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Looking towards Epoch 3

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Looking towards Epoch 3

from JoeUser Forums

Real quick informal survey here.

When we get to Epoch 3 for Demigod, what do you think about changing it so that custom games no longer count wins and losses – only Pantheon/Skirmish games would.

The pre-requisites for Demigod: Epoch 3 are:

1. Satisfaction that the statistical tracking is very robust.

2. Better handling of Pantheon / Skirmish match making (something we would like your input to with regards to people quitting before the game starts and such).

3. Next Demigod update that addresses the LUA decompression issue that causes crashes for some people.

123,168 views 135 replies
Reply #52 from Demigod Forums Top

That's a bit far fetched don't you think? ;)

IMHO you are really dealing with the smaller issues here. Why am i saying that? You are still having problems with crashes and networking. Why should you fix something that doesn't affect the quality of the game more than it affects how players see each other? In my book that means a really bad priority system. Ok let's say you fix ranking system, automatch, etc, but your problems with the above mentioned remain. What have you accomplished then?

Did you not read what I quoted?  It was this:
match making (something we would like your input to with regards to people quitting before the game starts and such).
Why exactly do you think people are quitting before games start?  He didn't ask about crashing, bad connections, or any technical issues, he asked why people are quitting. 

So hazard a guess as to why someone would quit a game before it starts.  My guess, which I think is probably correct, is that they see the list of people they're going to play with and choose not to play with one of them.  The only time that's legit is when you see the AI on that list.  Seriously, why exactly do you think those people are quitting?

As for fixing issues like crashing and connectivity first, that only makes sense if the SD/GPG guys are all capable programmers in all aspects of the game, which I doubt.  I'm sure they have animators, model designers, network engineers, bug testers, etc. that just fill one or two roles, so when you have all your bug testing guys hard at work there's really no reason for the networking guys to just sit on their hands until the top priority problem they can't work on is fixed.

Siege of Centauri
Reply #53 from Demigod Forums Top

It should be the same as in Supreme Commander. Pantheon counts as ranked and gives you exp, achievements and everything official. And custom games don't count. This makes the most sense and is also the fairest because not every custom game uses the same settings, wich gives skewed results.

Reply #54 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting Polynomial, reply 7
There is no reason that custom games should be counted as NA. We are not provided with a ranked mechanism for people who want to play with other friends. You would be taking something away from us. That's the last thing we need.

We've been through this argument before. People who want to play PUG games play Pantheon/Skirmish. People who want to play against each other in groups play custom games. Rankings mean nothing in pantheon/skirmish games when your ranking is determined by other people being decent.

Just because you stomp pubs with a premade group all day does not mean that I only join custom games to play against your premade and other premades. Due to ranking differences in Pantheon (because I have been tkaking a break from demigod) I cannot play with my friend in pantheon at all, we will simply never get matched. There's also the matter of having to play fortress or dominate in pantheon, sometimes I just want a good ol conquest match.

New players should be able to practice in custom games without being rickrolled by premades before entering into pantheon as well.

And as you were nice enough to point out, rankings mean nothing so there is no reason to have them in custom games, it's only inviting abuse from premades.

Reply #55 from Demigod Forums Top

Ok hear me out of what i think is wrong with your deduction.

If the players see whom they are fancing after the begining of the game what prohibts them from quitting? It's really pointless to use cover names. Ppl have the right to choose whom they are facing. 

The GPG guys should test the core aspects, i know frog didnt ask for input on this, but it's my opinion that is useless to enhance ranks and stuff if you don't enhance the quality of the game.

Just my 2 cents.

Reply #56 from Demigod Forums Top

Yes, only Panth/Skirmish should be ranked, that would be a step in the right direction at least.

Its getting boring seeing average players rolling around with their friends team stomping randoms then epeening about it.

Reply #57 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting Xristina, reply 5
Ok hear me out of what i think is wrong with your deduction.

If the players see whom they are fancing after the begining of the game what prohibts them from quitting? It's really pointless to use cover names. Ppl have the right to choose whom they are facing. 

The GPG guys should test the core aspects, i know frog didnt ask for input on this, but it's my opinion that is useless to enhance ranks and stuff if you don't enhance the quality of the game.

Just my 2 cents.
People have the right to choose who they face in a RANDOM team matchmaking mode (didnt have a better word) yes that makes perfect sense...

Reply #58 from Demigod Forums Top

Ok hear me out of what i think is wrong with your deduction.

If the players see whom they are fancing after the begining of the game what prohibts them from quitting? It's really pointless to use cover names. Ppl have the right to choose whom they are facing.

No one has the right to pick their opponents in a competitive ladder, that's the whole point of it.

The GPG guys should test the core aspects, i know frog didnt ask for input on this, but it's my opinion that is useless to enhance ranks and stuff if you don't enhance the quality of the game.
The ranks are part of the game, for some people that's the preferred way to enhance the game's quality.  Others not so much, but it's a matter of preference.

Reply #59 from Demigod Forums Top

Id love a better ranking system.. be it by just excluding customs, or anything else. I`ll admit i didnt read ALL the posts in here... but couldnt you make a "solo" rank for just joining a skirmish/panth and a "premade" rank?

 

Because.. I dont have alot of people to play with. In al honesty i only have one friend that i can play with. Should my ranking mean less, and be viewed on as a lousy player just because im pretty much stuck with PUGS, somehow always ending up on the team with ALL newbies, and losing again...

 

I know this is a team game, and i like team play, but should that mean that only the guys who actually practice together get some glory, while the Pugs will bite the dust even when a guy ends the game with plenty kills, 0 deaths, and wouldnt be viewed as a lesser player had he just been in the other team. I think its just to hard to have a meaningfull ranking system based on random people trown together, but sadly without it, i couldnt even play ranked atall... Ok i have nothing to add :P Still, i hope for a way to reflect PERSONAL skill instead of reflecting the "skill" of suicider oaks on me in my win/loss ratio

Reply #60 from Demigod Forums Top

IF YOU REMOVE RANKINGS FROM CUSTOM GAMES, ALL THE PREMADES WILL MOVE TO PANTHEON/SKIRMISH AND COMPOUND THE "DROP UNTIL YOU GET PAIRED WITH TEAM-MATE" PROBLEM WE HAVE ALREADY.

(which to solve you just need to make player names invisible in the connection window e.g. player 1, player 2)

Reply #61 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting [ShakeNBake,
" reply="10" id="2307749"]IF YOU REMOVE RANKINGS FROM CUSTOM GAMES, ALL THE PREMADES WILL MOVE TO PANTHEON/SKIRMISH AND COMPOUND THE "DROP UNTIL YOU GET PAIRED WITH TEAM-MATE" PROBLEM WE HAVE ALREADY.

(which to solve you just need to make player names invisible in the connection window e.g. player 1, player 2)

 

Besides the all caps this is actually a pretty good point. However, it doesn't stop people from disconnecting right after the game starts.

 

edit: why is my quote borked?

Reply #63 from Demigod Forums Top


Real quick informal survey here.
When we get to Epoch 3 for Demigod, what do you think about changing it so that custom games no longer count wins and losses – only Pantheon/Skirmish games would.
The pre-requisites for Demigod: Epoch 3 are:
1. Satisfaction that the statistical tracking is very robust.
2. Better handling of Pantheon / Skirmish match making (something we would like your input to with regards to people quitting before the game starts and such).
3. Next Demigod update that addresses the LUA decompression issue that causes crashes for some people.

 

My suggestion

http://forums.demigodthegame.com/359572

looking forward to response

Reply #64 from Demigod Forums Top

It should only count for improving your rank, or as a "win" if you are against suitable opposition.

There should be no benefit for a premade team of good players continually stomping weak pug's.

I seriously doubt anyone would disagree with me on this.

Reply #65 from Demigod Forums Top

I still wait for 8 new damigods -.-

btw...try new dota game =) "Heroes of Newerth" (from devs Savage 2)

http://www.facebook.com/heroesofnewerth?v=wall&viewas=100000085972518

=P

PS i post it becouse we need more fans to get more keys to try it T_T

Reply #66 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting Polynomial, reply 7
People who want to play PUG games play Pantheon/Skirmish. People who want to play against each other in groups play custom games.

 

This is just plain wrong.

Many people outside the USA choose custom games because of ping issues. It has nothing to do with playing in PUG's or premade teams.

Reply #67 from Demigod Forums Top

Just to add my two cents... This is a subject my friends and I have talked about several times while patiently waiting for our premade (GASP) custom game to get off the ground.  What we've found is good players will rarely stick around after looking up our records.  Players that hate premades will flame us, then leave (at least this provides us a good laugh).  We're left with people that are so new to the game they don't know what a premade is, and players that just don't care.

Why does this happen?  Why don't we mix up teams?  Because stats do matter.  People look them up and judge you by them.  _I_ look them up and judge others by them.  This may be fair/unfair, but it's how things work.  My friends and I have no desire to screw up each other's stats.

Why don't we play other teams?  The system, as stands, discourages this.  Not only this, how often do you see 2 premade 5v5s at once?  Or even 4v4 ones.  We can't find each other, and even if we could, it's too much of a problem to try and join the other premade match with out being able to talk to each other.  By the time we co-ordinate who's game we're supposed to be joining, that game already has people in it.

Team auto-match in skirmish seems to be a good answer to this.  (There may be issues with say... a 4 or 5 man team finding another 4 or 5 man team to play against, but that's a seperate issue entirely.)  I also wouldn't mind an option (emphasis on the word option) to play custom matches as unranked.  Just an additional ranked/unranked button in the already existing lobby options menu would be sufficient.  I can't imagine that would be hard to code, but I'm not a coder so who knows.  Sometimes the simplest thing can be the worst.

-- Tukulis

Reply #68 from Demigod Forums Top

... Track Favour by the Tournament/Pantheon, not overall...

... play a new Pantheon, no matter what character you pick, you start with ZERO Favour points...

Reply #69 from Demigod Forums Top

First let me say that I don't care much about the stats. What I do care about are fair and good games without AIs. I want to be able to play with PuGs when my friends are offline and in team vs team matches.

Then another question I have: Why is Pantheon ranked at all? How can a game mode with AIs and premades/PuGs in the same match have any value for stats? Pantheon also forces you to play all light/dark in your team. This will actually make the outcome of the game more random. How are two Sednas supposed to stop two minion Erebus players. Ever seen the Rook AI in 'action'? It dies faster than I can say: Teleport!

I love Demigod and it's a great game but the stats will stay meaningless until we have a direct comparison between premade teams and a skirmishlike game mode which will put you in random teams with random demigods for every player - with no AIs at all.

I recommend to build a new game mode for ranked games from scratch:

- take the custom lobby (only to make sure everybody is connected)

- hide all user names

- randomize the teams

- randomize the demigods (optional), no doubles, no AIs ever

- if a player drops/quits sell all of his equipment and distribute it evenly among his teammates

Reply #70 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting Polynomial, reply 7
There is no reason that custom games should be counted as NA. We are not provided with a ranked mechanism for people who want to play with other friends. You would be taking something away from us. That's the last thing we need.

We've been through this argument before. People who want to play PUG games play Pantheon/Skirmish. People who want to play against each other in groups play custom games. Rankings mean nothing in pantheon/skirmish games when your ranking is determined by other people being decent.

agree 100%

Reply #71 from Demigod Forums Top

Demigod is a team game. Its meant to be played together as a team. I don't think removing custom rankings without giving us a ranked team automatch is a good idea. You would have to do it together, not one at a time. And by ranked I mean an automatch that just has us play conquest.

Reply #72 from Demigod Forums Top

as a player who plays exclusively pantheon (mainly because I don't like some of the game modes, like Fortress), I would not like it if stats and especially favor only count in Pantheon/Skirmish.

I don't premade (I've done maybe ~10 games with my lil brother in the couple months I've had this game).  I tend to look up stats before the game starts, but only quit the lobby if the other team has a premade (and I don't feel like fighting a premade at that time), if there is a significant imbalance in the average win/loss ratio of each team.

Reply #73 from Demigod Forums Top

anyone quitting should lose favor for their pantheon quitters never win and all that..

Reply #74 from Demigod Forums Top

anyone quitting should lose favor for their pantheon quitters never win and all that..

What about honest disconnects, or if someone simply has to go because something else came up?

Reply #75 from Demigod Forums Top

I think the rankings for each should just be separate.

That is,

Pantheon = http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/rankings/ladder/ (Currently this includes custom too, and maybe skirmish)

Custom = http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/rankings/customgame/

Skirmish = http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/rankings/skirmish/

People who want ranked premade team matches can still get it, just on a separate ladder from the Pantheon/Skirmish ones.  And that makes sense because they'll only be ranked against other custom games, so it'll be more meaningful.