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Balance suggestions for next patch wanted

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Balance suggestions for next patch wanted

from Demigod Forums

COLOR SCHEME:

All balance suggestions in this thread are subjective opinions or complaints submitted by posters in this thread.

To highlight how strong others agree or disagree with these opinions I introduced the following color scheme:

  • Plain black/white: Undisputed complaints. No one has offered a different opinion on that point yet.
  • Green: Claim/suggestion is mostly accepted as true.
  • Red: That statement is under debate and no consensus has been reached.
  • Plain/crossed out: Statement is overwhelmingly refuted.
  • Bold/larger font size: Emphasizes the strength of the consensus.

Also, the balance suggestion format is to be interpreted like this (currently reformatting):

  • Skill name/problematic aspect: Here's the description of the issue that bugs the players posting here.
    • Proposed Change 1
    • Proposed Change 2
    • ....
  • Issue 2: ...

Status changes as discussion progresses. Check the update history at the bottom of this post to see which posts have been accounted for.

Read this first! (or at least skim over it)

 

On the whole the current cast of demigods is quite well balanced. A win is mostly decided by skill and less by the choice of your avatar.

Admittedly some builds seem downright overpowering - immortal Sednas for instance - but even those builds can be cracked ... and they usually have a harder time in other aspects of the game, like getting to the point where they are finally awe-inspiring.

I want to know what the experienced players think about the current state of balance (sorry newbs, but getting trashed by tower rooks and not having a clue how to beat them doesn't make rooks overpowered).

Also, I'm not looking for single-skill complaints - everyone knows by now that QoT's Tribute skill sucks (at level 15 at least) - but rather how the overall performance of a demigod skilling strategy compares to the rest of the game.

For example: Regulus has at least three skilling strategies one can pursue: Snipe, Mines, Angelic Fury.
* Clever minelayers are quite feared for their incredible burst damage and can easily dominate careless players but they can be comfortably countered by competent generals. Strong build but not everpowering.
* Snipers deliver unexpected kills from a great distance, frustrating many players that fall victim to him. Can't really be countered, but the skill depends on the target having low health in the first place which means that the snipes rely on the performance on your teammates or the carelessness of the opponent.
* Angelic Fury - er, I played that in the beginning. Are there good builds out there?

Anyway, Regulus has several main paths he can pursue, several pretty strong ones but not so strong that he can't be beaten without the need of a balance patch. But are some of his skills so weak that they will never get picked at all? If so, how should the change happen?

 

Please post your opinions and suggestions and I'll do my best to summarize the general consensus (btw, the initial QoT summary is solely my perception of her. Additional opinions welcome).

 

Lord Erebus

Build Strategies:


Summary:

Balance Suggestions:

  • Coven: Erebus Minion builds are currently perceived as strong and cheap.
    • Nerf slightly (4/6/8 minions). (It's been suggested that only a certain item causes troubles - not the minions themselves)
    • First point of Coven is too strong. Distribute benefits over the levels (4/7/10).
  • Improved Conversion Aura: Same as Coven, minion builds appear overpowered to some.
    • Reduce health gain slightly  (100,200,300) (It's been suggested that only a certain item causes troubles - not the minions themselves)
  • Mist: Can be kept up indefinetly with the right items. Makes Erebus practically unkillable.
    • Add a max duration.
  • Bat swarm: Range 30 at level 2/3 too great? Also, Bat Swarm is interruptable (really? Never noticed.)
    • slightly reduce range at lvl 2/3 (20-25 range)
    • Make Bat Swarm uninterruptable (currently has 0.1 sec casting time.)
  • Bite: Still one of the most useful skills.
    • Nerf the speed debuff on victims
  • Stun: Due to long casting time this skill cannot be used as reliable interrupt.
    • Reduce casting time-

 

Oak

Build Strategies:


Summary:

Balance Suggestions:

  • Soul Power: One point into this skill is very well worth it if you're getting minions, preferably early on so you also can take advantage of the passive bonus to the fullest. But getting level 2 and 3 is a lot harder to justify, since level 1 grants a static +20 damage boost plus the damage boost depending on the number of active spirits.
    • Increase or distribute the effectiveness of damage boost throughout all three skill levels.
  • Last Stand: The trigger animation lasts too long, giving the victorious demigod enough time to flee to safety.
    • Reduce trigger animation duration. Skip the fall-then-rise animation, and give Oak a damage buff depending on the number of minions he had when he died (level 1). Level 2, make Oak give any nearby allies a temporary bonus (ala SoF, without the dmg) when he dies.
    • Keep the obvious trigger animation but increase movement speed buff. Let them run but let Oak catch up.
    • Remove the bonus (both for him and allies) when hitting buildings, to avoid fortress-exploits and similar multi-Oak strats. (meh, I like the kamikaze demolisher strategy)
  • Shield: Level 1/2 too strong since they remove debuffs. Description says otherwise: Only Shield 3+4 should do so.
    • Remove the debuffing feature of Shield 1+2 (it's not THAT strong. look at the recharge time of shield).

Queen of Thorns

 

Build strategies:

  • Minion build: Shamblers+Entourage+Compost. Support with shield, spikes, mulch.
  • Shield Support build: Shield+Spikes+Goddess of Thorns. Support with shamblers
  • Siege Support build: Shield+Uproot+Spikes. Support with compost/shamblers.

Summary:

QoT fares bad with every build against every Demigod. Sure, at the beginning she has great staying power, comparable to tower rooks. But she will barely ever land a kill. Her dps and burst damage are low. Popping into open form for spikes/spike wave/uproot consumes much time. Theoretically a combo of ground spikes, spike wave and mulch could deal heavy burst damage, but the delay between form switching makes that unfeasable.

She has only two feasible ways of playing her: Support and Siege.

Balancing Suggestions:

  • Shield: Shield doesn't scale well at higher levels. Also takes unmitigated damage (which kinda makes sense).
    • Improve Shield strength by granting it more hitpoints.
    • Let personal shield take mitigated damage. Switching all shields to mitigated damage would make your team tanks nearly invulnerable. But if armor may influence the damage taken by the Shield QoT casts on herself, then it offers a good compromise. Could be an extra level 15 skill. Maybe balance that out by increasing cooldown.
  • Form switching: Popping out for spikes is highly risky. That tactic can become feasible again if you can cast spikes faster after switching forms ... and close faster after coming out.
    • Reduce time and casting delay
    • Keep auto attacking while switching forms
  • Open form: The closed form bonuses are great. So great that no one wants to play in open form, eliminating the desire for any aggressive QoT build.
    • Add passive bonus to open form! Give her open form AoE attacks (maybe even larger ones) attack speed bonus, minion bonus, whatever. Has the added advantage of seeing more QoT on the field in all her naked glory.
    • Reduce attack range to effect range of Ground Spikes.
  • Tribute: Available too late to make any difference.
    • Make Tribute available earlier.
    • Replace Tribute instead. Add a skill to improve Shambler effectiveness either by increasing dps or range/AoE of their autoattack.
  • Uproot: Universally regarded as weak. Only works against buildings and offers zero other uses (unlike Rooks structural transfer, which at least provides health).
    • Allow it to reduce the damage the tower does over the duration(-10,-20,-30,-40)
    • Add stun effect to affected buildings (reducing damage to 0).
    • Add a 'shaking' effect at the spot, slowing down units nearby? Uproot on a tower as a snare could be an interesting if limited effect, that would also synergize with the level 15 ability. (Maybe even add a chance to interrupt enemy DGs ?)
    • Make uproot target the ground and provide an area effect. Nice anti tower rook effect.
  • Summon Shambler: Shamblers are expensive, low on health and plainly ineffective. Too many skills are needed to make them somewhat useful.
    • reduce level 1 mana cost to 200. (Um, only Shambler 1?)
    • reduce mana cost of all summon shambler skills by 200.
    • reduce amount of skill points needed to make shamblers useful, i.e. buff up support skills and remove some levels.
    • merge the Entourage skill into summon shambler, basically making them stronger and making the minion tree less skill point intensive.
  • Mulch: Mulch has only limited use since it only works on the expensive Shamblers.
    • Make mulch work on every unit, not just Shamblers. However, only Shamblers will explode for damage. (I like the idea. Fits her character.)
  • Entourage: Only affects Shamblers.
    • Give combat bonus to other minions, too.
  • Compost: Only affects Shamblers and Uproot.
    • Give combat bonus to other minions, too.
    • Give a combat bonus to QoT herself, too.
  • General suggestions:
    • QoT has no stun. Give her one.

 

 

Regulus

Build Strategies:

  • Minelayer
  • Sniper

Summary:

Balance Suggestions:

  • Dead Eye: Current implementation appears ... weak.
    • Buff either chance or duration while auto attacking
    • Change to work with Snipe only but give a 1 second stun 100% of the time
  • Mines: Stepping into a full mine field can spell instant death (6*450=2700 damage) (only if you're dumb enough to waltz into it. Caution against minelayer Regs.)
    • Nerf mines. Every part of them. (Mines are strong, yeah, but they are quite easily countered simply by walking! Experience helps.)
    • Increase Spread of mines
    • increase casting time

Rook

Build Strategies:

  • Tower Rooks
  • Rook ninjas
  • Rook assassin

Summary:

Balance Suggestions:

  • Structural Transfer: Limited utility and nearly useless inside of combat because it's too easy to interrupt
    • Make it uninterruptable.
    • ST should leech mana. Energizer does something similar at level 15, but it's late (when everyone has interrupts) and only increases mana regeneration (by 150%) instead of leeching. (Personally I think that would make him overpowered)
    • Structural Transfer should repair own buildings. Interesting idea. Eat enemy and summoned towers but repair your own fixed defenses (with what? Health? That makes for some interesting tactical choices. This would prevent him from emergency munch his team's fixed defenses, though.)
  • Power of the Tower: Towers are overpowered (sigh...)
    • Nerf towers. Reduce health and attack speed. (deeper sigh...)
  • Base Attributes:
    • Increase movement speed from 5.4 to 5.5 or 5.6 (matter under debate. slowness is part of his design. besides: Rook has ranged attacks.)
    • Increase armor (well, he does have the lowest armor in the game, despite being a big walking castle)
  • Boulder Roll:
    • Increase Damage (dunno. BR is usually used in conjunction with Hammer Smash, which means LOTS of damage).
    d
  • Hammer Slam: Apparently it doesn't deal enough damage.
    • More damage late game.

Sedna

Build Strategies:

  • Heal & Pounce - Good burst damage and extremely high passive and active healing capabilities. Nearly immortal.

Summary:

Passive and active self-healing skills can make Sedna nearly immortal. Her Pounce deals good damage and doubles as an interrupt. Silence interrupts, too, and prevents skill usage alltogether for some time in a large area. One of the strongest - if not the strongest - demigods around when played correctly. In fact, her healing builds are so strong that every other build of hers that isn't a variation of that becomes obsolete.

Balance Suggestions:

  • Summon Yetis: They  suck. Too often Yetis can't reach the enemy because some midgets stand in their way.
    • Remove or reduce collision area or improve pathfinding of Yetis.
    • They are too weak for their cost. Make them stronger.
    • Yetis should do splash damage at all levels, something like 15/30/45/60%
  • Wild Swings: By that time this skill's usefullness is limited.
    • Yetis should either have a 50% chance to knock small units into the air or a 10% chance to deal 1.5x damage.
  • Inner Grace: Right now this skill only improves Sedna herself (but quite decently).
    • Additionally increase Yeti damage by 10% per level.
    • Apply all current bonus effects from Inner Grace to Yetis.
  • Silence: Expensive
    • Reduce casting cost of  Silence 1 from 800 to 750 (I didn't have the impression that Sedna is particulary weak. And the suggested change doesn't really seem significant.)
  • Healing Wind: As a +24 hps aura is a decent enough skill without needing the uber healing upgrade to priests. Especially regarding High Priests.
    • Nerf actual bonus to minion healers from 15/18/20/22 to 13/15/17/19 (I think it's good as it is. Minus the High Priest bug).
    • High Priests (level 3 monk idol) heal 30%, which is plainly a bug. Correct that bug!
  • Heal: The Basic heal for Sedna is just too good early game.  You can heal significantly more ability damage per mana than anyone can deal.
    • Nerf Heal from 600/900/1200/1500 to 450/900/1350/1800). This makes the effect strictly worse until level 7, and then it gets a little better.
    • Increase cooldown from 7 to 10 seconds.

Torch Bearer

Build Strategies:

  • Pure Fire
  • Pure Ice
  • Hybrid AoE master.

Summary:

 

Balance Suggestions:

  • Permafrost/Fire Aura: Auras stay active for a short time in the other mode. Too short?
    • Increase aura duration slightly when switching between fire/ice form. (How long do they last anyway?)
  • Circle of Fire: Increases damage, but not size.
    • Vary radius of Circle of Fire as it levels.
  • Deep Freeze: This interrupt is too slow for some.
    • Make it instant instead of 0.1 sec
  • Basic Attributes: Ice TB can attack while moving. Fire TB can't. Also, mode switching costs lot's of time.
    • Enable auto attack while moving in fire mode!
    • Reduce time it costs to switch from ice to fire mode.

Unclean Beast

Build Strategies:

  • Spitting Beast
  • Oozing Beast
  • Hybrib Spit-Ooze Build

Summary:

 

Balance Suggestions:

  • Spit: Too strong. And apparently there are issues regarding spit stacking and feeling counterintuitive. (I have no idea what that means).
    • Increase the cooldown on spit to 10 seconds.
    • make Spit not work on towers.
  • Foul Grasp: Bad scaling. No incentive to invest more than 1 skill point. Also quite expensive.
    • Change  to 1.5/2/2.5 seconds of stun.  Makes it a smidge weaker early on, and makes it worthwhile to get more points in later on. (It's been suggested that an increased stun is actually a nerf due to the current foul grasp mechanics. See here.)
    • Reduce Mana cost.
  • Bestial Wrath: BW is too expensive and cast time is too long.
    • Reduce Mana cost by 100
    • add attack speed bonus (+5/10/15/20%) (um, UB already attacks very fast at higher levels. fastest attacker in the game, in fact)
    • Reduce cast time to 0.3
    • Add a movespeed bonus.
    • Increase effect duration
    • Temporary life leech effect.
  • Acclimatization: Skill is too good, giving UB a strong advantage against heavy hitters (like Hammer Slam).
    • Nerf damage reduction to 25%.
    • Let it trigger only once very 10 seconds.
    • Nerf is somehow. (It's accepted that this skill is maybe too good. )
  • Ooze: Free damage and powerful debuff. Only costs health.
    • Make it cost mana when activated

ITEMS

  • Horn of Battle:  Abusing this item allows generals to hoard minions and send them unscathed directly to the enemy citadel, destroying it with several tries. Also, the effect applies to newly summoned minions even after the horn was used.
    • Nerf range of horn effect so only minions close to the caster are affected.
    • Don't let the effect work on minions summoned after using the horn.
  • heaven's wrath: too good mid/late game for pushing (and early game for leveling)
    • increase its cooldown by 30 seconds. (it already has 45 sec cooldown. Item is ok by my book)
  • Heart of Life: who uses it now?
    • reduce cost of HoL. Maybe 10000?
  • blood of the fallen: Health bonus too great.
    • slightly reduce from 800 to 750. (big deal. change barely matters. and to lower hp further makes it worse than charm of life)
  • caplock:
    • increase cooldown slightly(2-5 secs) (don't fix what ain't broke)
  • All artifact consumbles: Too expensive.
    • reduce costs
  • journeyman's treads: movement speed bonus too powerful
    • nerf movement speed from 50% to 40%
  • Armor of Vengeance
    • Increase trigger chance from 1% to something higher
  • Platemail of the Cusader
    • Increase trigger chance from 1% to something higher
  • Parasite Egg: It's high cost makes it nearly prohibitive, even though the effect is interesting.
    • Reduce it's cost from 5000g to maybe 3000g.

Update history:

  1. Included Schobbos reply#1 criticism of QoT Tribute & minion damage.
  2. Aeris130 reply#2 Oak complaints.
  3. Color scheme for marking disputed complaints/suggestions.
  4. ItchyDustbin #7 & Schobbo #1 Yeti remarks.
  5. StAcK3D_ActR #4 remarks. Some of them, at least.
  6. Polynomial #10 and rest of StAcK3D_ActR #4. Alphabetical DG order.
  7. Added suggestions from #11 -#25
  8. Added suggestions from Obscenitor #27 and repeated suggestions from Shadow (sorry it took so long). Painted Erebus minion nerf suggestions red as result.
  9. Added #29
  10. Added #32
  11. Moved color-index to top at request of abuggeredhedgie #39. Added #37 suggestions excluding the Ooze one which I didn't understand.
  12. Acknowledged posts up to #46 (boy this is work. This should be done by forum administrators, honestly).
  13. Acknowledged posts up to #52. Added items. Didn't include items that had no real complaint or suggestions. (sorry, stacked)
  14. Acknowledged posts up to #75. Mostly quarrels between Sedna & Erebus - em - experts.
  15. Acknowledged posts up to #92.
  16. Acknowledged posts up to #132
  17. Acknowledged posts up to #143
  18. Acknowledged posts up to #157

demigod
288,835 views 161 replies
Reply #51 from Demigod Forums Top

I think OAK is ok

 

UB = u guys wrote the write things

 

Queen = Yeah need some good late game skills, and with the shamblers also nice GJ

 

Sedna = Healing bug should be fixed, i cant say anything about yetis

 

Rook = The i dont think that structural transfer is good how it works, but im not a good rook player maybe u are right :)

 

Regulus = with the 100% Stun thing is rly cool, again GJ

 

TB = yeah the autofire bug should be fixed.

 

 

In the end i have to say rly good job and this post is great.

 

 

cheers

Reply #52 from Demigod Forums Top

reduce range slightly on batswarm lvl 2/3 (25 range)
I'm not sure why you've listed this change; the ability is designed to allow Erebus to get into and out of a battle and it does this quite well however still requires proper planning to be effective.

the reason is for this nerf is because the range of batswarm is double(30) that of cloak of the night(15) and warpstone(15)

Also, no on the 5.6 move speed for Rook. Besides being a fiddle for fiddle's sake, it makes Rook the fastest Demigod on the map if he's got Swift Anklet.

ah good find. possibly 5.5? after swift anklet they would still be slower than UB and erebuses base movement speed.

other balance changes:

heaven's wrath is too good mid/late game for pushing, increase its cooldown by 30 seconds.

reduce cost of HoL, who uses it now?

slightly reduce blood of the fallen (750)

increase caplock cooldown slightly(2-5 secs)

fix all items in consumble artifact shop, reduce costs

rework vinling helmet and theurgist's cap

rework armor of vengence, platemail of the crusader, groffling warplate

reduce journeyman's treads movement speed proc to 40%

note: the main reason im putting these here is to see your opinion on the items listed, because this is a good thread!

 

 

Object Desktop - Get all of our enhancement utilities in one suite
Reply #53 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting Obscenitor, reply 2

the reason is for this nerf is because the range of batswarm is double(30) that of cloak of the night(15) and warpstone(15)

That's exactly why it needs to stay as it is - if everyone could use this same ability but as a favour item, what would be the point of Erebus having it as an ability in the first place? I don't see a favour item granting the user Archers and a Trebuchet equal to that of Rooks, why should it be the case here?

Reply #54 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting ZehDon, reply 3

That's exactly why it needs to stay as it is - if everyone could use this same ability but as a favour item, what would be the point of Erebus having it as an ability in the first place? I don't see a favour item granting the user Archers and a Trebuchet equal to that of Rooks, why should it be the case here?

I think it should stay the initial range of 20. There are very few counters to blinking, in order to kill Erebus you need to stun-lock or silence, which are pretty specific abilities. If you could use your own blink item to be nearly as fast as he was then in conjunction with a slow you'd actually be able to kill the bastard. As it stands bat swarm goes twice as far as the other two, and in conjunction with his high base move speed means you can't realistically chase.

another balance change: heaven's wrath is too good mid/late game for pushing, increase its cooldown by 30 seconds.

I have no idea what you're talking about...explain how 250 AoE damage is useful lategame. I always thought it was better as an early game item.

Reply #55 from Demigod Forums Top

I have no idea what you're talking about...explain how 250 AoE damage is useful lategame. I always thought it was better as an early game item.

it is too easy to control the map with.

up until catas you can destroy whole creep wave pushes without having to be there. there is nothing wrong with the damage.

That's exactly why it needs to stay as it is - if everyone could use this same ability but as a favour item, what would be the point of Erebus having it as an ability in the first place?

its also not because everyone else can get a blink ability, its because erebus can also get all 3 of them at the same time.

Reply #57 from Demigod Forums Top

Also, no on the 5.6 move speed for Rook. Besides being a fiddle for fiddle's sake, it makes Rook the fastest Demigod on the map if he's got Swift Anklet.
What?  5.6*1.1<6.3.  He's still slower then EB/UB and anyone else who also takes the swift anklet.

Reply #58 from Demigod Forums Top

he's still slower then EB/UB and anyone else who also takes the swift anklet.

swift anklet is +15% movement speed :P

Reply #59 from Demigod Forums Top

reduce cost of HoL, who uses it now?
What would be a fair price?  Maybe 10k?  Honestly even at 8k I think it would be overpowered in its current state. It's just such a goofy item at the moment.  Demigoddb hasn't updated it so just off the top of my head (look at how well that worked last time) I think it's 4500 hp/mana over 10 seconds?  However the +mana is affected by % mana so it ends up being 1k mana per second for most people, meaning 3-5 seconds and you're good to go if your health is otherwise okay, and the thing is affected by cooldown flags and the staff of renewal.

I just don't know what numbers it would need to get it to be used more frequently without being used by everyone all the time again.

Reply #60 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting StAcK3D_ActR, reply 5
its also not because everyone else can get a blink ability, its because erebus can also get all 3 of them at the same time.

Yes, true. However via a combination of Favour Items and purchased Items, any Demigod can exploit the benefits of playing said Demigod. That's actually why the items exist - to develop new and interesting strategies. I, personally, feel Batswarm is fine.

Quoting Obscenitor, reply 9
I just don't know what numbers it would need to get it to be used more frequently without being used by everyone all the time again.

I agree. I still feel that HoL needed a significant price hike, however now - compared to other items of a similar value - it's never selected. I'll admit I was wrong, in that I thought it would still be used, however during any game where it becomes available, there are always better options in terms of items to select. 8k, and a set Mana amount, might make it slightly more appealing?

Reply #61 from Demigod Forums Top

Ooze is too good late game too, it should drain mana too, make it drain 15/20/25/30 mana per second.

Huh?

Reply #62 from Demigod Forums Top

Just some of my thoughts about main post:

Lord Erebus

Balance Suggestions:

  • Batswarm: slightly reduce range at lvl 2/3 (25 range)

Well 20 range is enought imo. More distance just let people use more bugs (jumping over wholes and corners on different maps).

Still I think Vampire is really too good. Bite shouldn't decrease movement speed (and for sure not 30% !!). It's just too easy for Vampire to tp to someone, bite him, and that person is certinatelly dead (with -30% speed everyone will catch you). Beside, why Vampire need that speed decrease, if he has batswarm and is 5% faster from the beggining than any other demigod ?

Just think about that - Vampire can hide and take off ALL his debuffs (mist), teleport when running away or chasing (batswarm), reduce movement speed by 30% (bite), reduce armor by 700 (bite), stun all enemies around (mass charm), got free minions even without putting single point in that ability, and still got skill to increase his hp recovery +20 hp every second. Isn't that just too much in single char ?

Oak

Balance Suggestions:

  • Soul Power: Increase or distribute the effectiveness of damage boost throughout all three skill levels.One point into this skill is very well worth it if you're getting minions, preferably early on so you also can take advantage of the passive bonus to the fullest. But getting level 2 and 3 is a lot harder to justify, since level 1 grants a static +20 damage boost plus the damage boost depending on the number of active spirits.

I don't think increasing Oak's attack power is the best solution here. Still, the bonus is max +10 dmg (so first soul power will give you max 30 dmg). Second it will be 50, third 70. It's good as it is now. +40 additional dmg (from lvl 2 and 3 of Soul Power) is like free passive bonus from gloves (3300 ones). That's surely worth considering.

 

Queen of Thorns

QoT Tribute gives additional +4 gold / sec (not 2 like you wrote). That's a lot, but still, lvl 15 is definatelly too late. I think it should be avaliable from lvl 10, so it will make NOTICABLE change (especially in longer games).

Changing form really takes too much time. It should be faster a bit. Still I think open form shouldn't give you additional bonuses. Open form is like siege form, closed one is defensive. So you should use opened form just from time to time, when situation needs that, otherwise you should return to closed form to gain additional bonuses from it. That's ok imo.

 

Rook

Structural Transfer is great skill and I hope it won't be changed. Sure you can easly interrupt it, but that's how it should work imo. You can easly regen your hp with it (from your own tower), don't need to return to base. So it's usefull right now and really I can't agree it needs changes.

But I agree, Rook should have increased speed a bit. 5.4 is really slow comparing to other chars and their abilities (especially slowing ones). 5.6 should be ok here.

 

Sedna

Well Sedna is a big "problem" IMO. People are saying Yeti's sux. The thing is, Sedna has SO MANY great skills, Yetis are just nothing comparing to them.

Your proposition of "nerfing heal" is really BUFFING it. I really think healing skill is a bit too good, same as Vampire's bite. Even now on Cataract, Sedna can heal EVERY 5 seconds (can make it even 3 sec on higher lvls with two -15% cooldown flags !!). That's just too frequent. Buffing heal from 1500 to 1800 will make Sedna even more almost impossible to kill than she is now ! I think Sedna's heal base cooldown should increase from 7 to 10 seconds (cooldown flags will decrease the 3s difference anyway) OR Sedna's healing cooldown shouldn't be decreased by -cooldown items/skills/flags (so it should always be 7 sec). Similar change could apply to Vampire's bite also.

 

Torch Bearer

Well just don't make Circle of Fire radius higher than 15. It will be to easy to kill towers without even being hitted once. Fireball is powerfull enought to do that. So if You really like to change CoF radius, it should be something like: 12/13/14/15. But that will make TB weaker, isn't it ? So maybe that shouldn't be changed at all ?

I don't think time of switching form should be reduced. It will be too easly to use 2 AoE skills and still use some other skills meantime.

 

Unclean Beast

Well the thing I know for sure, UB's 2s stun is good enought and it shouldn't be increased to 2.5s (on highest lvl). It will be too long. Beast is powerfull as it is now.

I think stacking hp on beast need change. Beast is the char which really don't need mana !! You just got enought basic mana to use 2x split and 1x stun. Enought to kill anyone. That's the reason why many ppl are using 5 hp items (sometimes 4 hp items + 1 speed). And we see beasts with 7.5k hp then. Beast attack is high enought to kill most of demigods without even using single skill !!
Maybe Demigods need some limitation on hp you can stack ? Like basic hp on specific lvl * 70% ? It will give max 4700 hp for beast at lvl 10 (5848 hp at lvl 15), and make it more challenging to collect right gear (to not pass that limit).

 

 

BTW: Still I think we are just wasting out time, writing those propositions. You can't really think GPG will consider any of those changes ? Check how many topics were here about changes needs to be made. The biggest problem with that topics is, everyone writes their feelings about balancing. And, not hard to guess, everyone has their own opinion about things that need changes :)

Reply #64 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting abuggeredhedgie, reply 14
First, OP, move the color-index to the top. I completely misunderstood the list at first (thought color was referring to nerf/boost).


Good point. Done.

Quoting abuggeredhedgie, reply 14

Also, OP, please don't base the bolds purely off of a 'I posted here, my voice counts'. Please give more thoughtful posts that back advice a heavier voice. Anyone who just quotes 'THIS' shouldn't give a vote. (For example, most of my latter stuff was just generalizing, not too important).

I THINK THAT THERE SHOULD BE AN I WIN BUTTON.

^^ THIS

^^^ THIS

Am I bolded yet?

Haha, I'll keep that in mind. ^_^

And you may call me Aroddo. :P

Quoting abuggeredhedgie, reply 25

Didn't the OP basically say "tower rooks are not OP. l2p. Why are we still talking about this...

Ah, just because I said so doesn't mean that it's true. I just think it is. And I'm pretty damn sure I'm right. :)

 

Quoting Poul, reply 12

BTW: Still I think we are just wasting out time, writing those propositions. You can't really think GPG will consider any of those changes ? Check how many topics were here about changes needs to be made. The biggest problem with that topics is, everyone writes their feelings about balancing. And, not hard to guess, everyone has their own opinion about things that need changes

Aw no, now you did it: You voiced my hidden fear.

Well, if I'm honest with myself then I do have to ask myself why Demigod doesn't seem to be embraced by the competetive gaming community. Is it because the game sucks? Or because GPG has a reputation for ignoring customer input? Or worse, because GPG has no reputation at all because their products are too insignificant for the esport community? Or is Blizzard simply too overpowering? Or is 3 months simply not enough time?

I honestly think that Demigod is a great game. And it's incredibly beautiful ... not just cool-graphics beautiful. It's a work of art. Paint the maps on linen and put them in a museum. Really, they are that beautiful.

But communication from GPG to us is abysmal. I honestly have no idea if anything we think has any influence on anything GPG does.

Ok, granted, GPG claims it's developing a clan-addon and two more demigods for free. And the game shipped with loads of connectivity issues and the pantheon database behaved erratic, so I acknowledge they have other priorities.

But still, I can't help but feeling ignored.

Don't let that stop you from posting suggestions,ok ?!

Reply #65 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting Poul, reply 12
Well 20 range is enought imo. More distance just let people use more bugs (jumping over wholes and corners on different maps).

This is a benefit of the ability. Even with a Range of 20 he'll still be able to move over corners, however as the ability is both a surprise attack and an escape tool, you have to use it carefully otherwise you've robbed yourself of your best escape method. Lowering the range would limit it's usefullness greatly as any speed reducing ability applied before the swarm should allow the pursuers to catch Erebus, and believe me; swarming doesn't always save your life. Limiting the range would make the swarm a complete waste of an ability slot as it removes it's primary purpose; escaping.

Quoting Poul, reply 12
Still I think Vampire is really too good. Bite shouldn't decrease movement speed (and for sure not 30% !!). It's just too easy for Vampire to tp to someone, bite him, and that person is certinatelly dead (with -30% speed everyone will catch you). Beside, why Vampire need that speed decrease, if he has batswarm and is 5% faster from the beggining than any other demigod ?

He needs the Speed Decrease for his minions, as the debuff enable them to catch their target, otherwise the moment a Demigod of equal speed runs away the minions are useless as they won't catch their target to deal damage. Removing the speed decrease would limit the effectiveness of a minion build greatly, and force minion build Erebus' to stack Speed Plus effects other wise minions are only really good for stationary targets. Removing the slowing effect also makes the 'problem' your trying to solve greater because now instead of a slow effect debuff that the Erebus can only apply if close to you, you've now got a much faster Erebus and minion swarm with him permantly, and ruined an ability in the process.

Quoting Poul, reply 12
Just think about that - Vampire can hide and take off ALL his debuffs (mist), teleport when running away or chasing (batswarm), reduce movement speed by 30% (bite), reduce armor by 700 (bite), stun all enemies around (mass charm), got free minions even without putting single point in that ability, and still got skill to increase his hp recovery +20 hp every second. Isn't that just too much in single char ?

Hardly. You're talking like every Erebus can teleport instantly across the map with a complete compliment of completely upgraded minions and then one shot a Demigod, tank down another, mist to remove debuffs, heal himself to full health with Bite, killing another, and teleport back to base to upgrade to priests before anyone knows what's what. This is not the case. I recommend you play Erebus and learn him, as it's obvious you've played against him more often than as him. You'll see why these changes are a bad idea - with the exception of the lowering the additional health buff for minions. Being as the minions are free, I see this as an acceptable alteration, however I would like to see their DPS upgraded to compensate for this.

Reply #66 from Demigod Forums Top

Well, if I'm honest with myself then I do have to ask myself why Demigod doesn't seem to be embraced by the competetive gaming community...

I honestly think that Demigod is a great game. And it's incredibly beautiful ... not just cool-graphics beautiful. It's a work of art. Paint the maps on linen and put them in a museum. Really, they are that beautiful.

you just answered your own question, games like starcraft, counterstrike, dota dont have amazing graphics, their primary focus is gameplay!

competitive people dont care for graphics at all, they just want to win games.

@ZehDon's wall of text:

ur post is riddled with your love of erebus :P

Reply #67 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting Poul, reply 12
Well Sedna is a big "problem" IMO. People are saying Yeti's sux. The thing is, Sedna has SO MANY great skills, Yetis are just nothing comparing to them.

Sedna's current ownage build is "full," meaning there is no room to take Yetis without giving up something important. Therefore buffing Yetis would not represent a simple increase in Sedna effectiveness, rather it would hopefully make a second type of Sedna viable. But in all likelyhood unless Yetis get buffed to a ridiculous level, they still wont be used and on the whole Sedna will remain unchanged. 


Your proposition of "nerfing heal" is really BUFFING it. I really think healing skill is a bit too good, same as Vampire's bite. Even now on Cataract, Sedna can heal EVERY 5 seconds (can make it even 3 sec on higher lvls with two -15% cooldown flags !!). That's just too frequent. Buffing heal from 1500 to 1800 will make Sedna even more almost impossible to kill than she is now ! I think Sedna's heal base cooldown should increase from 7 to 10 seconds (cooldown flags will decrease the 3s difference anyway) OR Sedna's healing cooldown shouldn't be decreased by -cooldown items/skills/flags (so it should always be 7 sec). Similar change could apply to Vampire's bite also.

Sedna with Cooldown flag heals once per 5.95s, or 5.46/5.11/4.76s at levels 1-3 of Magnificent Presence, which almost no one has time to get until levels 15+. While those are nice cooldowns, its perfectly possible for a coordinated offense to outrun Heal, especially later in the game when spell-based DGs start being overwhelmed by autoattackers. Good Sedna builds that health stack don't have mana to spam heal that often for any extended period, anyways. Personally the prospect of nerfing its early power but increasing its late power seems exactly right to me, especially since everyone is crying for the High Priest nerf. 

Well the thing I know for sure, UB's 2s stun is good enought and it shouldn't be increased to 2.5s (on highest lvl). It will be too long. Beast is powerfull as it is now.

But a player could only get the 2.5s stun by investing two extra points in Grasp, which is fair. 

Just think about that - Vampire can hide and take off ALL his debuffs (mist), teleport when running away or chasing (batswarm), reduce movement speed by 30% (bite), reduce armor by 700 (bite), stun all enemies around (mass charm), got free minions even without putting single point in that ability, and still got skill to increase his hp recovery +20 hp every second. Isn't that just too much in single char ?

You could make some goofy list like that for almost any DG. Oak can slow down enemies, amplify the damage dealt to a particular enemy, increase the attack speed of himself and his allies, increase the move speed of himself and his allies, interrupt, has two sources of direct damage, regenerate health and mana by killing creeps, passively increase his autoattack power, summon a horde of minions, can turn himself or an ally invincible for several seconds while removing negative effects. And if he ever dies, he gets up and smashes you! 

So no, Erebus is fine. He has a unique set of strengths just like any other DG. 

heaven's wrath is too good mid/late game for pushing, increase its cooldown by 30 seconds.

In my premade we refer to that item as the "noob cannon." Its completely terrible. Why in the world should we nerf it?

Reply #68 from Demigod Forums Top

Grasp needs
Quoting Busdude, reply 18
Total bullshit. It is literally impossible to drive a Rook away from a flag if he has 3 or more towers up at it by yourself, and even with an ally, it can be frustrating. Don't tell me to stack armor, I do stack it, they still do roughly 80-85 damage a hit (it's like 115-120 without stacked armor) and they have attack almost once a second. It takes about 7-10 auto-attacks to bring one down, and in that time, you'll probably take around 600-700 damage from it, and that's just from one tower. AoE abilites? Go ahead and deplete your mana pool just to take out towers. O yea it's only 400 mana to replace it, 200 if he's maxed it out. Leaving Rook alone isn't an option, he'll rape all your towers on that side of the map if you do. "double team him" is not valid advice because first of all, your team will be at a disadvantage in the rest of the map, not to mention what's stopping one of his allies from coming over.

Every single Rook that I've ever seen that did not spec in towers failed, whether on my team or with the enemy. Failed in varying degrees, but still failed. I've read on these forums that apparently some people play slam Rooks, or AA-buff, or speed-buff Rooks really well without using towers or with minimal use, but I don't remember ever coming across one. I guess I'll believe it can be done, but extremely rare to actually see it.

Honestly, it's just a matter of experience. True, in early game they easily hold lanes. But by now we have developed multiple strategies to deal with tower farms, the most basic one being to attack with creeps.

You're not the first to run into the tower problem. :)

Rook is very well balanced. His assassin build does work - it demands an unusual choice of items, though. Tower rook is simply straight forward and effective. Rook ninjas are based on tower rooks and are pretty devastating to the enemy base. Three distinct playing styles and all of them viable. I think Rook is the best designed Demigod.

Reply #69 from Demigod Forums Top

re: heavean's wrath:

Quoting SoFFacet, reply 17

In my premade we refer to that item as the "noob cannon." Its completely terrible. Why in the world should we nerf it?

Okay, to what degree would we have to buff it for you to consider using it?

Reply #70 from Demigod Forums Top

In my premade we refer to that item as the "noob cannon." Its completely terrible. Why in the world should we nerf it?

you can farm xp and gold on the other side of the map.

you can control the map, mainly 3v3 and 2v2 maps as they only have 2 portals that spawn creeps, you are taking 1 out of the equation.

it is not terrible. think of pushing strategies that you can make with it.

Reply #71 from Demigod Forums Top

you can farm xp and gold on the other side of the map.

Only useful if for some reason you've got no other DG in that lane. 

you can control the map, mainly 3v3 and 2v2 maps as they only have 2 portals that spawn creeps, you are taking 1 out of the equation.

You can kill some stupid creeps and then watch as the DG with an actual favor item pushes you out of your lane. Its terrible. 

Reply #72 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting StAcK3D_ActR,


@ZehDon's wall of text:

ur post is riddled with your love of erebus

Thats what almost all posts are about, aren't they ?

For me, people seems to ignore some facts, and just think about character they are playing the most. It's like with beast and it's easy hp stacking. You really don't need ANY personal skill to buy 5 +hp items and just chase others with your 7k+ hp build. It's easy to see in Pantheon, how hard is to fight against Beast + Vampire team. The truth is, imo Vampire is unkillable, and it's not a joke. If you meet good Vampire player, you just can't kill him. He can always tp out of battle (but he don't really need to !!). The only way you can kill Vampire is his own mistake (not getting out of the battle soon enought, not using mist when spited or tracked, being too greedy etc). I can't say that about any other demigod. Especially... because of Vampire. He can tp to any char, bite / stun... and it's done (especially in premade team). Vamp can even chase other Demigods through towers. Just jump the towers, and you won't get many hits - but still, you will regen all that by just 1 bite !!

Well thats of course my opinion, and I'm not saying Vampire is easy to play char. Still I think in right hands, it's just unkillable with all his abilities. Vampire just has no weaknesses.

 

So in my previous post I tried to say, in my opinion Vampire and Sedna (because of heal cooldown affected by flags etc) are a bit too good chars compaing to others. The weakest char for me seems to be QoT, because changing form takes so much time (without shield QoT just can't fight others). Not mentioning how annoying form changing is...

 

BTW: Yes, I don't play as a Vampire often, but I played many games with different chars and see some things which I don't like. I remember when GPG said they will nerf Vampire's bite from 900 to 700. People was just screaming here how unplayable this char will be. So they nerfed it to 775. And I think Vampire is just still too good. Cataract = bite every 5 sec. So you heal like with regular pot for free every 5 seconds, and doing dmg same time. Sure Vampire can't do 1000+ dmg like all others chars, but he really don't need that with his def decrease ability and survivability !!

 

BTW2: SoFFacet - if you really want to leave Vampire as it is, additionally buff Sedna (+300 hp heal), i'm sure, you are playing Vampire or Sedna (at least have both in your premade team). I know how those teams works. Even when you fight against good players, you just tp all same time to tower (Vent), Vampire batswarm to some player, bite, stun, Sedna uses his speed (fastest Demi in game) and that's it. There's no possibility to do anything about this, because of Vampire ability to jump and slow down 30% (or stun). Buffing Sedna is just ridiculous idea... unless you are a Sedna player (or you have one in your premade team of course). Saying about mana is funny a bit for me. I played Sedna many times, and really if you don't use silence (1 vs 1 situation), 2 mana helmets + unbreakable boots are enought for this char to handle any team fight (and after battle just tp to base to regen mana). Still, you can use mana favor item or mana potions (if you just ask others from your team to carry flag locks for you) and then mana is not a problem for you at all. Well, I can agree Vampire is balanced ONLY if you buff ALL other chars (excluding Sedna of course !!).
Added: Oh what a surprise... I just checked your history, and you are a Sedna player ;) 1500 heal + 200 dmg is not enought for you then :)

 

 

EDIT (new thought): I just can't understand how people who plays just with 1 (ONE) char all the time, can say what is balanced and what isn't ? You play one char all over again, so you just know one char. So what your opinion about any other chars means ? Is that what you heard or observed with your premade team while killing noobs ?

Reply #73 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting Poul, reply 22
Another rant about Erebus

He's tough to kill but thats it. Besides that he doesn't do anything spectacular. He's a decent DG but honestly no better than 4th best in 2v2 scenerios (Sedna, Beast, Oak), and drops down even further in 3v3 (TB, Reg become viable). 

BTW2: SoFFacet - if you really want to leave Vampire as it is, additionally buff Sedna (+300 hp heal), i'm sure, you are playing Vampire or Sedna (at least have both in your premade team)

As you went to the trouble of finding out yourself, I play Sedna because shes strong. As I said just now, I don't find Erebus (minus Horn gayness) to be very good, and he is one of the DGs that my premade uses least often.  

Buffing Sedna is just ridiculous idea

See this is where your problem starts. For some reason you equate the power of the level 4 skill with the power of the skill in general, which is typical noob thinking. You don't just magically arrive at the late game. There is a lot of maneuvering that goes on before players start getting level 4 skills, and this maneuvering matters, which means the entire progression of a skill tree is important. This means that the heal change is not just some flat buff, its a calculated buff/nerf which hurts her early game (her current strength) and helps her late game (her weakness, if she has one). What you don't seem to realize is that Level 3 Heal giving 1350 Health is far more important/controversial than level 4 heal giving 1800.  

I know how those teams works. Even when you fight against good players, you just tp all same time to tower (Vent), Vampire batswarm to some player, bite, stun, Sedna uses his speed (fastest Demi in game) and that's it. There's no possibility to do anything about this, because of Vampire ability to jump and slow down 30% (or stun)..

Like I said, I would rather not use Erebus, hes not that good. But if I did have one on my team, I wouldn't rely on this too much. Good players don't fall for teleport ganks very often. 

Saying about mana is funny a bit for me. I played Sedna many times, and really if you don't use silence (1 vs 1 situation), 2 mana helmets + unbreakable boots are enought for this char to handle any team fight (and after battle just tp to base to regen mana). Still, you can use mana favor item or mana potions (if you just ask others from your team to carry flag locks for you) and then mana is not a problem for you at all.

Again, this is noob thinking. You're aiming to have 2 mana helmets and/or mana favor item, and earlier you said "Sedna is the fastest DG in the game," which means you're getting Boots and/or Anklet + multiple levels of Grace. This is a completely terrible way to play Sedna, if you try it versus good players you will get dominated because you're so squishy. Sedna, like all melee DGs, is supposed to stack health and armor. Also, if you're not using Silence by level 11-12 you're probably playing wrong. So yes, a properly built Sedna has mana issues, and she only has enough gold to easily solve them if you feed her. 

 

Edit: Maybe I should clarify, I personally do not have any problem with how Heal is right now, it seems fine to me. Changing it was Zech's idea, not mine. What I've been mainly objecting to is your original implication that Sedna's heal currently cools down too fast. 

Reply #74 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting Aroddo, reply 8
Anyway, these are not all my opinions. These are everyones.

No, they are not.  This is blatantly false.  You do not speak for the people.  It's obvious just from the replies in this thread that most people don't agree on what changes should be made.  You are deciding which ones you agree with and using those as your suggestions.

My suggestion is:  make one change at a time.  Even with that suggestion, I know that the forum-goers would not agree to what the first change should be.  There is no big "everyone agrees" suggestion.

Reply #75 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting SoFFacet, reply 23

(...) and earlier you said "Sedna is the fastest DG in the game," which means you're getting Boots and/or Anklet + multiple levels of Grace

Skills makes you fastest, I never said you need additional items. Sedna just IS the fastest Demigod in the game (+15% speed from skill). But i'm sure you know this already (and dunno why you are trying to hide this fact behind additional items). You don't need ANY additional item to be the fastest demigod.

 

Still talking with you is like talking to the wall. You are playing Sedna because it's strong, and same time you want to buff it, because i'm noob thinking guy. You don't know ANY other char, because you are play as a Sedna, but you talking how well all balanced is. You are playing mainly Beast/Vampire/Sedna (sometimes Oak) team, so you obviously don't see or just don't want to see the problems with game balance imo. Maybe you should play more, not me ? My suggestion is, play pantheon games, especially light side, and try to switch your Demigods (don't play Sedna all the time). Then just make conclusion before writing here again.