less drinking? Or any other optional habit you may have and from which you could save those extra euros? And unless you live in this ridiculous country named Spain, you are more likely than me to find a copy in your country without having to wait an eternity...

onomastikon: anyone who preorders is in the beta. That they decide to take part or not is their choice but they are in yes or yes. And as beta goes on, it will become more and more stable and you wouldn't be the first that has preordered, isn't interested in beta testing but... well, as you can play it.. why not? You have already paid for it and it's also a good way to make the wait for the Gold product easier. And gives you the chance to provide feedback if you decide to do so. There will be expansions so you will have chances to pay them for more work. And you could always buy more than one (as present to otehr people or like someone, just to support Stardock).
Of course I can save for it, bt I feel that it is not entirely fair to let me pay so much for shipping. Why should I not be allowed to pick up a box in Holland and still pre-order?

Reply #220 from Demigod Forums Top

Why should I not be allowed to pick up a box in Holland and still pre-order?

International retail is handled through third party publishers (which tends to not be finalized until very late in development), and we don't do preorder shelf boxes as you'd find in game stores in any case.

Reply #221 from Elemental Forums Top

Of course I can save for it, bt I feel that it is not entirely fair to let me pay so much for shipping. Why should I not be allowed to pick up a box in Holland and still pre-order?

You should ask yourself "Do I really need the box?". If yes. You always have the option to pre-order and then pick up the boxed version in Holland after it goes into retail. I bet  Stardock would have no objections to selling two copies. ;)

But you always could give the disc and serial number from the box to a friend as a gift since you get your own serial from pre-ordering.

Reply #222 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting kryo, reply 220

Why should I not be allowed to pick up a box in Holland and still pre-order?


International retail is handled through third party publishers (which tends to not be finalized until very late in development), and we don't do preorder shelf boxes as you'd find in game stores in any case.
Hmmm... So if I ordered a boxed version, what kind of box would you send then?

I understand that I could download that game and then burn it, but I actually have no burner at all. :P I had one and it crashed on me and I never got around to replacing it.

Maybe in the end there are is no good reason not to just download the game when the time comes. However I am always a bit suspicious towards these download platforms. They could go offline for good, right?

Reply #223 from Elemental Forums Top

If you order a box from us you'll get the US/NA box shipped upon release (usually Collector's Edition, but that'll be decided later).

If you get the download only, there's not much need to burn it. You don't get an ISO image, so you could just as well use a USB drive to store it away or just rely on the download (no limits).

Reply #224 from Elemental Forums Top

I'm on the fence about preordering. If I do preorder, I'll want to purchase the digital + software version. I can't guarantee, however, that I will have the same address when the game ships (or even if my billing address will be the same). Can I change the address to which the game is sent at a later date?

Reply #225 from Elemental Forums Top

Can I change the address to which the game is sent at a later date?

Although I lack definite authority on this subject but regarding the practices of Stardock in the past I would assume that a mail to [email protected] before the game is released would do the trick. As for the billing adress be aware that you will be charged for the preorder in order to get access to the beta..