Shamblers and Yeti's aren't good enough

Agreed!

This is pretty obvious to everyone.  Not a single Sedna would get Yetis over Pounce or Heal.

Well-written.

HUH?! Sedna's playstyle is to rush in and fight? No.

Yetis do that for you. Yetis are quite good if you hold back a bit.

There's more to them than the stats...having observed spirits ingame, it's not that simple. They don't just run up and attack.

Sorry I just have to point out where I disagree.

Oak and Erebus have minions which do not scale as much as Sedna nor QoT.

At level 10 minions have base:

Spirits : 840 HP, 64 DMG

Nightwalkers : 1130 HP, 38 DMG

Yetis : 1710 HP, 51 DMG

Shamblers : 675 HP, 30 DMG

In addition to this Yetis have Heavy Armour (same as Giants). Shamblers have 2.5 Radius damage.

Sedna and QoT can also buff their minions with skills.

Qot has compost which can add 14 DMG and 360 HP to base and Entourage which adds 750 and 30 DMG.

Sedna has Magnificant Presence +200 HP and +15% Attack speed and Healing Wind 2, which gives them +24 HP/sec.

So Yetis can be 1910 HP, with 24 HPs regen and +15% attack speed.

Shamblers can be 1785 HP with 74 DMG.

Shamblers are also ranged, meaning they do not suffer from pathing problems.

Yes, they are still weaker than 10 minions combined, however, they are far sturdier and less vulnerable to AoE than Oak or Erebus.

This sentence makes no sense, you are saying that one DG is gimped because they have to rely on minions too much, yet you say that another DG needs to rely on their minions more. You would just end up doing the same, but the other way around.

I would argue that QoT actually has great minions and a great supporting skill tree. The problem is that most player don't know how to use that and write it off. I have played minion based QoT a lot and it is a lot of fun and most probably her most powerful build.

Sedna is indeed gimped with her minions, however, this is mainly due to the fact that Yetis are dam slow and stupid. Pumped up they are great building smashers, but they are poor at taking down DGs and spend more time hitting grunts.

A big factor you haven't mentioned is that both Erebus and Oak have a snare, this improves their minions a great deal, as DGs will have trouble running away. Part of the problem of Sedna and QoT is that they cannot snare and so a DG can easily get away, especially as their minions are slower.

Also, Spirits have no pathing problems, furthering their ability to chase down DGs, Nightcrawlers are smaller and have less pathing issues.

I don't think QoT needs to be changed apart from a slight decrease in the casting of shamblers, this is killer, especially at early levels. I would also possibly add that she should have 6 shamblers instead of 4.

Sedna needs her Yetis to either be ranged or the ability to go through creeps. Possibly change wild swings so that it knocks creeps out of the way, also make it a lower end skill, maybe after counter healing. The mana cost needs to be dramatically reduced for Yetis too. She has plenty of skills that synergize with Yetis, she doesn't need anything else, that is what makes QoT unique. I would also buff their HP and DMG at later levels up a little more.

I don't disagree with most of your analysis, but I do disagree with the end conclusion. QoT is an interesting DG to play, with great minion based skills. Sedna has more immediately powerful assassin build type skills, she is let down by having immensely stupid minions.

Oak's minions add to his attack damage. (Assuming you get that skill).  They also have no pathing issues.  They also suck tower hits to them and result in no aoe damage to the surrounding creeps and minions.

Erebus' are FREE even if you don't put a single point into them.

It's not a matter of scaling.  It's a matter of usefulness.  Minions as a whole suck.  But at least Oak's suck less than the others.  Erebus' are free, so they're just a bonus to his normal abilities (and can be cheap tanks/distractions otherwise).

excellant post. I want a change in the yeti's and shamblers to make them more of option. Oak and erebus are the only viable minion users for the reasons stated in this post.

nice post

i've tested full minion builds for all generals, and erebus and oak profit way more of morale and minion items simply

beacuse they have more minions...

simply take Hauberk of Life for example

+200 hp on 10 nightwalkers make 2000 hp more total

while +200hp on 4 crappy yetis make only 800

same goes for +dmg on gloves of fell dakur, ashkandor and ring of divine might...

dps increase is sick if you somwhow manage to stack those three items plus max morale on an "army of the night erebus"

add life steal aura and your walkers leech about 24 hp each hit and your siege demolishers deal about 75ish dmg every 0,5 secs

compared to that sedna and queen are way inferior when it comes to pure minion builds

good post. i agree with all your points.  

QoT has Spike Wave, which snares.

I think Zechno's point on QoT is valid. If I go shamblers, then I pretty much HAVE to get mulch and compost and entourage to have decent minions, otherwise it's almost no point. This means I'd have to gimp shield and other ability trees that simply seem to be a better investment.

And, I don't think there's anyone who can say no matter how you play Sedna, assassin build > minion build. And actually, yes, Sedna does rush in and fight. 1000 unmitigated damage pounce every 4-7 seconds is crazy, with constant healing and regen. A Sedna that stays back is gimping herself.

I played a few mean minion QoT's recently...

That's not a good way to look at it because who is focus firing a spirit?  Every addtional spirit's supposed multiplier on a health bonus is the same multiplier on damage taken when they ultimately get rain of iced or spiked or whatever.  All it really does is give them all an extra 200hp vs whatever AoE spell may kill them (which now hopefully will not).  The actual number of them is irrelevant.  HPs help every DG's minions equally more or less.

While you are correct about damage items and morale damage bonuses helping greater numbers, it's not as bad as it looks initially because it's not necessarily 4vs10.  Each general can have 6 more so it could be 10 vs 16, in which case the ratio isn't as bad.  Instead of 2.5x more minions it's 1.6x more.  Further, QoT and Sedna can have 4 with only 3 skill points, meaning Oak only gets 7+6=13 so 1.3x more.  But now the comparisons are starting to get ridiculous because you could counter that Oak keeps getting free resummons, but then I might say his need to be free where QoT's might survive naturally, and QoT's spikes massively buffs her minions beyond what surge does..but surge returns mana with judgement blah blah blah...  The truth is that in practice they all seem fairly effective but one should be less likely to buy fel minion gloves as QoT than Oak, just as Regulus is even less likely.  I don't actually see the issue with this so long as overall balance is maintained.  Sedna is already powerful running at speed 92 with 300 hps regen and heal and double interrupt, maybe it was felt that she didn't need the best minions as well.  Having said all that, it does seem that the mana cost is a bit insane as you basically can only cast while at a crystal..but then...you should be able to keep them alive with their health and armor anyway.

Also, even with worst case scenario above with the 2.5x ratio thing, that is fairly commital of Oak with his skill points and he becomes far less powerful vs any AoE or a couple of the AoE stuns or a hex scroll or... The more and more you go all-out minion the more you should lose against someone who is paying attention.  He thus shouldn't gain any real additional benefit out of say damage gloves, because the other team should be negating this damage.  They'd still be strong vs towers I guess..

I would actually say to leave everything as it is until the game is more mature and players develop and some top team plays some other top team and they keep losing because zomg imba Oak or zomg useless Sedna.  Until then, leave it be..

Seanner, you are kinda rambling, but let me try to pull the points you were making out of that post:

Sedna can get 4 yeti's with 3 skill points, Oak can get 7 spirits: This is really a bad comparison.  Each of those yeti's costs a bankload of mana, and re-summoning them on the battlefield is both time consuming and not horribly cost effective.

Idol Minions make the percentage less in favor: Well, we aren't really talking about percentages per se, and while in 'theory' you could also have a full rack of idol minions... this is not really a good strategy for the most part.

Sedna has strong health regen, is good enough already: You don't help your case by citing ridiculous numbers (9.2 speed and 300 hps). And we aren't arguing here whether or not she is a good Demigod... just that it never makes sense to get Yeti's with her, and the reasons behind our decision. I am not in this discussion arguing that Oak is too good, or Sedna too weak.

Something about being fairly commital of oak and his skill points: I made a skill point per skill point comparison here.  If you want to see commitment, try making good use out of Mulch Shambler.

Hit points are not more effective accross multiple minions, due to AoE: A large percentage of the game is not played with AoE.  Yes, some effects do it very effectively, but even then once you are past the AoE Cap... that is the amount of AoE damage someone is likely to do, all the extra hp are still relevant. There are a multitude of non AoE sources you regularly encounter, from grunts, to towers (especially rooks) to basic auto attacks.

Also, because of the way spirits move, they are very unlikely to be fully blasted by an AoE; they can move fast enough to avoid a RoI, and they fly around in crazy loops that causes them to be hard to target (damn near impossible with a melee DG) with AoE spells.

A Queen of Thorns using a shambler build is very powerful. She can out dps many other demigods, including assassins, and has strong staying power thanks to munch. If you have a full set of minions, including those from idols, and you get a spike debuff onto an enemy demigod attack you in 1v1, you can rip him apart in seconds.

However, killing demigods with such a build is difficult, since the burst is low, and her opponent can simply run away.

Many players just plain disregard minion builds, because their strengths are less obvious. And perhaps a bit less fun.

But in my opinion the original poster is right in his assertions that minion builds could be a bit stronger, especially Sedna's.

A minion Sedna or QoT can do well, but it's usually easier to go without them. For both Sedna and QoT it takes a lot of skill points to make them worthwhile. This is an issue since it takes Oak and Erebus far less to make use of their minions, and Oak's minions even provide a direct benefit (more damage) to him. Even Oak' flag provides a benefit to the area around it.

I'd play with Shamblers if I didn't have to invest in "Entourage" just to make them worth my time. I suppose if their mana cost was much, much, lower then they'd probably be worth using even without Entourage as I could just resummon them. In the end I feel the major issue with Shamblers and Yetis is the mana cost and not much else.

They have lots of health and are being passively healed by priests and a strong aura.  They aren't supposed to die.  Worst case, they die, you resummon at a crystal when you buy items/die/whatever.  If an enemy tries to focus fire a yeti you just focus fire him and that battle will be very one sided..  If some sort of situation presents itself where your minions aren't working, you stop getting them.  Yetis are one option.

Same reason maxing out spirits and morale and minion items isn't the best strategy.  Minions are counterable.  The whole idea here is that Oak's extra minions either just end up extra countered (more AoE damage/snare/attack debuff) or the enemy isn't bothering to counter, in which case buying idols makes sense.  Regardless of exact minion numbers, more minions means gloves and armor are more effective you are correct, just as they are less effective on Regulus.  I could argue that certain items work better on Regulus than they do on Oak, but this does not mean that Oak should be buffed.  Following this logic out, every character is too weak and too strong because they are different from each other.

That was actually 92 speed, not 9.2.  It was intentionally an exaggeration because at end game it may as well be that high.  Anyway, if you aren't discussing the overall strength's and weaknesses of the DGs, you are wasting time...I will argue that all of the assassins need way better minions.  And Oak's snipe and mine throw suck, btw.

Are not free health potions good to have?  In a perfect situation, mulch surpasses bite when the AoE hits a few things.

Completely wrong..when you have 10 spirits with 800 health, how do they die?  One at a time from TB casting fireball at them as fast as he can?  Has anyone ever had their minions get chain killed one at a time?  You can't seriously think that +200 hp on 10 spirits gives you 2k health in the same way that giving a DG 2k health gives the DG 2k health.  First, a particular spirit only has 200 more hp.  Second, nobody and no AI is focus firing a spirit, so that "2k buff" is never going to be helpful in that manner.  UB isn't going to hit wand of speed, rush in, and start pounding away at spirits one at a time.  Then he'll get to the very last 10th and final spirit, barely about to kill it, you'll micro it away saying, "Thank god I got that health upgrade!"  Actually by that point it's probably the 29th spirit as they keep getting resummoned with wards everywhere.  And no, that doesn't mean you have 5.8k extra health of spirits for him to chew through because he's not stupid enough to do that.  It means your spirit has 200 more hp, just like a shambler would have.

Seanner, you cannot possibly be arguing that going down the Yeti skill line for Sedna is more viable than ANY OTHER skill line. Because there is absolutely no way you can justify this position. Other than morale skill line. MAYBE.

Ooze would destroy the spirits, and it will destroy all other minions as well, UB is a poor example of someone who would have difficulty countering a minion build.

I play Sedna a lot, I'm told I'm a bit of a bitch to play against, and I can tell you that Yetis are completely worthless compared to the other skills you need to stay alive against good opposition. Sedna does very little damage, but with two strong interrupts, a giant heal, and good passive regen you can stay at the front and take hits while your allies wreak havoc. Anyone who is staying at the back and "supporting" is doing it wrong. And this talk of "healing yetis"...WHAT??? How about you heal your allied player, wouldn't that be more useful? I'm pretty sure Rook does more damage than a Yeti.

Not sure what HP/S regen you're getting, but my builds are nowhere near 300, the game is over long before that. I take some grace, some wind, botf, narmoths...gives in the region of 70 HP/S in the mid game.

As has been pointed out, Yetis cost a lot of mana, can't close the gap on enemy characters, don't deal a huge amount of damage when they do, suffer pathfinding issues, and mean you need to sacrifice at least one skillpoint in something else. So you can down towers with them...you can down towers with anything, towers just take a concerted push by your team, and you shouldn't be doing it alone anyway, certainly not with Yetis.

One skillpoint is the difference between an 800HP and a 600HP pounce, or a 900HP + debuff removal vs a 600HP heal. Or an extra second of Silence. I'm not going to speculatively put one point into yetis on the off chance that my opponent is braindead and doesn't know how to deal with them. To make yetis an attractive option they need to be able to compete with those three skills, and I honestly can't see how that's going to happen without changing the focus of yetis from doing damage to something else (eg healing or buffing others).

In short, I don't take Sedna as a DPS machine, you have other team members for that, her minions should reflect that role and compliment it rather than trying to make up for her low DPS. Give me more summonable priests or something.

I think giving Yetis some sort of passive aura buff would be good, like a defense aura, decreasing damage taken in a radius. That way they can act kind of like "guardians," with auras stacking from each yeti, going from ~1% at 1 skill point to maybe ~4% at 4 skill points, each yeti.

800 vs 600 dmg pounce isn't all that much of a difference though..it has a poor range and functions better as an interrupt.  A 400 damage pounce is just as good vs hammer rook for example.  Silence and pounce prevents anything worse than one slam which gets insta half healed by a priest plus massive aura regen, meanwhile rook gets beatdown by mass minions.

Let's compare higher pounce (say 800 vs 400) to yetis:

7 attacks x2 yetis at 30 damage = 420 damage..sure 7 attacks takes more time but they will be doing more damage with items and you will have saved a skill point.  You can kite rook and avoid melee while your minions attack..in fact the move speed differences (that you can increase with that skill point) pretty much ensure you can literally run a circle around rook as she dies.  Also, higher pounce costs higher mana mid-fight as opposed to yetis that should've already been summoned at a crystal.  The thing is that each skill point requires more and more mana to use..you can't go around silence/pounce/heal/pounce/... all game without stacking mana.  When people get better at surviving it will turn more and more into wars of attrition.  Less mana per skill and more free damage and better health and speed items will rule the day (items purchased with money saved by not getting mana items).

Even if one points out that yetis are still the weakest, are they too weak?  This is what happens when they get buffed.  People use them, they beat down on players and towers alike, then everyone complains nerf yetis because when I attack Sedna she just runs away and heals or the yetis start killing me and I get pounced and silenced man it's so lame wtf f-u gpg.  They are too weak because they dare not be any stronger..

I still don't think the metagame has reached the point where people are learning to not die on their own and use the 3/4 generals heal/shield/invincibility (4/4 including mist) and items perfectly to basically never die in a team battle vs primitive and obvious lolnuke tactics.  In this future world of Demigod, anything you can do beyond simple nuking will become an advantage.  The exception being a hypothetical 20v20, because the only valid tactic is for everyone to pick Regulus, unless perhaps the cooldown is too long vs the number of spirits 20 Oaks could get up to attack the citadel...I don't know.  I guess the map size would come into play here.  So even in this fantasy land of 20 Reguluseseses, I can't guarantee the usefulness of maxing snipe over having more minions!

You're seriously suggesting Pounce is worse than Yetis?

Pounce damage is front loaded, which is *ALWAYS* better than slow, continuous damage.  You can pounce and run away.  You can pounce someone before *they* run away.  It interrupts.  It has super low cooldown.  It can't be frost nova'd or stunned or killed by aoe.

That extra 200 damage from 1 point of Pounce every !4-6 seconds is definitely more than you'll ever get from your Yetis...who cannot interrupt, and who die, and who cannot kill fleeing DGs.

The bottom line with Sedna is that Heal > Pounce >> Yetis.  If you are spending any points in the Yeti line, those are points you're not spending in the Heal or Pounce lines.  I consider Heal, when you can use it correctly, to be the single best skill in the entire game.  Throwing a heal on a wounded teammate can often completely change the course of that battle, turning a loss for your team into a loss for another.  It is cheap to cast, has good range and has a quick cool down.  Starting at level 7, Sedna can heal off all negative effects, including posion daggers, diseased claws, bite effects and venom spit.

Sedna can make a good team unstoppable with heal.  Her main drawback is that she will suffer if she has lousy teammates.  I can't tell you how many times that I've jumped into a fight to heal teammates only to have them not notice and run away, leaving me to be ganked during cooldown.  Healing a crap teammate is always taking your life into your own hands.