Faction Idea: Anti-magic Zealots

from Elemental Forums

Ok. So continuing from my previous I'd like to give an example of a faction as I envision it. This is a faction that given the backstory I think just must be included in the game. Since the world was destroyed by a cataclysm caused by magic users trying to harness magic for their own advantage there should be a faction based on the ideal that magic is evil. Or at least using magic is evil. Essence is considered to be different, not so much magic as a sort of spiritual force from the channeler.


This would be based on idea 2 from my previous thread about factions where the channeler himself has an ideal that he brings with him and becomes a kind of prophet to the people. This faction would of course be very restrictive as the only magic that could be used or researched would be counter magic spells, also standard unit enchantments would not be allowed. However this faction would greatly excel in mundane technology, counter magic, and physical combat.

Their units would get a bonus in combat because of their zeal for their cause (saving earth against the evil magic users who would destroy it again) they also are nearly immune to war weariness and resistant to unrest because of the populaces dedication to the cause and elief in it's necessity. They would have a wider mundane tech tree than most other factions to make up for their lack of magic. Eventually as your mana pool builds up some of your people will become 'naturally' magical absorbing some of the free magic in the earth that is plentiful because you're not using it, giving them special abilities.

It's very important to note that for this and all religious type factions your bonus depends on how strong your people's faith is. Faith can be influenced positively by the presence of your channeler in population cities, the construction of religious schools and temples, and preforming certain actions in line with your faction philosophy. Or negatively by time if your people aren't being instructed and awed by your institution, or severely impacted by preforming forbidden actions (like researching and casting spells for this faction).

In addition as you play you can choose the path of your faction that will affect the options you have later in the game. The paths I see for this faction are such:

Guardians of the Planet: Your people moderate their beliefs. While still no magic is allowed your people view maigc as a natural part of nature and the planet that should be allowed to exist naturally not controlled by men. This path would give less of a bonus to combat but would GREATLY increase the likelihood of magical creatures joining your faction because they would feel safe from abuse/expirimentation they might fear from others. Your people are very accepting of magical creatures even given them reverence as near godlike beings.

Bringers of Judgement: Your people are built up to a frenzy of holy war. They believe all magic must be destoyed, including natural magical creatures. Your people's intense zeal gives them great bonuses on a war footing but you can no longer get magical creature to join your side and most mercenaries/heroes shy away from you.

Technologists: Your people believe that the worlds salvation lies in mundane technology. Convincing people that they do not need to use magic because the same results can be achieved through technology. This path opens up the highest mundane technologies as your people are far more creative in that way having to subsist without any magical assistance.

There could be other paths for this factions or hybrids between them.

12,813 views 29 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

I'm not entirely sure it would be a good idea to entierly remove the magic angle from a faction. These guys sound more like a "minor race", for you GC2 fans out there.

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

It's not true that the magic angle is 'completely' removed. You still use counter magic and you have people that get 'natural' magical abilities kinda like your channeler.

 

n addition, if you don't want to play a faction with the restriction (and many won't) then there will be plenty of other factions to play.

Sins of a Solar Empire: Rebellion
Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

I know I thought of this kind of thing, more from scoutdog's angle.  (almost no magic)

Logically speaking, if a group feared and hated magic,  they would not use counter magic.  The idea of "fighting fire with fire" just does not work to a group that has a deep hatred of fire.   They would accept the bare minimum from their channeler, treating it is a "nessicary evil" and lash out with prejudice against anything else.    I'd want this faction to limit the magic used by the channeler too, forcing the channeler to go down a level-progression similar to that of a warrior hero.

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

I think an 'evil emperor' would make for an interesting faction.  Basically - the people of the faction are completely against magic, and the channeler preaches against magic.  However, the channeler is con-person, and uses magic frequently.  However, to keep the people enraged against the 'other evil magic users', all spells used by the channeler are limited to those that cannot be witnessed by his/her own people / traced back to the channeler.

 

It's not a new idea, but I wonder if it would make for an interesting faction within elemental. 

 

"Did you hear about that volcano that erupted beyond the mountains, in the middle of the city ?  That's what people who use magic deserve"

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting landisaurus, reply 3
I know I thought of this kind of thing, more from scoutdog's angle.  (almost no magic)

Logically speaking, if a group feared and hated magic,  they would not use counter magic.  The idea of "fighting fire with fire" just does not work to a group that has a deep hatred of fire.   They would accept the bare minimum from their channeler, treating it is a "nessicary evil" and lash out with prejudice against anything else.    I'd want this faction to limit the magic used by the channeler too, forcing the channeler to go down a level-progression similar to that of a warrior hero.

I think that you could go without counter magic too depending on the course you take for your faction. The Holy War type path would probably not even have counter magic. I just thought counter magic might be important for game balance to let them compete against their opponents. The counter magic could be highly ritualized so that people view it as a religious ceremony warding against evil magic or dispelling or banishing it.

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting MindALot, reply 4
I think an 'evil emperor' would make for an interesting faction.  Basically - the people of the faction are completely against magic, and the channeler preaches against magic.  However, the channeler is con-person, and uses magic frequently.  However, to keep the people enraged against the 'other evil magic users', all spells used by the channeler are limited to those that cannot be witnessed by his/her own people / traced back to the channeler.

 

It's not a new idea, but I wonder if it would make for an interesting faction within elemental. 

 

"Did you hear about that volcano that erupted beyond the mountains, in the middle of the city ?  That's what people who use magic deserve"

Yeah I thought about this too. And you could do this but if people discovered your actions their faith would be devastated and unrest would skyrocket so it would be very risky.

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

I see the main probelm being that they are not allowed to use magic, and would thus get clobbered every single time. That's why I said they'd make a good "minor race": they might put up a good fight, but there's basically no chance that theyu might actuially win.

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

They couldn't use magic true. But there are other ways to balance this. Their soldiers are stronger and they cna make more of them because the population supports the war. They can develop powerful counter magic to protect themselves from enemy magic or destroy enemy benificial magic. And they develop strong mundane technologies to help offset not having magic.

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top

Rather than a faction it seems like such a group would be awesome "barbarians" per Civ.

Reply #10 from Elemental Forums Top

Yes. The fact is, magic is shaping up to be such a huge part of Elemental, I don't think you could seriously stand a chance without it. It is, after all, a War of Magic.

Reply #11 from Elemental Forums Top

Thematicly, I like the idea. Mechanicly, I think it'd be hard to combine with the other aspects of Elemental and it's world - especially as a viable competitor.

On a slightly related note, I think you'd enjoy this thread since you're obviously creative.

Reply #12 from Elemental Forums Top

Well if they don't do it I could always mod them in if the modding engine is flexible enough...

Reply #13 from Elemental Forums Top

Indeed you could. Plus, as I repeatedly said, they would make a great minor player.

Reply #14 from Elemental Forums Top

It could be possible for a channeler to be, pur-say, completely ignorant to the fact that S/He is a channeler and be totally anti-magic....

Anyone ever watched Dave Chappelles skit about a black man (who was blind) and also a white supremicist who was ignorant to his true ethnicity. it was totally funny, used the N-word in just about every other sentence but it did show how silly and redundent racism.

Anyway, back to what i'm saying, i can see a channeler who is a religious zealot who uses his/her channeler powers (AKA miracles) to bring life back to the world and to smite the evil doers.

Reply #15 from Elemental Forums Top

Me, to. That makes perfect sense.

Reply #16 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Sarudak, reply 8
They couldn't use magic true. But there are other ways to balance this. Their soldiers are stronger and they cna make more of them because the population supports the war. They can develop powerful counter magic to protect themselves from enemy magic or destroy enemy benificial magic. And they develop strong mundane technologies to help offset not having magic.

They'd have trouble building up their population/resources though, since you need magic to make areas of the world habitable/usable. And the biggest, most powerful and most in-your-face-obvious variety at that: essence needs to be used to revive areas of the world.

Reply #17 from Elemental Forums Top

I adressed that. Essence is not considered magic by the people. It's not wrong by their philosohpy either because it's not controlling or abusing the maigc of the earth. Instead it is considered to be the spiritual power of you the channeler/prophet.

Reply #18 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Sarudak, reply 17
I adressed that. Essence is not considered magic by the people. It's not wrong by their philosohpy either because it's not controlling or abusing the maigc of the earth. Instead it is considered to be the spiritual power of you the channeler/prophet.

They can call it all they like, it's still magic. (and so are their special anti-magic powers, most likely)

Not that hugely hippocritical fanatics are in any way impossible, but they are likely to get a lot of "I call BS" in their contacts with others. With considerable evidence. Enough so that only the most insanely fanatical would not get doubts.

My point is that it's not a long-term viable position to take. They'd need absurd amounts of repression to keep a decent-sized population in line. (They'd make a good random/scripted event though)

As an aside: IIRC it was not magic in the hands of Humans/Fallen that caused the devastation but in the hands of gods/godlike creatures. (again, nothing a true fanatic can't gloss over though)

Reply #19 from Elemental Forums Top

I don't know that I agree that essence = magic, when I say that I mean I don't know that that is strictly true according to the lore. Essence seems more like the life force of the channeler himself. Something separate from magic or it could simply be replaced by mana.


The anti-magic powers are magic. No glossing over that. But unless there's some other was to destroy magical constructs I don't see how they could do without it.

Over a hundred years ago, the world of Elemental was nearly destroyed by the powers that strode across the world like titans. In their quest for dominance, they unleashed utter devastation on the land, nearly wiping out all life.

I guess that's true that we don't know that it was humans using the magic. But we also don't know that it WASN'T humans using the magic.

Reply #20 from Elemental Forums Top

I see essence as a "magical" concept in the sense that it does not exist in our world, however it is not the same force as the magic that makes up spells.

Unfortunately, in a game as magic-centered as Elemental is shaping up to be, I doubt that a faction completely incapable of "offensive" magic could survive to be anything maore than a minor player. Although you could always mod them in to see what happens...

Reply #21 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Sarudak, reply 19
I guess that's true that we don't know that it was humans using the magic. But we also don't know that it WASN'T humans using the magic.

I'm pretty sure we do. We know that the people responsible for the cataclysm were the same people (or at least of the same race as) the ones who created the Fallen (using humans as a template), in an effort to make a slave race superior to humans. It seems unlikely to me that humans would create the Fallen to be 'better' than themselves and expect to maintain them as slaves.

Quoting Scoutdog, reply 20
I see essence as a "magical" concept in the sense that it does not exist in our world, however it is not the same force as the magic that makes up spells.

Well, essence is required for some spells, so my opinion is that essence is 'merely' another magical component, like mana. More potent, maybe, and maybe of a different nature, but still inherently magic. But really, we don't know and it's entirely up to Stardock to figure out what it is and whether it is or isn't inherently magical...

Reply #22 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Sarudak, reply 19


Over a hundred years ago, the world of Elemental was nearly destroyed by the powers that strode across the world like titans. In their quest for dominance, they unleashed utter devastation on the land, nearly wiping out all life.

I guess that's true that we don't know that it was humans using the magic. But we also don't know that it WASN'T humans using the magic.

IIRC the first bits of story that were mentioned tied the event to a Dread Lords Vs Arnor storyline. (though the latter's equivalent is differently named, it's similar to the point that some people speculated that Elemental is the history of GC2's Altaria. It mentioned a renegade Arnor called "Draginol" banishing a Dread Lord "Lord Kona" to a different world, for instance.) They might not technically be gods in the conventional sense, but in the setting they fill that general role.

Reply #23 from Elemental Forums Top

Wouldn't that imply that the 'magic' of the previous era was no more than highly advanced technology?

Reply #24 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Sarudak, reply 23
Wouldn't that imply that the 'magic' of the previous era was no more than highly advanced technology?

No, not necessarily. The Altarians' history says that they used to actually be able to wield something called "Dark Energy" and in the one of the expansion packs they actually gain the ability (via research) to re-connect to that source. Basically, magic. Also, the Arnor and Dread Lords had significant innate power of their own, separate from technology.

Reply #25 from Elemental Forums Top

In any event, the devs have gone to great lengths in order to differentiate the two games. If they really were supposed to be on the same linear timeline, I think they would have made that fact much more obvious. They may be put together in "spirit", however... just like with MoM.