You Can "Know"

so are you saying all I need to do is belive?  It doens't matter what my actions are?

For salvation.  Yes.  It's all about belief in God.  Not working for God. 

not for salvation.  Christ accepts us just the way we come to him.   Our actions are important but not for the reasons many think. 

If we know and understand what God saved us from, our actions are going to fall in line with our thinking.  Our actions stem from our hearts.  Because we know God saved us from a terrible fate, we are going to want to show our appreciation by our works.  In other words while we are not saved by our works, we are saved to do good works for an example to others and to give God the glory.  Jesus said people will know us by the love we show for one another.  To show love is to do good things for others.  Our good works are evidence only of who we belong to.....not our ticket to heaven. 

Some tho, will not have any good works to speak of, but they still will enter heaven.  Remember the thief on the cross?  He was saved but didn't have a work to offer for it.  I'm sure, if he could, his life would have been much diff if he could have stepped down from that cross.  That's the evidence of a changed life. 

Darnit.  Saw this article and was SURE you had produced that photo.

Ah well, maybe next time.  Get it for us soon, though, would you?  We're all dying to know how big God's nose really is.

KFC, you truly believe that belief is all that is required for salvation?

How do you explain Acts 2:38?

According to that verse, (even taken in context) belief is only the first step, followed by repentance, babtism in Jesus' name, and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost. 

I assume you believe in repentance, but what about babtism?

Just curious.

Baptism

yes, and to be as simple as I can....read John 3 and notice how many times "belief" is invoked.  I'm sure you know John 3:16 pretty well? 

Baptism is the first act of obedience.   First comes salvation then comes obedience. 

To be clear, there's two kinds of baptism.  The first is spiritual (when you've been saved) and it happens when you repent..... "repent and be baptized."  At that time you are "sealed with the Holy Spirit" (eph 1:13).   So you can't lose it.  God seals you.  You don't seal yourself.  Then there's the physical baptism when you go to the river and get dunked!  This represents the inward change of dying to self and raising in newness of life to follow Christ. 

If you notice they were convicted in the verse before.  Repentence means to change one's mind specifically here about Jesus and to acknowledge Him as God. 

Water baptism is the outward sign of repentance and remission of sins.  The bible is clear we do nothing to earn salvation (Eph 2:8-9). Water Baptism is a work and doesn't earn us salvation.  It only shows the world as a witness that we have made a decision to follow Christ.  It's like the beginning of our ministry for God similar to Christ being baptized in the Jordan at the start of his ministry. 

For Christians like me this is the reason we don't believe in infant baptism.  It's a choice we must all make sometime during our lives.  It can't be made by another. 

All you have to do is imagine what Jesus looked like and you've got your answer. 

Jesus was God in the flesh. 

Then you have deluded yourself.

You my friend are not yet saved, though I hope you will be. Saint Paul warned the Phillipians who to continue to be obedient and to work out their salvation with fear and trembling.

If St.Paul had believed as you apparently do--that we can know with full assurance,---then he would not have said this.

And Jesus Himself tells us "He who endures to the end will be saved." St.Matt. 24:13; 25:31-46.

So here alone, Scripture tells us salvation depends upon being "obedient" and enduring (in faith and charity) to the end.

Scripture also teaches that one's final salvation depends on the state of the soul at death as "there shall not enter into it (heaven) anything defiled." Apoc. 21:25. So, one who dies in the state of grace will go to heaven, but one who dies in the state of enmity and rebellion against God (that is in the state of grevious sin) will go to Hell.

Lula, are you telling KFC she is going to hell?

I thought it wasn't polite to say that to friends.

Not all churches that practice babtism partake in infant babtism. 

Thank you for the statement, was just curious.

(Ironically, in terms of scripture, I tend to agree with Lula here on why babtism is necessary, though not in regards to infants.)

Here we go again.  I told you....I promised you I would call you on this.  Do you know what you're doing? (I've asked this before)  You're running to another scripture instead of answering what I wrote in the main blog.  You keep doing this.  This is a sure indication that you are purposely not wanting to believe Lula.  You're not only refusing to listen you really don't care what I'm writing.  You won't have it...and you don't want anyone else to hear this either do you? 

*sigh*

Matt 24 is not a chapter about salvation.  The whole chapter is about end times.  Jesus is answering the question posed to him...."what will be the sign for the end of the age?  He answers with the terrible things that are going to happen and mentions that "he who endures to the end will be saved."   If you want to read about eternal salvation the book of Romans is chalk full of scripture regarding just this topic.  It's the heart of the NT. 

In context he's saying in Matt 24 those who persevere will be the saved ones, not the ones whose love grows cold (v12).  He's not suggesting that perseverance secures salvation.  Scripture everywhere teaches the exact opposite.  The Christian's perseverance is evidence that he is saved.  True believers ae kept by the power of God thru faith.    

and this statement just proves that you're not listening.  I've said many many many times when you keep bringing this up...so for the nth time......

Working Out is not working for.  Big diff.  You can't work out what you don't have.  God gives us the salvation and we work it out...not work for it.  Big diff.    This is your RCC putting you under the yoke of fear.  

I do find it ironic that you are telling me I'm not saved.  Based on what?  RCC teachings?  Well I'd have to agree with you there.  Thank God the RCC isn't God....or we'd all be doomed! 

Did you know that you have to buy tickets when you go to the Vatican to see the Pope?  My husband's boss's wife just got back from Rome.  She had to buy a ticket to see the Pope.  He comes out and waves just to the ones who buy tickets.  No paid ticket....no pope.  And you don't think there's something wrong with this?  How close to you think this is to Jesus? 

Martin Luther nailed this one.  It's just like the indulgences of the old days. 

Now that I've discussed WHAT YOU WROTE.....would you care to respond to the main body of my blog for once? 

you're welcome! 

What scripture?  Now I'm curious. :)

yes I know.  I was baptized as a youngster in the RCC and later immersed as a teenager when I gave my life to Christ.  I guess you could say that was the start of my life for God. 

I think she just did.  The funny thing is........I'm trying to figure out how she can know this especially since according to RCC doctrine she can't know if she's even going to heaven! 

TW posts:

Nice you're back on JU Texas.

No, I would never say that.

All I'm saying is neither she, nor you, nor any one of us can be absolutely sure we are saved. There are conditions to our salvation which must be met...and Heaven can be lost through grevious unrepentant sin.

This passage gives us moral assurance but not absolute assurance as you claim to have by the title and subtitle of your article. It's a false premise and belief; a dnagerous one too.

KFC WRITES:

This is wrong thinking and wrong teaching, KFC.  

St.Paul did not teach justification by faith alone and no where is it found in the Bible.

The phrase "faith alone" appears once and only once in the Holy Bible...and it's found in St.James 2:24

"Do you see that by works a man is justified;  and not by faith alone."  

KFC writes:

St.James teaches that faith without good works will not save us. So you think you know better than St.James, one of Christ's chosen Apostles? So it's St.James's teaching and not that of Martin Luther's in 1517 that leads to chaos and complication?  

lula posts:

kfc posts:

KFC,

St.Matt 24:13 most certainly is about salvation. The meaning of the term "end" here is not reserved just for the endtimes.

"He who endures to the end will be saved" here means enduring through difficulties, trials, etc. without losing faith until one's death.  Since verse 9 predicts many will be put to death for their faith..this certainly applied to the early Christians and to any age onward to the last days.

Basmas posts: 1

KFC POSTS:

Yes, Basmas, however KFC is forgetting that Scripture tells even the devils have faith; they believe that there is a God; that Jesus is the Son of God, and that He is their Judge.  St.James again...says in 2:19, that "the devils also believe and tremble."

So that alone blows away her theology. She's wrong..it's not ONLY ABOUT BELIEF for according to KFC's interpretation of these passages in her article, the devils by believing are saved.

[quote]Basmas posts: 1



so are you saying all I need to do is belive? It doens't matter what my actions are?[/quote]

Yes, our salvation does matter what our actions are.  Our salvation depends on belief as the foundation and to believe in Christ infers doing all what Christ commanded to be done. "Doing" is an action word as in "doing our actions". If those actions are sins against God, even if we have faith, that is, even if we believe, and die in that state, then we will be judged and sent to Hell.  

A man who believes but goes so far as to commit murder just before he died would lose his salvation Jesus made possible for him personally. That person obviously didn't endure in the faith until the end, did he?

kfc posts #12

St.John 20:23 has Jesus saying "Whose sins you shall forgive are forgiven them". Why should Jesus delegate such a power to the Apostles and their successors (as per the book of Acts) if it were not that the "wages of sin is death",  the loss of salvation?  Romans 6:23

Let's look at your verse above and compare it to what Paul said in Romans 1:17 (Martin Luther's verse):

For here is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH"

He also said what I already wrote in this thread in 4:4-5

"Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation.  However to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." 

Now, how do we reconcile the two?  We know salvation is a "gift" of God right?  We don't work for a gift.   Paul didn't say the just shall live by faith and works now did he?  He said here quite plainly that his faith is credited as righteousness....just like you find in Abraham.  Same thing.  James didn't either when you read it in context. 

Now what's the difference in James and Paul's writing?  At first glance it seems to contradict.  This is the whole reason Luther at first wanted to get rid of the book of James because it didn't fit with the whole of the other scriptures....or so he thought.  It's also the book the RC like you love because it seems as tho James is saying our works justify us before God....but that's not correct. Our works are evidence of who we belong to. 

Here's a breakdown to make it clearer what the two men are saying:

Paul:  Thru faith a man is justifed before God

James:  Thru works a man is justified before men

Paul:  Faith is the root of justification (Rom 5:1)

James:  Works are the fruit of justification

That's the diff.    You are not saved by works.  You are saved by faith.  But your faith is accompanied by works.   You've got your root and your fruit mixed up Lula. 

It's like this:  God saves us (grace thru faith) and then he puts us to work. 

If this wasn't so pathetic it would be funny. If two people whom have dedicated much of their lives to the study of “god's” instruction manual cannot agree on what it is telling them to do, what hope is there for the rest of us to decipher the riddle of what it takes to be “saved”?

Which is more likely? That the bible was written by men and intentionally left ambiguous so as to give the illusion of infallibility, or a stupid god that can't even leave clear instructions and would most likely fail a basic reading comprehension course inspired the bible?

I suppose that’s something to be considered, a retarded god that is. I mean he's omnipotent he just thinks it and it happens, he probably doesn't have a clue how he does it. In fact he's probably chasing some shiny object right now and has long forgotten all about creating us. An omnipotent consciousness would probably have a very short attention span you know.

no, no, no.  The devils don't have faith.  They believe there is a god...that's it.  That's not the same as faith.  Many people believe in god, but have no faith. 

You're giving out wrong information Lula........please keep this in mind...since you're in James go over and read 3:1

"My brothers be not many teachers knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation."

I worked this out a long time ago and take this very seriously.  Since teachers use their tongues (in this case fingers) to instruct others, they will be judged more strictly. 

Lula has not dedicated much of her life to the study of God's instruction manual.  I think she'll be the first to tell you.  I have.  Since I was 10 years old.  What you're seeing here is the diff from one who is strictly reading God's words to one who is listening to what the RCC is telling her God's word says. 

So the diff between me and Lula is the authority of the RCC. 

It's not ambiguous at all really.  The book is just fine.  It's the people who have the problem with the book because they are trying to make it say what they want it to say to fit their organized religion.  So they leave out certain parts and run towards other scripture that sounds better to their ears.  That's why Lula immediately went to another scripture and didn't respond initially to what I said in the main part of this blog.   That's a big indication right there. 

Christ spoke in parables for a reason.  He wants those who are really interested to search out the truths like treasure.  He said this  when questioned about why he spoke in parables:

"Because it is given to you to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of heaven but to them it is not given.  For whosoever has, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance but whosoever has not from him shall be taken away even that he has.  Therefore speak I to them in parables becaue they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.  And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah which said, By hearing you shall hear and shall not understand; and seeing you shall see, and shall not perceive; For this people's heart is waxed gross and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart and should be converted and I should heal them."

kfc posts:

I never said I/we are saved just by works. So don't go there. What I've said all along is that salvation is by both faith and good works which is St. Paul and  St. Jame's teaching and there is no getting around it.

The entire book of St.James concerns what one must do to be saved. He concentrates on obedience to all that Christ commanded (His law of love) and judgment for those who disobey. St.James doesn't support your concept that one can know he is saved as long as he has faith alone. He also refutes your statement that works are the fruit of justification. Both he and St.Paul clearly teach that one must consciously add good works of love to his faith in order to be justfied.  

Works are inspired by faith and not the fruit of justification.

In fact, 4:17 has it that if one chooses not to do good works (in love of God and neighbor) when the opportunity arises, he has sinned. Catholic believe that praying for someone is a "good work".

KFC WRITES: 

Again, we are not saved by faith alone. It's very important to understand that St.Paul never uses the word "alone" as a qualifier or description of faith. For St.Paul, faith carries too much meaning and implicatons to be limited by  the word "alone".

Egads! This statement shows either your extreme bias, your cluelessness or the utter misunderstanding as to the biblical meaning of the term "works".

I've already said we are not saved just by works. All the "good works" in the world prompted by purely natural motives cannot save a man. That's why St.Paul said, If I should give all my goods to feed the poor, and have not charity (love), it profiteth me nothing."

Rather, it's good works inspired by faith in Christ and love for Christ (supernatural charity) that are necessary for gaining towards one's salvation. "Indeed the Son of man will come in glory ...and then He will render to every man according to his works." St.Matt. 16:27.

And that's exactly why St. James says "By works a man is justified, and not by faith alone." So , good works are necessary, for salvation for in v. 26, he finishes saying, "For even as a body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."

kfc posts:

Not me, but Scripture itself has refuted your assertion that one can know with full assurance that he is saved by faith alone.

And speaking of the Good Book, 2 Tim. 3:16-17 fits nicely here..." All Scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice, that the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work."

The explanation for speaking in parables reads like it came right out of the John Edwards psychic friends handbook. Basically the author is saying if what you see in this make sense to you then it was for you, if it doesn't then it was not for you. 

Let's see if this makes sense to you.  For knowledge to exist there must be information, if god is all knowing then he has knowledge of the supernatural and therefore the supernatural must contain information, so by its very definition the supernatural cannot exist.  Now a god may very well be able to create a universe that contains information and laws by his own design however he would have to have knowledge of how to do that and therefore that knowledge would contain information.  So all things are knowable including how a god could create existence since it's just information.

So to believe in a god you must believe that all this information and somehow any new information is not new at all and has always existed.  Where does information come from?  You say god has always had this information, the atheist says this information grew from the simplest expression of it.  Now this explanation still does not explain where that first byte if you will of information came from, however it is by far the simpler explanation. Everything that we know about the universe shows us that information grows and cannot be destroyed. Therefore your explanation of the beginning of the universe by the hand of a god starts from the end instead of the beginning.

Add to that the problem of consciousness before existence and you have a very complicated and implausible hypothesis KFC. 

What are you talking about....I did on my comment #8

kfc writes:

and again in my comment # 14

kfc writes:

and again in my comment #15

kfc writes: