Iconus Guardian Repulse and Capital Ships

Well, the problem here is the physics engine.  Technically, if going in line with repulse, you should be accelerated.  If against it, you should lose all your momentum, and if you were perpendicular to it, you would gain both velocities, thus making you go diagonally...

i have to agree, i had it happen to me as well. my cap was right at the edge of the grav well had over 70% hp left but it kept getting repulsed so it couldnt move to the edge to jump out. i lost my cap.

Repulse should not affect capital ships in the way it currently does.

Cykur gg Game earlier today.

Let me get you to vote here:

https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/356646

 

it should affect them... the problem is their lack of acceleration combined with coming to a complete stop.  As I said earlier, this should be addressed in the physics engine...  (then again though, you could pretty much just stick a guardian by the phase lane and you just made an inhibitor...)

oh absoluetely love it. advent can kill vasari= NERF THEM!!!!111oneoneone

I was playing TEC at the time, actually.  Everyone has times when they have to pull back and regroup.  The Guardian is the only support cruiser in the game that can interfere with a cap ships ability to move.  If it was purely a defensive ability, I wouldn't even care, but it isn't right to just push someone's high level cap ship around rendering it almost helpless until you manage to kill it.

And yes, of course anyone who abuses the ability would love it.  Vasari already took serious hits to Returning Armada (completely justified), and Subverters (justified, but overnerfed).  Back in the day the Guardian could throw a capital halfway across the gravwell.  At least I could fight Guardians with Subverters back then, so it didn't bother me as much.  If we are going to identify unfair powers and abilities of one race, such as Vasari, we can do the same with Advent, I think.

I agree that the cap ship momentum/turning problem is something that needs to be addressed.  Having a cap killed just because it cant move or even turn away from repulse just plain sucks.  Making them immune to repulse may be a problem because they can easily be singled out easily but there may not be a better solution to that aspect of repulse. 

 

[_]-Greyfox

I recently had an unpleasant experiance involving my lvl 7 marza and a couple of gaurdians.

My fleet and my opponents fleet were battling it out...my lvl 7 marza had just gotten enough anti-matter to use missle barrage. I was keeping it at the other side of the grav well just farming xp and keeping it healthy. When it got enough am to use mb i moved it towards the battle to get mb into range. Once i got it into range i used mb then ordered it to retreat away from the battle. At this point its sheilds were down but its health was about at 100%.

What happened was my marza was facing directly torward the enemys fleet which of course contained a number of gaurdians. When the gaurdians used repulse it completely prevented my marza from turning. and since it couldnt move forward either it was effectivly trapped and of course it died.

I think this problem could be part broken path finding also becuase when ships turn they have to move forward and turn instead of just turn then go.

Repulse is so broken and overpered. It is really frustrating that it has yet to be fixed

Greyfox, derek, Cykur

Vote for a fix here

Patch Stat Changes Forum

Devs are watching

More votes = more likely theres a fix in the next patch. and now voting is easier, so you have no excuse. Do it.

See Derek. I wouldn't have a problem with repulse if the guy uses it tactically. If a person knows he has 7-8 guardians, and can fire repulse say once every 30 sec, then I don't have a prob if micros the cap away, as long as that's the only thing repulse is used for. As is, repulse costs so little antimatter that I'm sure he had an easy time with the Marza.

True, and Marza's in particular would be especially vulnerable to this tactic as all their weapons face forward, and thus they would be unable to fight back.

Perhaps something that could be done is that while it slows down linear movement, rotational is unafected...  That might help a bit...  Then again, just parking a couple guardians by the phase lane, and its impossible to leave...

i think if a guardian has a significant effect on a ship that size and of that power. it should be penalized with high anti matter cost. if a cap ship has to pay the price to be so big and powerful. so should a cap killer like the guardian which has the ability to hold a caps life in its own hands.

i feel if the ability was restricted it be used more fairly. also the longevity of the repulse's effects should be taken down as well. i could see if there were a large enough number of guardians together. then it makes sense they can stand up to a cap more equally. but as it stands, the repulse ability is overpowered.

Well it's not like you can repulse from all the way across the map.  You have to be in range of a ship to repulse it.

Now here's the thing: If you're moving closer to a Guardian by choice then you need to make a decision on whether you want to get bounced around or if you want to keep your capitals safe by keeping them at a distance.

The moment a Guardian starts repulsing is the moment the Advent player controls the field. As an Advent player, I need to keep close tabs on my Guardians so they don't start getting smacked by LRMs or phase missiles or the like.  They have paper armor and massive shields.  If they lose their shields because I am being careless by just bouncing a player around then I am going to lose my Guardians.

The benefit of the repulse can be counteractive as well... if you aren't doing it right.  But players who have mastered the repulse technique have well deserved it as it is not easy to master, as it takes the entire gravwell into consideration.  It is really fun to do though

Yeeeeah, and the fact that Advent is the only race that can play god with the map doesn't come off to you as OP how?

Repulse is OP, but it is a neccesary ability for the advent. Their carriers are the heart of an advent fleet, without repulse you could just rush some frigs or hcs to the rear of an advent fleet and destroy the carriers, bye bye advent.

Repulse puts the affected enemy ships out of the range of the advent damage dealers (crusaders, the trinity, illums) If they are going to push you around, then make them come to you. Have you fleet sit out of range and the advent loses its aura of late game invincibility.

Guardians against assailants: Phase missles obliterate guardians with negligible armor and very low health.

Guardians against Javelis: Take longer, but TEC lrms do more damage so just focus fire and the guardians die.

 

The point of fighting the advent is to distract them. Everybody knows that repulse is OP, so anyone playing advent will use it and abuse it. Attack the guardians and the player's dominas will have to heal them or the fleet's shields go down. With the dominas healing the guardians, they cannot suppress your frigates. AS Vasari, jam the fighters weapons. As TEC Flak burst, boom. Battle won.

At least in my experience.

In theory, yes. In practice, no. Illums crush assailants and javelins. Illums stop anything from getting anywhere near the guardians or take out a HUGE chunk of the enemy fleet trying to do so. Illums themselves aren't so bad. Neither is repulse. Combined it's uncounterable. Illums beat everything, including HC's. No one's stupid enough to try using SC on Guardians. 50% multipliers and Halcyon bitch slap of doom make SC ineffective.

Amish, you are right. But thats more of a by product of the illum invincibility. When and if illums are balanced, then repulse will be a nuisance, but not a game ender.

The advent rely (almost exclusively) on abilities and how they stack to win fleet to fleet battles. Repulse is designed to separate large fleets from the groups of support, very useful since the advent are almost always outnumbered by the vasari and TEC.

The problem arises when a single cap is targeted and cannot move at all. A level 10 cap can be brought down by 5 guardians and 10 disciples (a little bit of an exaggeration). Repulse is a double-edged sword though, enemy ships are no longer it the range of ruthlessness, and the synergies are innefective. It also spread out the enemy ships, meaning that the whole advent fleet has to turn to focus fire.

The entire advent fleet is a tad overpowered by the late game, and the entire vasari fleet is a little lackluster.

The vasari subverter used to be able to alleviate some of this, but well...

TEC to advent is balanced.

TEC to vasari is balanced.

Advent to vasari, work needed

Actually, Keep an eye out. I'm going to put out a mod with a lot of the fixes I feel this game needs. I'll explain them all in the post. Mainly, I'll be bringing LRFS into line, and giving lf's a role in the game without making them overpowered. I'll also take a stab at balancing just about everything, including flak vs. fighters.

I'll also be fixing repulse! It'll be called RAKK Balance Mod. Keep urs eyes peeled. I'm shooting to have it out within the next couple of days.

No, carriers really aren't the heart of the Advent fleet. They were in patch 1.10 / 1.01 Entr. Illuminators are the main ship of most elite players since strikecraft can effectively be countered now, though it is smart to have some carriers to force the other guy to build counters. This is theory-craft on your part. Guardians do not go down that fast in general. Assailants can kill them, but trying to keep Assailants alive in the face of an Advent fleet is challenging.....you lose your Assailant fleet. Advent fleets are not "brittle" and utterly reliant on the Guardians. Advent are already very tough without Guardians. You should play more games online against the strong clan players.

This post was just to address the way that Repulse can paralyze a capital ship until it can be destroyed by constantly nudging it, not to discuss the general nature of Repulse. Re-read my post.

I have been defeating opponents abusing Repulse for over a year, back when the tactic became popular. Old Repulse used to throw a capital ship clear of the field....the current implementation of Repulse nudges ships and they lose their momentum. Capitals accelerate slowly, so they are effectively paralyzed by all the "nudges". Support ships are not supposed to be able to paralyze Capitals in this way -- only other Capitals should be able to do this.

Oddly, I don't find Advent to be that outnumbered in multiplayer games. The only time I see this happen is when someone gets cap happy. When I play Advent I tend to make a lot of ships. Just a couple guardians messing with a caps ability to turn and move in the face of a fleet is the problem. Repulse is most valuable against HC...you wouldn't necessarily use it against long range frigs, you just roll over them instead. People do use it to try and split up caps from their support. Yeah, Vasari are a little lackluster now that they lost the Subverter edge....if it wasn't for phase missiles, they couldn't stand against Advent at all. But TEC are really dependent on their HC's late game to stay competitive, and these are totally countered by skillful use of Repulse. The longer a game goes, the more able Advent is at countering just about anything it faces. This is why so many Vasari players now just build an Orkulus everywhere -- a strategy I hate btw.

Look at the bright side cykur. We get enough people to join around 1 mod and the current balance issues will go away.....of course....until we find new ones. C'mon man. You'd better be the next Brett Favre. I don't think you can stay retired.

To bad we cant get the online community to play a mod that balances this game out.I would be all for playin it.It would be hard to make everyone happy tho.

I have just been adding my opinions while I'm still qualified to have em. I have been scaling down my possessions so I can live inexpensively, and my super heavy desktop workstation is the next on the chopping block...will probably get a MacBook Pro. When I have some stability again, I'll think about gaming.

You figure out the new balance. Just rein in LRM and flak a little. If you ALSO buff LF too much, support ships will be worthless. The only thing allowing TEC to be competitive is the damn hoho. The idea of trying to get the community behind 1 competitive online mod is a good one. And the Raging Amish marketing machine is a good way to get the word out there.

Dude, send me a message on the forums or something when you get that working I wanna take a look at it, maybe play it with ya. And you should use the Patch Stat Changes Forum for some of the fixes, but I'm sure you already will.

 

I know I won't make everyone happy. And I'm not going to do anything radical with the game. I want to implement the overwhelming balances that we're calling for. I'll list them. I think I may end up making two mods. One will be conservative. I'll make small tweaks that just about eveyrone can agree on. I'm also working on a mod with Eadtaes. Two minds are better than one. And I think  I may make a third. One where I do just what I want. Hell, even I play single player every once in a while.

[edit] Almost forgot. Cykur. Best of luck to ya man. Always been a cool dude and I only wish the best for you. I'll be like the New York Jets and rejoice when you decide to come out of retirement.

[2nd Edit] Also, Ead has some ideas that I really want to see in action. They're not exactly the first things I would have thought of, but I like his ideas.