NY Democrats Refused to Stand for Pledge » Forum Post by Island Dog

licical correctness isn't a one way street Jade. We're being PC when we say people have to do XYZ to be patriotic, etc.

Um, no. I haven't said, or anyway implied that you have to do something to be patriotic. Just that the pledge can be very powerful when used correctly, and that it is an American tradition that shouldn't be laid by wayside just because it offends someone.

Also, didn't say only "so and so" was being PC, I said we have ALL become extremely PC.

No one can do anything because it might offend someone, and *who would ever be able to handle that...*.

As for the gay marriage, yes, they have the right to marry, just not the right to marry the same gender. That is an issue that is being worked and debated on. Just as women being able to vote, and slavery. It's a process that isn't just going to happen overnight.

Thus "pursuit."

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As for the gay marriage, yes, they have the right to marry, just not the right to marry the same gender. That is an issue that is being worked and debated on. Just as women being able to vote, and slavery. It's a process that isn't just going to happen overnight.

Jade, seriously..you're smart.

Heterosexuals = love the opposite sex. Guess what, they can marry who they want.

Homosexuals = love the same sex. Guess what, they cannot marry who they want.

So...given that when you marry, you marry the person you want...logically - then that means that gays cannot marry who they want. The whole deal about them "having the right to marry" (only if it is the opposites sex)...is a bullshit excuse and one that is completely foolish.

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Heterosexuals = love the opposite sex. Guess what, they can marry who they want. Homosexuals = love the same sex. Guess what, they cannot marry who they want.

Your analogy does not even pertain to the topic, but since your a gay supporter, here's one for you:

Homosexuals = beat up a straight person, it's assault.

Heterosexuals = beat up a gay person, it's assault and a hate crime.

The pledge of allegiance is a affirmation of principle, and a lofty one, but not any one particular political idea. The people that call themselves citizens and refuse to say it for whatever reason, are totally ignorant of what it means. Perhaps these folks would be happier somewhere else in the world were words like "liberty" and "justice" won't offend their sensitive ears.

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Your analogy does not even pertain to the topic, but since your a gay supporter, here's one for you:

Homosexuals = beat up a straight person, it's assault.

Heterosexuals = beat up a gay person, it's assault and a hate crime.

The pledge of allegiance is a affirmation of principle, and a lofty one, but not any one particular political idea. The people that call themselves citizens and refuse to say it for whatever reason, are totally ignorant of what it means. Perhaps these folks would be happier somewhere else in the world were words like "liberty" and "justice" won't offend their sensitive ears.

1. That's an unfortunate thing. If the evidence shows that the people beat the gay/lesbian people because of what they are - then yes that is a hate crime. However, if they just assaulted them, and didn't do it because they're gay - then that's assault. It goes either way.

2. I disaqree nitro; you are showing your ignorance and intolerance of those who do not wish to say it for moral/personal reasons. That doesn't mean they don't affirm the principle however.

I still stand by my point, if someone is going to force people to say it - then that is wrong. It's going against the very principles, in my opinion.

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Every generation needs a new revolution

~Thomas Jefferson

Ole TJ was a pretty bright guy. He saw right away that after all the tribulations they had gone to to make the country a reality, people become complacent and start to slip into the same holes as the leaders they revolted against. He saw that change would never stop and that resistance to change causes great friction.

I've been all over most of the western world/europe/africa, and I can say, I'm a pretty big fan of this country. I put my money where my mouth is and spent the last 18 years in the military. And I see nothing at all wrong with revising the pledge to more accurately represent the WHOLE of the people that live in the US. Right now, it does not do that.

In the Navy, valuing differences as strengths is something we get evaluated on. But people that resist change don't see differences as strengths - they see them as threats.

Now, on the other side of this...if you sign on to public office, not standing to say the pledge is a churlish childish way to make a point.

I do agree that children should not be made to say it in school. That's just brain washing. I was saying the damn thing in kindergarten and didn't have the first clue what any of it meant.

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I do agree that children should not be made to say it in school. That's just brain washing. I was saying the damn thing in kindergarten and didn't have the first clue what any of it meant.

Great idea, maybe new citizens can teach it to our children for whom many, their only aligners is to a new pair of Nike's or and Ipod. Ignorance breeds apathy. I see nothing objectionable in the pledge of allegiance, with the only possibilities of atheists not want to say "under God". For the rest is doesn't specify a Christian god, Hindu god, etc. If your god is your dog or global warming so be it. Very little is required from citizens in this country. It would be a damn shame if kids didn't know this phrase. Don't say "God" if it offends your sensibilities.

Brainwashing, what a joke that is. If you want to be technical that would cover everything except eating, sleeping, and taking a dump. Do you really believe saying something over and over makes you a true believer. Apparently you survived saying it in school as a kid.

Lets look at it line by line, because I believe some here might not know the words or what they imply:

I pledge allegiance to the flag, of the United States of America.

Pretty straight forward, it doesn't say don't change anything, or don't criticize the US. No single party or group has a monopoly on it, and that's is the way it should be. It says I am an American - if that offends anyone they really have no business here.

and to the Republic for which it stands.

Yes we are a Republic. I know some here voted for a Social Democracy and you may get your wish. Your little red book will contain the proper pledge when that occurs.

one nation,

Any disagreements yet? California believes in this concept... they want one nation to bailout their debt.

under God,

Athiests... leave this part out, just close your mouth for 2 seconds, it will pass quickly, the rest, this is what ever YOUR God is. I wish people were as offended here about cop killing, ho beating lyrics as they are these two words, might be some hope then.

indivisible,

This should only offend separatists, anarchists, and anyone else that would like to see the US broken up or dissolved. Here's a flash, most people don't, so don't go away mad, just go away.

with Liberty and Justice for all.

Anyone disagree with that? Maybe some think we are not at that point yet. For that group, is it wrong to set that as a goal and try to achieve it? Shouldn't we aspire to this? Without these ideals, minorities would be second class citizens or non-citizens now. Some will throw gay in here as an exception. Personally I don't, to me it's a life style and second they have the same rights as the majority does, they seek additional recognition IE special status.

I'll let the courts decide, since I don't have a horse in that race and even if I'm surrounded by gays, I won't be "brainwashed" into turning gay. Some of you that are easily "brainwashed" by repeation of things you hear every day might want to be careful.

Happy Independance Day BTW. I suppose a few of you will be lighting up your US flags tonight.

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The pledge of Alliegence is a sacred part of our culture

So you think it's a prayer?

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Jade, seriously..you're smart.

Heterosexuals = love the opposite sex. Guess what, they can marry who they want.

Homosexuals = love the same sex. Guess what, they cannot marry who they want.

I didn't say they could marry "who they wanted," I said they had the right to marry the other gender just as everyone else does. If you are going to debate me, argue what I actually said, not just what you think I said.

Using gay marriage as a basis to not believe/say/etc. the pledge is... a bit ridiculous. As I stated before, gay marriage is something that is being debated and worked on. We are reaching for "justice and liberty for all." Again, it is a work in progress.

If you don't want to say it, fine. But don't believe that just because you don't means that it should just be dumped. "It's fine as long as it doesn't extend beyond one's nose," as you always say.

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I didn't say they could marry "who they wanted," I said they had the right to marry the other gender just as everyone else does. If you are going to debate me, argue what I actually said, not just what you think I said.

Using gay marriage as a basis to not believe/say/etc. the pledge is... a bit ridiculous. As I stated before, gay marriage is something that is being debated and worked on. We are reaching for "justice and liberty for all." Again, it is a work in progress.

If you don't want to say it, fine. But don't believe that just because you don't means that it should just be dumped. "It's fine as long as it doesn't extend beyond one's nose," as you always say.

You started the exchange by taking my point, which we've debated frequently, and turning it into something else Jade. You know that when I talk about marriage I'm talking about the concept behind marriage, i.e. marrying who you want to. Logically, a straight person will marry the opposite sex, while a gay/lesbian person will not. That, is my point.

Which is my point. I believe that affirmation to be silly because we're not what we claim. You get my point? I think it boils down to the fact that I am a bit stricter in what our principles dictate. Call it a form of protedst if you will.

Exactly, to each their own opinion.

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which we've debated frequently

Actually, I don't believe we have ever debated it. You, against KFC, and Lula, oh yes. Me, no.

(Off-topic moment: If we had debated the issue, you would know that while I support gay marriage, it's a fallicious argument to say that they don't have the same rights as everyone else. Just like it's a fallicious argument to say that gay marriage will affect straight marriages. Everyone has the right to marry the opposite gender. No one has the right to marry the same gender. Some people don't care, some do. Should we all have the right to marry a consenting adult, no matter gender or race? Yes. However no one can say that gay people have less rights, just because they want to change a right. That is all it comes down to, is changing a right. Which I am fine with.)

Liberty and justice for all is something that we work TOWARD, not something we necessarily are at this moment. We are not claiming to be completely equal as we are right now. But it is an ideal to work for. As Lincoln put it:

Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

Thus, "liberty and justice for all."

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