Draginol Draginol

Various political observations recently

Various political observations recently

In no particular order…

Scientists are Democrats…right?

Pew Research says that 55% of scientists say they are Democrats, 6% Republicans. Gosh, must mean people who value the scientific method are Democrats while Republicans are just a bunch of religious nut jobs right?

Strangely, the left-wingers who have commented on it don’t seem to be that concerned as to how the survey identified who a “scientist” was.  Is a scientist someone who works at a university doing pure scientific research on the breeding patterns of fruit flies? Does it count someone who works at say a software company researching new ways to simulate different uses of carbon nanotubes?  Something tells me the survey identified the former as a scientist and the latter was not counted as one.  Icky capitalists aren’t scientists right?

Would people who want “affordable” health insurance be willing to go to your door with hat and hand?

I was reading Digg the other day and as some of you know, Digg is largely populated by far left-wing people who are largely unaware of how far left they are (they freak out about FOX News pretty much daily). 

Anyway, on the topic of health care, every time there is a discussion on it, it always boils down to the consensus (on Digg anyway) that single player health care is the way to go.  Single player meaning really tax payers which, as some know, is only around 60% of the US population, the other 40% paying zilch.

So let’s put this in perspective.  Presently, around 88% of the adult population of the United States has health insurance that they either pay for themselves or (mostly) is paid for by their employer. No matter how you slice it, they’re “paying into” the system.

But single payer advocates prefer a system in which only 60% of the population is paying into it.  This means either massively higher taxes just to get what we have today OR (more likely) a lot crappier quality health care than we have today and all so that the remaining 12% of the population can have health insurance.

Most people I’ve met who want a single payer system happen to be in that 40% of the population who pay no net federal income taxes.  I wonder if they’d be willing to come hat in hand and ask you to pay for their pills in person? Of course not, they’d rather act like they’re taking the moral high ground in demanding that you pay for their pills via taxes.

Tree huggers & agendas

I don’t expect a lot of out activist environmentalists.  Most activists seem more concerned with making themselves feel like they “care” than actually doing anything constructive to help the planet. It’s purely about emotional satisfaction for them.

In the mind of the modern American liberal, results are irrelevant, it’s about caring. Don’t you care about the environment? Don’t you care about the poor? Don’t you care about…?

I wish they’d do a little less “Caring” and a little more “DOing”.

Case in point, in an on-line debate on whether SUVs should be outlawed or not I pointed out that yes, I drive an SUV to work every day. It only gets 18 MPG. 

The lady debating me in the post took the high and mighty position that it’s people like me destroying the environment because I don’t “care” about the environment.

I pointed out “Well, I only drive 6 miles a day, that means I only burn 1 gallon of gas every 3 days, how far do you drive?”

Well, she has a 2007 Honda Civic Hybrid. She kept pointing this out throughout the discussion because it apparently gets 40MPG.

After a few times of me asking how much she drives, she admitted she works “about” 30 miles from work.  That means 60 miles a day or a gallon and a half of gas PER DAY.

So when I suggested that if she’s so worried about the environment and wants the government to start banning things, why not limit the # of gallons of gas someone can use per week instead of worrying about what kind of car they drive.

And so I got the usual “Not everyone has the luxury of living only a few miles from work, I can’t afford to live any closer.”

Awww. See, it doesn’t matter that she’s burning about 8 gallons a week of gas because she cares. It’s not really about saving the planet. It’s about feeling better about oneself.

I mean, if CO2 is going to cause “millions” of deaths and is the most important issue facing the world (as she repeatedly said) then how can she possibly justify burning 8 gallons of gas a week? Especially when she’s saying “deniers” like me need to give up our “toys” (said toy that burns a quarter as much gas a week as she does).

That’s always been the bottom line with the activist environmental movement. They’re not really serious. It’s just narcissism posing as political posturing.

61,005 views 92 replies
Reply #51 Top

You are as thick as brick on this issue.. equal treatment, human dignity and human rights can never be based on what YOU think of an individual.

For me different opinions and skills and ideals are fundamental to how I should treat people. For me people are equal as people, but not as people who did things. Once an individual says or does something, he loses his inherent equality and he becomes better or worse than others.
End of quote
Basically just after birth then? After that, what you do and what you think determines how you get treated? Are you listening to yourself?!?

respect for what people say and do is rooted in human dignity. And that means treating people better or wose depending on what they do and say.
End of quote

No and no. Otherwise it would be OK to torture suspects or terrorists or basically anybody you think deserves it. Human dignity is a value in itself, and the way you understand it opens the way to racism, bigotery and prejudicial behaviour because you base everything on YOUR evaluation of what people do and say. It does not work that way. What about disabled people, infants etc. who do all kind of strange things sometimes or who are just unable to live on their own? 

You got a really twisted idea about all of this, and its not a good one.

Reply #52 Top

You are as thick as brick on this issue.. equal treatment, human dignity and human rights can never be based on what YOU think of an individual.

End of quote

How do you do it?

And why do we put some people in prison? Why do we pay some people more money? Why do I pay more for a good book than I would do for a book made of empty pages?

Do we not all treat other people according to our opinions of what they did and said?

 

Basically just after birth then? After that, what you do and what you think determines how you get treated? Are you listening to yourself?!?

End of quote

I sure hope that's the case. I wouldn't want to be treated like a baby after I learned how to talk and use a toilet. I also wouldn't want a baby to be treated like an adult who can feed himself.

 

No and no. Otherwise it would be OK to torture suspects or terrorists or basically anybody you think deserves it.

End of quote

Where are you getting that? I didn't say anything about how we should treat other people, just that we should not treat them all the same.

Do we not treat terrorists differently from other people? Why the heck do we put them in prisons if it is wrong to treat them unequally?

 

Human dignity is a value in itself, and the way you understand it opens the way to racism, bigotery and prejudicial behaviour because you base everything on YOUR evaluation of what people do and say.

End of quote

There is this racism again. How the heck can treating people depending on what they say and do cause racism? It's impossible. Race doesn't come into it. Race doesn't change what an individual says or does.

Do you believe that one's race influences one's behaviour? I thought we, humanity, abandoned that "theory". It was very popular in the late 19th century. And it doesn't lead to good things.

 

It does not work that way. What about disabled people, infants etc. who do all kind of strange things sometimes or who are just unable to live on their own? 

End of quote

Good example.

Would you treat the disabled equally or differently?

If someone is born disabled, my philosophy says that we have to treat them the same as anybody else, since they haven't done or said anything different, and as I said, my idea is that we should treat people differently based on those things and nothing else.

If they are unable to live on their own, we could and should help them. But that has nothing to do with their value as people. I wish that we do not help them because they are worth more than others or because they are worth less than others, because being handicapped doesn't change a person's value (only what a person says or does changes his value).

Infants should obviously be treated differently, which is fine with my philosophy which dictates that we should treat people according to what they say and do. Infants are OK, aren't they? So what's the problem here?

 

You got a really twisted idea about all of this, and its not a good one.

End of quote

Careful now. You are treating me according to what I said.

According to my philosophy that is great, but according to yours it could be a problem.

You won't find me, I hope, treating people differently because of what they are. But, like you, I treat them differently because of what they do and say.

The difference between us is that I happily admit that I do it and believe that it is a good and moral basis for human interaction, while you do it and think that it is wrong and must be criticised if somebody else admits to doing it too.

 

 

Reply #53 Top

It's a philosphical and ethical ideal. People in prison are there because they commited crimes, but they are to be treated according to human dignity and human rights while in prison. The fact that they are criminals does not mean that they forfeited that right. I can find someone a total idiot, but that does not mean I get to treat him like one, i can't violate his human dignity just because he is one. So no, ideally we don't treat people according to our oppinion about them. That is what equality is all about - Die Würde des Menschen ist unantastbar.

Where are you getting that? I didn't say anything about how we should treat other people, just that we should not treat them all the same.
End of quote

You specifically said that you treat people according to your oppinion about them.

Why do we pay some people more money? Why do I pay more for a good book than I would do for a book made of empty pages?
End of quote
Demand and supply.

How the heck can treating people depending on what they say and do cause racism? It's impossible. Race doesn't come into it. Race doesn't change what an individual says or does.
End of quote
It's not according to what they say and do, it is according to your interpretation of the value of what they say and do, and you can expand  the category without a problem if it's all just hinging on your perception. You have the whole thing backwards, human dignity is not the reason why we respect someones oppinion, it's is why we respect other humans as persons no matter they think or do.
Do we not treat terrorists differently from other people? Why the heck do we put them in prisons if it is wrong to treat them unequally?
End of quote

You have not the right understanding of equality - it does not mean everybody gets treated the same way, it means everybody has the right to be treated with human dignity and to have his human rights respected. It does not mean that you can't send terrorists/criminals to prison, but it does mean you are not allowed to treat them inhumanely or torture them or execute them without a trial etc. because that violates their human rights. THAT is the equality, not your socialist communist interpretation where everybody is leveled onto some same form of existence and where human rights and human dignity are not respected in favour for this other form of equality.

Do you believe that one's race influences one's behaviour? I thought we, humanity, abandoned that "theory". It was very popular in the late 19th century. And it doesn't lead to good things.
End of quote
No, I don't believe that and I haven't said anything to that regard.

Careful now. You are treating me according to what I said.

According to my philosophy that is great, but according to yours it could be a problem.
End of quote
No it's not a problem, I respect your oppinion as a different oppinion, I just don't like what you say because I think you have the whole concept about equality backwards and your principle can be used for dangerous justifications of behaviour. Or maybe I just misunderstood you, could be.

The difference between us is that I happily admit that I do it and believe that it is a good and moral basis for human interaction, while you do it and think that it is wrong and must be criticised if somebody else admits to doing it too.

End of quote
or maybe I didn't, because behaviour is not the moral compass that allows you to treat people in condescending stereotypes that might violate their human dignity. Anyway I think we've been going in circles and bored the rest to death with this philosophical excursion, but I enjoyed it so far. I never really get to debate this and it's fun to have a different oppinion to go up against.

 

Reply #54 Top

You specifically said that you treat people according to your oppinion about them.

End of quote

Yes, but I didn't give specific instructions as to WHAT we should do to them.

That I would support torture is something you simply made up. It's not what I said. For all you know I could be in favour of giving free cake to terrorists. That would qualify as treating them differently according to my opinion about them.

 

Demand and supply.

End of quote

Demand and supply is based on personal opinions. There is no magic natural constant of books we have to pay regardless of what we think about them.

 

No, I don't believe that and I haven't said anything to that regard.

End of quote

In that case stop bringing up race and racism in a discussion about behaviour.

 

It's not according to what they say and do, it is according to your interpretation of the value of what they say and do, and you can expand  the category without a problem if it's all just hinging on your perception. You have the whole thing backwards, human dignity is not the reason why we respect someones oppinion, it's is why we respect other humans as persons no matter they think or do.

End of quote

Are you saying that other people somehow have the magic ability to be objective whereas I have this faulty mechanism which is based on my perception of the world?

That is extremely weird.

 

No it's not a problem, I respect your oppinion as a different oppinion, I just don't like what you say because I think you have the whole concept about equality backwards and your principle can be used for dangerous justifications of behaviour. Or maybe I just misunderstood you, could be.

End of quote

How could my principle possibly be used for dangerous justifications of behaviour???

And I am proud to have the concept of "equality" backwards. Most people see "equality" as evident in equal results. But people are different. Hence equality only exists if people turn out different.

 

or maybe I didn't, because behaviour is not the moral compass that allows you to treat people in condescending stereotypes that might violate their human dignity.

End of quote

Yes, it is.

 

Reply #55 Top

 

It's not according to what they say and do, it is according to your interpretation of the value of what they say and do, and you can expand the category without a problem if it's all just hinging on your perception. You have the whole thing backwards, human dignity is not the reason why we respect someones oppinion, it's is why we respect other humans as persons no matter they think or do.

Are you saying that other people somehow have the magic ability to be objective whereas I have this faulty mechanism which is based on my perception of the world?
End of quote
T

That is not what I said. If you interpret how you treat people just according to your moral compass (which could be flawed, how do you know it's not? Well Hitler used HIS, so that's allright then, right?) you would be able to justify just about anything. That's why I brought racism up as an example to discuss things on, not because you or me are racist. Nobody is able to be objective, that is why it's dangerous to use a highly subjective personal moral compass to decide who gets treated in which way.

 

Reply #56 Top

That is not what I said. If you interpret how you treat people just according to your moral compass (which could be flawed, how do you know it's not? Well Hitler used HIS, so that's allright then, right?) you would be able to justify just about anything. That's why I brought racism up as an example to discuss things on, not because you or me are racist. Nobody is able to be objective, that is why it's dangerous to use a highly subjective personal moral compass to decide who gets treated in which way.

End of quote

And what do you suggest as an alternative?

 

Well Hitler used HIS, so that's allright then, right?

End of quote

Hitler treated people differently depending on race, not their behaviour.

If Hitler had, say, invaded Poland because of something Poland did that justified an invasion, I I might not have a problem with Hitler's invasion of Poland; just like I don't have a problem with the Anglo-American invasion of France and Germany in World War 2.

A man who kills another man because that other man is a murderer is not morally the same as a man who kills another man because that other man is a homosexual.

 

 

Reply #57 Top

And what do you suggest as an alternative?
End of quote
That is what moralethics have as their subject - how should one act? I would say that this is an complex issue because there are different theories about it. The one most prevalent in the anglosaxon school is Utilitarianism. German speaking schools like contractualism and Kant. I am not a philosophic scholar so that I could outline each different approach in detail. If you want to know more, study Emanuel Kant.

Hitler treated people differently depending on race, not their behaviour.
End of quote
So how easy and logical would it be (and has been done) to argue that race determines behaviour? Because your approach is so subjective, it is farily easy to do just that, which in turn justifies prejudicial behaviour towards whomever you ostracized. All that is necessary is that certain behaviour doesn't fulfill your approved canon of what is good and right.

A man who kills another man because that other man is a murderer is not morally the same as a man who kills another man because that other man is a homosexual.
End of quote
Are you serious? A murderer still has the right to be treated with human dignity because he is a human being, no matter what. Otherwise you end up on a very slippery road to morally sanctioned lynching. A man who murderse is condemnable, not matter who he murders.

Reply #58 Top

So how easy and logical would it be (and has been done) to argue that race determines behaviour?

End of quote

It is easily possible to argue that race determines behaviour, but it has never been demonstrated that it does.

Maybe window colour determines behaviour? Who knows?

But until we have solid proof or at least some evidence that it does, there is no reason to worry about it. Race determines behaviour in the same way that window colour during the mother's pregnancy does: probably not at all.

 

Are you serious? A murderer still has the right to be treated with human dignity because he is a human being, no matter what. Otherwise you end up on a very slippery road to morally sanctioned lynching. A man who murderse is condemnable, not matter who he murders.

End of quote

You keep claiming that treating people differently based on what they did is an automatic violation of human dignity. But you fail to explain how that is the case.

You have also argued that treating terrorists differently from non-terrorists is tantamount to supporting torture of suspected terrorists. Yet I cannot find any explanation for why that would be the case.

Plus you should make up your mind whether a murderer is condemnable or not. The subject of whom he murdered didn't even come up in the example. (I automatically assumed that it didn't matter.)

Is it compatible with the concept of human dignity to put an innocent man in prison for 30 years?

If it isn't, we cannot do it to a murderer either. And if it is, human dignity is not worth much in your philosophy. Either way, human dignity would be the constant.

But if the two have different levels of human dignity which allow us to imprison one but not the other, we are certainly basing out attitude towards them on what they did.

So which is it?

 

Reply #59 Top

I don't know all the right words in english to explain how human dignity is derived by Kant, who is the most prominent example. It's philosophy and it has its own special vocabulary. People debate each and every issue we slunk through - its always a very current isue. I really wish I was more studied in philosophy to be able to answer your objections; it is very interesting  - what is human dignity, what are human rights and under which circumstances do they apply or don't apply.. What are we allowed to do or not to do, how can we justify moral behaviour and from what is morality derived.

Alas, as I can't answer your objections in a meaningful way and also make my argument in a better way, I just have to leave things openended here. This isn't the end, I just don't have the right answers right now; and me not being to answer accordingly does not mean you are right though lol

Gruesse aus Freiburg

Reply #60 Top

It's philosophy and it has its own special vocabulary.

End of quote

*shrug*

I read John Locke, Robert Nozick, Ayn Rand (for what it's worth), John Rawls and others.

John Locke was good. What came later appeared to have been authors trying to explain simple things with difficult words (or, in the case of Ayn Rand, make everything into a bad love story between uebermenschen). I don't think philosophy helps as much as it should.

There are no problems that can be solved by philosophers. That's why you never see job ads for them.

 

Reply #61 Top

Hmmm. I know what you mean, some writers are hardly very practical and often wander around in spheres that seem to be very very far out there. But there are notable exceptions, who write philosophy that is pragmatic and can actually be used in daily life.Try reading something from Hans Jonas.

Lrincipally, I would disagree with you though. There are problems of daily life and routine, and there are problems on a more systematic level. How do you legitimize human rights? That's philosophy, or theology - or both rolled into one. Without philosophy there would be no foundation on which to base our whole democratic system on (for example), or how society should be organized and function, what being human means, etc.

That is talk for a long night in a pub with a guiness or few though..

Reply #62 Top

Principally, I would disagree with you though. There are problems of daily life and routine, and there are problems on a more systematic level. How do you legitimize human rights? That's philosophy, or theology - or both rolled into one. Without philosophy there would be no foundation on which to base our whole democratic system on (for example), or how society should be organized and function, what being human means, etc.

End of quote

Religion does that just as well as philosophy and better.

 

Reply #63 Top

Most "classic" european philosophers didn't have an atheist or agnostic worldview but based their theory on christian values. It isn't totally seperated. I'm sceptical of religion as a legitimizing reason because the arguments rely solely on faith and dogma and don't need logic. Philosophy needs logic and reason and I appreciate that.

Organized religion is like opium for the masses - that thousand year old wisdom still holds true. There is no contemporary theocratic state I know of that I would not describe as a dictatorhip. Organized religion is too easy to abuse as a means for a political end  and it's too difficult to defy because you defy not only the political system and societial strucutre but more.

Pair religion with philosophy and a healthy dose of secularism and you get a good balance - my preference. I am not saying that religion is unimportant, but it needs something to counterbalance against - logic and reason. Iam really glad that we had the enlightenment movement.

 

Reply #64 Top

Most "classic" european philosophers didn't have an atheist or agnostic worldview but based their theory on christian values. It's isn't totally seperated. I'm sceptical of religion as a legitimizing reason because the arguments rely solely on faith and dogma and don't need logic. Philosophy needs logic and reason and I appreciate that.

End of quote

Religion also needs logic and reason. And just like philosophy the axioms are neither logical nor reasonable.

A belief in the existence of human rights requires belief in something, because human rights are not a provable fact of nature.

Try explaining to a lion (or a human enemy) that you have a "human right" not be eaten (or killed). Prove it to them. You can't. You can reason with them, but you need to find common ground, a common belief. The lion will disagree and eat you. But another human being might share your belief in "human rights".

Traditionally, individuals from other nations or tribes didn't have any rights. It was Jewish and and then Persian law that first assigned rights to individuals foreign to the tribe.

 

Organized religion is like opium for the masses - that thousand year old wisdom still holds true. There is no contemporary theocratic state I know of that I would not describe as a dictatorhip. Organized religion is too easy to abuse as a means for a political end  and it's too difficult to defy because you defy not only the political system and societial strucutre but more.

End of quote

Religion was never supposed to govern the state.

The Bible makes a distinction between the priestly caste and tribe (the Kohanim and Levites) and the kingly tribe (Yehuda). Back then the distinction was not between state and religion but between practice and belief. "Practice" is what we think of as secular law now.

 

Pair religion with philosophy and a healthy dose of secularism and you get a good balance - my preference. I am not saying that religion is unimportant, but it needs something to counterbalance against - logic and reason. I am really glad that we had the enlightenment movement.

End of quote

Yes.

It brought back some things we had forgotten.

 

Reply #65 Top

Try explaining to a lion (or a human enemy) that you have a "human right" not be eaten (or killed). Prove it to them. You can't. You can reason with them, but you need to find common ground, a common belief. The lion will disagree and eat you. But another human being might share your belief in "human rights".
End of quote

Duh.. Ok. Kant would say it only works with beings that have the ability to have dignity because they are both subject and object of morale. Humans make laws and then abide by them - which gives you obligations and also rights. If you have the right, you have the obligation, and if you have the obligation you have the right. Animals do not fit into that category because they have no obligations. But it is impossible to just have rights, that is why animals aren't assigned dignity.

You cannot reason with an animal - no communication. Human right doesn't mean that you have the right to be spared as prey, it means you have both obligations and rights. If the lion eats you, you still have them.

 

Reply #66 Top

But it is impossible to just have rights, that is why animals aren't assigned dignity.

End of quote

Hm. I don't see that.

Why wouldn't you assign dignity to animals?

 

Reply #67 Top

If you use Kant, then it doesn't work in that system.

Your question is very legitimate, and philosophers in environmental ethics have argued that there is no real reason why animals should be excluded. There are different ways to go about this.

Pathocentric ethics argue that any beings capable of emotions have a right to lead a good life - which is a painfree life. Thus it is immoral to afflict pain like in labrats or industrialized livestockfarming.

You haves Shopenhauers compassionethics - suffering should not be and if someone suffers you should have compassion and pity. That creates problems if you expand it away from bodily pain to abstract things like racism or other sociological problems. If someone suffers from a prejdice, it would be problematic to have pity.

Then there is Albert Schweitzers theological approach to revere gods creation.

Physiocentric arguments extend this also to everything alive, plants - or the whole organism. Steven Clarke's Gaia (mother Earth) is a organism that works together, the sum is greater than its parts, and if you mistreat parts of it, you hurt the whole organism. He extents it to organic and anorganic life, ecosystems.

There are many other theories, it is a controversially discussed current debate. Each argument has its opponents that try to find faults in it.


Reply #68 Top

It brought back some things we had forgotten.
End of quote
I overlooked that little statement. The enlightenment movement didn't bring things back that were lost, it thought them for the very first time. Things like viewing persons as individuals, who define themselves through merit, reason and respsonsibility instead of belonging to some duke, living in a feudal relationship, or having no choice in what you do in life because it is determined by religion or social status. It was revolutionary. It made the evolvement of our modern nation states possible, that philosophie is the foundation of our modern society. People like Jean Jaques Rousseau, Friedrich Schiller, Emanuel Kant, Johann Gottlieb Fichte, Goethe.. we owe them alot.

Reply #69 Top

I overlooked that little statement. The enlightenment movement didn't bring things back that were lost, it thought them for the very first time.

End of quote

No. It brought them BACK. You are too euro-centric.

Those things you list already existed but were forgotten after the rise of the Greek and Roman empires.

Feudalism was a relatively new European (and Japanese) concept. It was not the original way of human society.

 

People like Jean Jaques Rousseau, Friedrich Schiller, Emanuel Kant, Johann Gottlieb Fichte, Goethe.. we owe them alot.

End of quote

We owe them only that they brought back what Persian philosophers had already come up with thousands of years earlier.

I don't think there was anything new in the Enlightenment except the ideas of the constitutional republic and capitalism, which we somehow fail to practive any more.

The first declaration of the rights of men was written by Emperor Cyrus of Iran 2500 years earlier. We have not really advanced that much from then.

 

Reply #70 Top

Well Duh! I am eurocentric because modern western society developed in europe.The Idea of human dignity, human rights, the Individual, seperation from state and church - that is all european and has no precursor in forgotten times.

Whatever happened in Persia during antiquity 2500 years prior cannot be used as comparison . That's nonsensical - and you can hardly claim that humanity "lost" the idea of human dignity and rights that this legendary King Kyros thought of. Persian society didn't believe in equality the same way it was defined by the enlightenment- such an interpretation as yours is highly uncritical, unhistoric and unscientific. And you cannot back it up at all. His edict might have been a propaganda thing to make him look better - Rulers and emperors were prone to do such things anyway. They always painted themselves in positive lights, and because Kyrus was a good, smart and successful ruler it is no wonder that stories and myths were passed on in time that glorified everything he did. What is truth and what is myth has to seperated carefully though.

 

Reply #71 Top

Well Duh! I am eurocentric because modern western society developed in europe.The Idea of human dignity, human rights, the Individual, seperation from state and church - that is all european and has no precursor in forgotten times.

End of quote

Nope, all of that already existed in "ancient" Iran.

And those times are not "forgotten". It's not that long ago.

 

Whatever happened in Persia during antiquity 2500 years prior cannot be used as comparison.

End of quote

Well, in that case I cannot prove my allegation that the ideas of the enlightenment already existed.

 

That's nonsensical - and you can hardly claim that humanity "lost" the idea of human dignity and rights that this legendary King Kyros thought of.

End of quote

Well, I claim it, but I cannot back it up if you don't accept what happened in Persia 2500 years ago.

(However, using the same method I could invent the light bulb and patent it.)

 

Persian society didn't believe in equality the same way it was defined by the enlightenment- such an interpretation as yours is highly uncritical, unhistoric and unscientific. And you cannot back it up at all. His edict might have been a propaganda thing to make him look better - Rulers and emperors were prone to do such things anyway. They always painted themselves in positive lights, and because Kyrus was a good, smart and successful ruler it is no wonder that stories and myths were passed on in time that glorified everything he did. What is truth and what is myth has to seperated carefully though.

End of quote

Will you apply the same critical thinking to the enlightenment? I don't think so.

Anyway, here we go with ancient Persia:

http://www.kavehfarrokh.com/articles/nordicism/response-to-spiegel-magazine-2/

My friend Kaveh Farrokh wrote this response to an article in the Spiegel written by the same "Matthias Schulz" who wrote a famous article on ancient Israel that relied on the author's ignorance of Hebrew to work. (Schulz dismissed the idea that the Torah could be over 3000 years old based on the fact that coins didn't exist at the time even though Torah mentions someone "buying" something. But the word Torah uses literally means "to break" and obviously refers to break silver which people used before coins. He made other mistakes like that. It's common among euro-centric researchers.) The response addresses the euro-centrism of many and refers to some good articles about Cyrus' human rights and describes Cyrus' (and Iran's) attitude towards other religions.

I don't think we have yet reached the level of religious tolerance in Europe now that Cyrus and Iran have portrayed then.

 

 

Reply #72 Top

Leauki. I studied history. The way you go about compring things is unscientific and not comprehensible to me. You always use ridiculous examples that have nothing to do with what we were talking about  to back up claims that you cannot prove. You didn't cite your source, or even said that the King Kyrus wrote an edikt, what it was called, where it was found, what historians have said about it. All you said was King Cyrus said this 2500 years ago. This is normally not necessary, but because what you cite is so very old it is in this case (and all other ancient history). It is always problematic to verify the validity of ancient sources as being "truthful and objective", because that wasn't really the aim of chroniclers. edicts and kings. That is also why historians are careful with stating things like "that edikt was the first time the concept of human rights were written down".

In history that is not how we do things - you always cite your sources. And secondary litereature. In this case a critical translation would be useful as well. And the historical context of persian society in antiquity, other parallel historical developments etc. It is absolutely necessary. Otherwise its just hot air.

I never said i wasn't uncritical about the enlightenment movement. Philosophy wasn't either. Have you ever heard about Dialektik der Aufklärung? Adorno highly criticized the enlightenment movement and said that suppressing everything with rationale lead to the catastrophy of Ausschwitz because that which is suppressed will strike back and it controlls you then without you noticing. It goes back to Rousseau and his concept of the Barbarian vs. savage. Culture vs. Nature. You give too little credit to the enlightenment movement and its achievements. We were talking about philosophical concepts - and I already told you that I wan't a scholar in that and that is why I can't really do the same - cite my sources etc. But it's also necessary for me to do it, because otherwise we're just some hicks spouting off things that could be invented on the spot.

And Spiegel is not really trustworthy or scientific. To rely on some article written in there is like citing BILD to back up news.

Reply #73 Top

Your friend's style of writing isn't really any better than Spiege - but maybe he thought he'd level with them.  I found it a little bit demagogic as well. He did name books and sources, and oppinions - it would be a good starting point for me if I wanted to delve deeper into the whole issue, but I don't know ancient languages so id have to rely on secondary sources. Not all of them can be dismissed out of hand as biased against persia though.

 

 

Reply #74 Top

Leauki. I studied history. The way you go about compring things is unscientific and not comprehensible to me. You always use ridiculous examples that have nothing to do with what we were talking about  to back up claims that you cannot prove. You didn't cite your source, or even said that the King Kyrus wrote an edikt, what it was called, where it was found, what historians have said about it. All you said was King Cyrus said this 2500 years ago. This is normally not necessary, but because what you cite is so very old it is in this case (and all other ancient history). It is always problematic to verify the validity of ancient sources as being "truthful and objective", because that wasn't really the aim of chroniclers. edicts and kings. That is also why historians are careful with stating things like "that edikt was the first time the concept of human rights were written down".

In history that is not how we do things - you always cite your sources.

End of quote

Non sequitur.

I referred to an article written by a history professor which itself cites lots of sources.

That you "studied history" doesn't impress me. I know lots of people who have "studied" something and know little about it.

Don't lecture me on "citing sources". In contrast to you I have referred to sources. You just announced that the enlightenment did X and Y. I disagreed and referred you to a historian who backs me up. And you just lecture me about how things should be done while I was doing things that way and you did not; in fact you even announced that you simply don't accept historic evidence for comparisons.

 

 

Your friend isn't really any better than Spiegel in his style.  I found it a little bit demagogic as well. He did name books and sources, but didn't cite them, the only book he cited is the bible - which should be done carefully in itself if it were to be used as a source to back up claims about ancient history.

End of quote

I wasn't talking about style. I was talking about the historical truth that human rights were indeed an invention of the Iranians 2500 years ago.

Maybe you should read the article again (or even read it fully and not just skimp over it). He cites the Bible (which is a historic document as much as any other) and the primary source, the actual Cyrus Cylinder.

But if actual historic evidence and the actual text written 2500 years ago does not count as "evidence" for you, I think I will let you celebrate European achievement for as long as Europe can remain ignorant of the achievements of other peoples.

 

And Spiegel is not really trustworthy or scientific. To rely on some article written in there is like citing BILD to back up news.

End of quote

You clearly haven't read Professor Farrokh's article. At no point did he or I claim that the Spiegel was anything but completely wrong about history. The Spiegel article referred to was the reason Farrokh wrote the article I linked to. It was not the source of it. And if you had really read what I wrote or what Kaveh wrote, you would have realised that.

Anyway, let me return to you the lecture you gave me:

On the Internet that is not how we do things - you always cite your sources. Your credentials as a student of history are worth nothing. Only what you know or can refer to counts.

I am currently learning the Cuneifirm script and Akkadian grammar. Perhaps it will help me understand the text of the Cyris Cylinder some day (or at least help me understand known translations). The Cyrus Cylinder was written in Assyrian.

I wrote about this on my blog here:

http://web.mac.com/ajbrehm/Not_A_Linguist/Not_A_Linguist_Blog/Entries/2009/6/8_The_Assyrian_Language.html

I have not "studied history" and do not have any degrees or diplomas to make my assessment of history more valuable. I merely buy books and learn what I can.

I realise this means nothing to students of history who value the enlightenment, but it does help me understand that history is not just what happens in Europe.

 

Reply #75 Top

I reread that article 3 times. I realized that many things that I lectured you about were criticized by your friend in regard to the Spiegel article. I read that as well - Spiegel is pretty unscientific and mostly polemic. Citing sources etc - he said the same, also about being careful. Did I say anything that would differ? It is the normal and accepted scientific approach.

I didn't give my credentials to impress you - it was just to highlight the necessity for a historical scientific apporach -and your friend would agree with me because he used exactly that critiique in regard to that article he criticized - and justly so. It was pretty bad.