NY Democrats Refused to Stand for Pledge » Forum Post by Island Dog

Honestly, and I realize I will likely get tons of flak about this, but I have alwayws found the pledge of allegiance to be assinine. It just assumes too much, like we're all "under god." To each their own, just don't force me to do it.

Be well, ~Alderic

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1- How is it "assinine?" It's a traditional part of our American culture. (Though only dating back just over 100 years.)

2- While the necessity of "under God" is debatable, that doesn't make the entire pledge to be "assinine."

3- Since 1943, no US citizen can be forced to say the pledge. (It might be required for those becoming US citizens though, not sure.) It's a sign of respect, however, and if you don't, you may be viewed in a negative light. (As proven by ID and his OP, because why would it matter otherwise?)

4- I find it interesting that the Pledge of Alliengce was written by a socialist... makes me wonder if it would have been so highly regarded and implemented if it were written today, instead of in 1892.

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1- How is it "assinine?" It's a traditional part of our American culture. (Though only dating back just over 100 years.)

1. I find the idea of having to pledge an allegience to be futile. Are we not a nation that claims that actions speak louder than words? Alright, so act - don't just recite some pledge.

2. We're a nation that, again, claims...diversity. We're a nation that claims, again, religious tolerance. So, how is requiring people (like someone's children) to receite the pledge, tolerant? And yes, in high schools it is a requirement. It definitely was in my high school. Teachers were ordered to send students to the principle if they didn't; I was a frequent visitor.

It just seems to be a waste of...paper, so to speak. I would rather honor my country, by fighting for it, writing for it, etc. i.e. Acting for it. That, and the "under God," part was put in place at a time of extreme paranoia. It is ridiculous.

It's also a bit of an irony.

3. Indeed, but if someone is going to judge - then why bother? Yes, first impression last forever and humans are in the habit of juding things left and right. Still, if you know who you are...does it matter?

4. It is interesting, and I do feel he has a valid point for why he wrote it. But i believe that actions speak louder.

It's become twisted in a sense, and convoluted.

Essentially: Talk is cheap

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Addendum:

Something else I think should be kept in mind because it might help you understand is that for as long as I can remember I have always, always considered myself a citizen of the world (i.e. Global citizen) first.

Be well, ~Alderic

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Talk may at times be cheap, but if followed by actions, it is extremely powerful.

1- The pledge can be the inspiration and backing to those actions. Is it always that? No. But does the fact that it isn't always that justify it's extinction? No.

2- It varies by state, but in many states, you cannot force children in school to state the pledge, though they have to stand. That has been ruled on, re-ruled on, over-ruled, and ruled again.

3- Someone is going to judge you no matter what you do... in any situation. So you are afraid of not saying the pledge because you are afraid of what people will think, so you would rather not have the pledge at all?

4- Valid point, to teach the state about obedience? Um... I choose whether or not to obey my government. Sure, I suffer the consequences, but I refuse to obey without regard as to what, or why. Teaching obedience is not a good reason to say the pledge in my opinion. As an inspiration for fighting for liberty, (which may mean fighting against the government,) absolutely, I think it can be used positively.

- I think it comes down to how we want to use the pledge. To create a sense of unity (something our country lacks more and more), an inspiration to fight for liberty, and remember the true sense of being an American (equality, liberty, etc)? I think it is good in that sense. To teach about obeying your government, or as propaganda in schools? Not so great.

Let's see, what HASN'T become twisted and convuluted?

Christmas. Oops, no.

Easter. Uuumm... nevermind.

Valentines Day. Yeah... not so good either.

Thanksgiving. Wait, can't use that either.

Labor Day or Memorial Day. Right, all for bbq right? Oh, nevermind.

So should we get rid of everything that has become "twisted and convuluted?" Or should we attempt to re-educate, and take it back to it's true form?

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Something else I think should be kept in mind because it might help you understand is that for as long as I can remember I have always, always considered myself a citizen of the world (i.e. Global citizen) first

You might like Michael Moore's updated version of the pledge then...

"I pledge allegiance to the flag, of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, part of one world, indivisable, for justice, and liberty for all."

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Or should we attempt to re-educate, and take it back to it's true form?

I should clarify. In regards to Christmas and Easter in true form, I am regarding the Christian aspects, not the "pagan." (Though, personally, I wouldn't mind taking it back that far. I dont' think American's would go for that, though.)

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Where's the action Jade? Who has stepped up and said enough is enough? Who has stood up to their government and truly held them accountable? I'm not saying whining, crying, or protests. I'm talking about walking to the voting booths and telling the politicans to take a swim in the atlantic. Or, by other means.

Honestly, bluntly....it comes across like certain times in some countries (like nazi germany) where citizens may not have been legally forced, but society forced them, to salute the great flag.

(Disclaimer for the dense, and not Jade - I am not implying that the US is nazi germany, dumbass)

1. Sure, but inspiratino should come to the person as necessary, not forced by the government.

Let me ask you this, what purpose does the pledge of allegience serve? We have monuments and days designed to celebrate our country, but make a pledge that is mandatory?

2. I'm not afraid of afraid of *not saying* I don't see the point in continuing it and making it mandatory; besides, I just don't say it. Also, there was a survey some time back, in the late ninties i beleive, that showed that most schools still make it mandatory. They just write it up as insubordination or such. I'm sorry..but to force children to stand for it is still bullshit. It's taking parental oversight/control, among other things.

3. Good point on obedience. As for inspiring liberty...now if you're not inspired to fight for your liberty to do what you wish - oops, my bad - whatever society and the government says you can do - then you're a dumbass.

I just don't plan on using it. Also, when it comes to liberty? Heh, liberty my arse. How about the liberty for homosexuals to marry? How about

I have nothing against people saying it if the choose to, just people being forced/made mandatory. For the most part, I love what our country was founded on, not necessarily what it's become. I honestly see this...social requirement (tell me, how many people are going to smile and you and say "go you" if you don't salute the flag, or what not?)...as contrary to what our country is supposed to be. It's just another form of political correctness.

Btw, if you couldn't tell...I'm not in a good mood. So I apologize if this comes off as...acidic.

Be well, ~Alderic

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You might like Michael Moore's updated version of the pledge then...

"I pledge allegiance to the flag, of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, part of one world, indivisable, for justice, and liberty for all."

It's interesting, but why do we need a pledge? Is our history, wars for independence, combat stories, national anthem, etc. not inspiring enough? Sorry, but it's a song that's rather archaic/outdated.

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Sorry Alderic but I'm gonna have to be insulted by your comments. The pledge of Alliegence is a sacred part of our culture, just because you don't like one part of it does not make the whole thing useless. If we gonna get picky about some parts of our history and hold it against this Nation for the next 1000 years then I say we should just surrender to the first country who wants to invade us right now and forget, dispose of and destroy everything this country is about and forget about those who died for this country.

But you know what, I decided instead to disregard your disregard for the pledge as simply a person who has the right to like or dislike what he wants. But bare in mind to me this makes you very unpatriotic if you are an American. If you or anyone else dislikes this country and its past then i say jump ship because there is nothing you can do to change what has passed.

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I should clarify. In regards to Christmas and Easter in true form, I am regarding the Christian aspects, not the "pagan." (Though, personally, I wouldn't mind taking it back that far. I dont' think American's would go for that, though.)

To each their own, to the extent of their nose; however, if someone is going to force me to celebrate Christmas or Easter (as a Christian holiday or not) . Then the extent of their nose might be shorter.

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It's interesting, but why do we need a pledge? Is our history, wars for independence, combat stories, national anthem, etc. not inspiring enough? Sorry, but it's a song that's rather archaic/outdated.

Song?

The pledge isn't a song.

And while our anthems and stories are good, and should be kept in mind, the pledge, is the culmination of what it is to be an American. "For liberty and justice for all."

Short and sweet, and powerful.

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Sorry Alderic but I'm gonna have to be insulted by your comments. The pledge of Alliegence is a sacred part of our culture, just because you don't like one part of it does not make the whole thing useless. If we gonna get picky about some parts of our history and hold it against this Nation for the next 1000 years then I say we should just surrender to the first country who wants to invade us right now and forget, dispose of and destroy everything this country is about and forget about those who died for this country.

Don't be sorry, like any country loving American, I believe in the freedom of speech - even if it isn't viewed as "American." Remember, dissent is patriotic as well.

That's fine and well, Charles, but I think you fail to see that by the social stigma attached to it, there is an implied requirement to say it. To be a "good" and patriotic american. Not wearing a flag lapel pin? Not putting your hand over your heart? Said something along the lines of, "This country has issues because...." Oh, well you must hate your country, right?

Bullshit.

I love America and am grateful that I was born in this country as opposed to the other possibilities, but you know what...sometimes i don't have to like my government, or my fellow citizens. In fact, the period of the American Revolution

Besides, this is my opinion, and I'm not necessarily saying we should go and burn all copies of it, just...take a step back and look at it through a different set of eyes. Not every person who defies certain cultural requirements is unpatriotic.

But you know what, I decided instead to disregard your disregard for the pledge as simply a person who has the right to like or dislike what he wants. But bare in mind to me this makes you very unpatriotic if you are an American. If you or anyone else dislikes this country and its past then i say jump ship because there is nothing you can do to change what has passed.

I will reply with these two quotes:

The peace and welfare of this and coming generations of Americans will be secure only as we cling to the watchword of true patriotism: "Our country -- when right to be kept right; when wrong to be put right." ~ Carl Schurtz

"A man's country is not a certain area of land, of mountains, rivers, and woods, but it is a principle and patriotism is loyalty to that principle."~ George Curtis

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Song?

The pledge isn't a song.

I couldn't think of the right term, so I winged it.

And while our anthems and stories are good, and should be kept in mind, the pledge, is the culmination of what it is to be an American. "For liberty and justice for all."

Short and sweet, and powerful.

Is it really?

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Sure, it is the culmination of what this country SHOULD be. Alright, yeah, great.

Is it a nation under God though? Nope.

Does it live up to those principles? Nope.

Is there liberty, and justice for everyone? Nope.

So lets break down the what America is supposed to be, by using a simple and powerful phrase:

'life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."

Does everyone have the right to life? No.

Does everyone have their liberties, or such? No.

Does everyone get to pursue happiness? No.

The idea of what our country is, what an american is, etc...has in my opinion, become twisted.

It's harsh I know, but you know what...I believe in our founding principles. Now we just need to sway those who seem to think it's patriotic to push their agendas (Some religions, anti-free speech, etc.).

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Thought I'd throw in a few more quotes;

"The notion that a radical is one who hates his country is naïve and usually idiotic. He is, more likely, one who likes his country more than the rest of us, and is thus more disturbed than the rest of us when he sees it debauched. He is not a bad citizen turning to crime; he is a good citizen driven to despair." ~ H.L. Mencken

"I love America more than any other country in this world, and, exactly for this reason, I insist on the right to criticize her perpetually." ~ James Baldwin

"Unless our conception of patriotism is progressive, it cannot hope to embody the real affection and the real interest of the nation." ~ Jane Addams

"Patriotism is proud of a country's virtues and eager to correct its deficiencies; it also acknowledges the legitimate patriotism of other countries, with their own specific virtues. The pride of nationalism, however, trumpets its country's virtues and denies its deficiencies, while it is contemptuous toward the virtues of other countries. It wants to be, and proclaims itself to be, "the greatest," but greatness is not required of a country; only goodness is." ~ Sydney Harris

"Patriotism does not oblige us to acquiesce in the destruction of liberty. Patriotism obliges us to question it, at least." ~Wendy Kameiner

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Frankly as a US citizen and a veteran I'm disgusted. It's amazing how some here freely express their claim to their rights as a citizen, yet shed the slightest feeling of obligation to any symbolisms of tradition of their national identity. If you want respect from your country, start by showing a little. What horse shit "patriotism" is on display here. The only "twisting" going on is the incorrect association of politics and patriotism. This is supposed to transcend politics. Maybe when some members grow the hell up, they'll have a better appreciation of its real meaning. Pity most immigrants are more patriotic than the snot nosed kids (and a growing number of adults) that never did a damn thing for their country except bitch and moan. Too many will gladly take their turn at the teat as long as they have to do nothing in return.

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Anthony R

Join Date 01/2003

+59

I'll bet they would've rose for the Soviet National Anthem or the Day O Banana song.

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Frankly as a US citizen and a veteran I'm disgusted. It's amazing how some here freely express their claim to their rights as a citizen, yet shed the slightest feeling of obligation to any symbolisms of tradition of their national identity.

So be it, that's your right and perogative. My obligation, however, is to the people that make the country. My friends, family, neigbors, etc.

If you want respect from your country, start by showing a little. What horse shit "patriotism" is on display here. The only "twisting" going on is the incorrect association of politics and patriotism.

What's funny is you fail to see that my esteem and respect for our country is why I have such an issue. Sorry, but you come across just as blind as many others.

This is supposed to transcend politics. Maybe when some members grow the hell up, they'll have a better appreciation of its real meaning. Pity most immigrants are more patriotic than the snot nosed kids (and a growing number of adults) that never did a damn thing for their country except bitch and moan. Too many will gladly take their turn at the teat as long as they have to do nothing in return.

The problem is it doesn't nitro. Tell me Nitro, are our principles...are what our nation was founded on truly being excersized and given? No. Our principles are violated and usurped constantly, by the very people that enjoy it.

You know...the funny thing is I do something for my country. Yeah, I can't join the military, but I still volunteer, etc.

But sure, lets all ad hominim. But you know,whatever. If you want to claim that I'm being unpatriotic, or seditious...then fine. To each their own and our principles included.

I'll bet they would've rose for the Soviet National Anthem or the Day O Banana song.

Oh sure, yeah...All hail the soviet union! (Fyi --> \sarcasm)

Be well, ~Alderic

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I served with people of many different political ideologies (and other significant differences), a national respect is one thing we all shared. A person doesn't have to serve to be respectful or patriotic. It's as basic as calling someone ma'am, sir, mr. or mrs. Personally, it's an acknowledgment that everyone has a right to believe what they want, because its for us all.Saying the pledge doesn't make a person patriotic, nor does not saying it, you have to believe it;s what we should strive to be,

My obligation, however, is to the people that make the country. My friends, family, neigbors, etc.

Obligation or agenda? You don't believe in "liberty and justice for all"? It doesn't say Republican or Democrat, black or white, queer or straight. Make your political statements, but don't expect to be taken seriously by me. Now I know you won't lose sleep over that. As long as your taking care of your little group. Here's a flash for you this is a nation. Next time you wonder why things aren't just the way you'd like them to be, take a hard long look in the mirror.

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Does everyone have the right to life? No.

Does everyone have their liberties, or such? No.

Does everyone get to pursue happiness? No.

Pray tell, who (in America) doesn't, or can't?

It's amazing how some here freely express their claim to their rights as a citizen, yet shed the slightest feeling of obligation to any symbolisms of tradition of their national identity.

This is what I don't understand. We're forced to be so PC that we can't even have national traditions because it might offend someone. I'm sorry, but I respect what our forefathers gave us the basic rights to do, and I would die to fight for liberty. It's just sad that we are starting to have to fight our own government for those liberties.

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Ha, finally got home, and could see the video.

"When one tried to participate, he was pulled down."

See, that is bullshit, in my opinion. That man wanted to respect his country, (his choice and right,) but his fellow... moronic... party members prohibited him from doing such.

What the hell has our country come to?

That makes my blood boil.

So pc and polarized we can't even respect our own country.

When will people wake up and realize that our entire government needs an overhaul? No more politicians.

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Pray tell, who (in America) doesn't, or can't?

Marriage is borh an implied and legal liberty. Heterosexuals can marry who they want. Guess who doesn't have the right to marry.

Obligation or agenda? You don't believe in "liberty and justice for all"? It doesn't say Republican or Democrat, black or white, queer or straight. Make your political statements, but don't expect to be taken seriously by me. Now I know you won't lose sleep over that. As long as your taking care of your little group. Here's a flash for you this is a nation. Next time you wonder why things aren't just the way you'd like them to be, take a hard long look in the mirror.

Dude, you're not listening.

1. My obligation Nitro.

2. Who the hell do you think I'm representing? Are you seriously that thick that you thinking I'm trying to take care of my little group? For the love of God man, get a grip. I don't give a flying fuck what the Dems or Reps say; they can all jump of a bridge. For the record, I'm not affiliated with either. In fact, I'm a friggin' libertarian. You know what is funny, is that you say it isn't about the politics, but YOU are the one that is inserting the politics.

My obligation is to our principles, which include: Freedom, libterty, the pursuit of happiness, etc.

Fyi, the next time you need someone to fight for your rights...no matter if they're *assumes deep booming voice* "patriotic" or not...guess what, I'll probably take up the charge boy-o.

I served with people of many different political ideologies (and other significant differences), a national respect is one thing we all shared. A person doesn't have to serve to be respectful or patriotic. It's as basic as calling someone ma'am, sir, mr. or mrs. Personally, it's an acknowledgment that everyone has a right to believe what they want, because its for us all.Saying the pledge doesn't make a person patriotic, nor does not saying it, you have to believe it;s what we should strive to be,

That is the basis of my point. For me, I BELIEVE in our principles, and that extends to when someone is claimed as being unpatriotic.

and I would die to fight for liberty.

Dying to fight for living might be counter productive. I've never seen any zombies fighting for liberty. I also agree, it is sad that we have to. (Huh, I must be unpatriotic)

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Ha, finally got home, and could see the video.

"When one tried to participate, he was pulled down."

See, that is bullshit, in my opinion. That man wanted to respect his country, (his choice and right,) but his fellow... moronic... party members prohibited him from doing such.

What the hell has our country come to?

That makes my blood boil.

So pc and polarized we can't even respect our own country.

When will people wake up and realize that our entire government needs an overhaul? No more politicians.

You know what's funny...policical correctness isn't a one way street Jade. We're being PC when we say people have to do XYZ to be patriotic, etc. I'm curious though if they were doing a protest. I've heard of "sit downs" being staged. (I guess protests/boycotts and tea parties are all unpatriotic too though...\sarcasm) I am disappointed the guy wasn't allowed to do that, but...such is politics - geesh.

Be well, ~Alderic

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I'll bet they would've rose for the Soviet National Anthem or the Day O Banana song.

You're an asshole.

Freedom should include the freedom to not pledge allegiance if you don't feel like it.

never did a damn thing for their country except bitch and moan.

It's a start.

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It looks to me like the Democrats refused only because the Republicans initiated it. I think it was a protest against the Republicans, not against the pledge.

Jeez. Thick people.

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