Sotomayor and Liberal Hypocrisy

Actions that are Affirmative

President Obama’s choice of Judge Sonia Sotomayor to replace Justice David Souter is yet another attempt at pandering to a goodly swath of voters. Latinos are no doubt happy with his choice; I’m sure they’ll vote accordingly.
Sotomayor, however, describes herself as “the perfect product of Affirmative Action; (I’m) an Affirmative Action baby. My test scores were not as high as some of my colleagues at Princeton and Yale…”
So there it is, in her own words.
Do you know what this means? It means that, somewhere out there, there are likely at least a few other judges, her “colleagues at Princeton and Yale”, who---lacking the proper ethnic qualities or economic circumstances to garner them minority status, actually had to work for their grades--are much more qualified for the position.
She was able to coast through law school on Affirmative Action, handed her grades through slack, mandated by a government program, and now sees nothing wrong with being coasted into a lifetime gig on the Supreme Court in essentially the same way, and for the same reasons.
Affirmative Action is, and always has been patently, and even dangerously, unfair, despite its obvious attempt at mandating fairness.
I say “dangerously” because…well, I'll cite a case heard by Sotomayor herself; in 2003, the New Haven, CT Fire Dept. decided to base its promotions to lieutenant and captain on test scores, a logical move.
However, only one of those firemen receiving passing test scores proved to be a black man; all of the others were white.
In other words, this policy---requiring leaders of their FD to exhibit proper knowledge and skills to safely, effectively and efficiently hold the positions---would’ve left the New Haven FD less than “diverse”. They couldn’t have that! So naturally, the city threw out that horribly racist, unfair policy.
One of the higher scorers, a white man, rightfully sued for reverse discrimination. Sotomayor, doubtlessly drawing upon her positive life and career experiences with Affirmative Action, ruled against him.
Affirmative Action has always been ill-conceived and unfair. It’s yet another example of liberals celebrating mediocrity, and denigrating excellence and exceptionality, all in the name of that ever-important dynamic: “fairness”. Or, at least, the liberal's version of it.
Everything must be made “fair”; everybody gets a gold medal, regardless how illogical or wrong-headed that vision may be.
Know what isn’t fair? Life. Sometimes, people just aren’t talented, or smart, enough to do the things they want. Maybe they have to do something else. It’s discriminatory, yes, but that’s the way it is; deal with it.
Letting some people slide through the rigors of college and career based on accident of birth, however, simply isn’t fair; to others, or even to them.
Just as a last observation, you know what else isn’t fair?
The Theory of Evolution; weaker species getting axed by stronger, more adept classes. Doesn’t everyone--everything--deserve the right to prosper and thrive? Not according to Darwin.
But ironically, liberals love his ideas--which clearly oppose Affirmative Action idealology--and battle fanatically for them, typically never realizing their own hypocrisy.
 
13,602 views 32 replies
Reply #1 Top

Latinos are no doubt happy with his choice; I’m sure they’ll vote accordingly.
End of quote

You may want to rephrase that, seeing as, like Sotomayor, I too am Puerto Rican but I do not agree with her appointment as judge. So I am not happy and will not vote accordingly, not that I can vote for her.

I do not believe in Affirmative Action, I have never used it. To me, this is just a way to, rather than eliminate the problem of racism, accpet it but find a way around it. This is like living in a city that is overrun by crime and rather than our leaders doing something to eliminate crime, they simply give every person in the city a gun so that they have equal ability to fight the criminals themselves, but in the end never resolves the issue and in turn actually makes those who were not criminal take a criminal mentality in order to survive the crime infested city.

Affirmative Action has a similar effect, basically it attempts to overcome racism by giving those in minority positions more power to succeed but what no one realizes is, like Obama's stimulus package, this power (money) has to come from somewhere. That somewhere is those who actually work hard and earn higher positions and more money but are denied these rewards because it's not fair to those who don't work hard enough or are not capable of reaching the goal to earn these rewards. Basically, what this does is, rather than raise our society to a higher level by bringing everyone up to higher standards, we lower our standards so that those at the bottom are equals.

We are basically creating a society where it's learning curb is not the smartest person but the least smartest.

Reply #2 Top

Imagine if the position of President of the US was based on those same premises? Imagine where we would be today had our ancestors based their leadership on the least smartest person?

Reply #3 Top

I know what affirmative action is supposed to achieve, but I wonder how a person can be proud of the fact that they got something because of their color. I wouldn't for me. I guess it really boils down to money...I got mine, screw you. The best way IMO to achieve equality is not by give-a-ways. The problem needs to be fixed at the root, starting with education. The minorities also have to want to fix the cycle, there are many that do. But, I'm amazed at times to live in a society where mediocrity is encouraged and thugs with poor languages skills are idolized. Sadly it's washing over to much of the youth regardless of race or culture.

When I go to a place of business (local government more than commercial) and I see that everyone behind the counter is a minority, that's fine by me. When that person asks me to repeat myself while using the worst grammar in the English language all while acting like they are doing me a favor (entirely different attitude while assisting a member of their own minority), that's when I perceive a problem. When the best and brightest are passed over for this, what is the point of trying? Whenever I have an experience with someone on top of their game, especially a younger person, I always express to them how much I appreciate their assistance (or whatever the reason for the interaction).

We willingly on average except and expect sub-par performance. Just look at government for examples. We shouldn't be so surprised by statements like Sotomyor's. Accomplishment is not the only way to have your ticket stamped and entitlement is a badge of honor for some. We've had veteran presidents from the Revolutionary War through WWII, now we have our first veteran of affirmative action president. It makes one so proud to be an American.

Reply #4 Top

Quoting CharlesCS, reply 1

Latinos are no doubt happy with his choice; I’m sure they’ll vote accordingly.


You may want to rephrase that, seeing as, like Sotomayor, I too am Puerto Rican but I do not agree with her appointment as judge. So I am not happy and will not vote accordingly, not that I can vote for her.

I do not believe in Affirmative Action, I have never used it. To me, this is just a way to, rather than eliminate the problem of racism, accpet it but find a way around it. This is like living in a city that is overrun by crime and rather than our leaders doing something to eliminate crime, they simply give every person in the city a gun so that they have equal ability to fight the criminals themselves, but in the end never resolves the issue and in turn actually makes those who were not criminal take a criminal mentality in order to survive the crime infested city.

Affirmative Action has a similar effect, basically it attempts to overcome racism by giving those in minority positions more power to succeed but what no one realizes is, like Obama's stimulus package, this power (money) has to come from somewhere. That somewhere is those who actually work hard and earn higher positions and more money but are denied these rewards because it's not fair to those who don't work hard enough or are not capable of reaching the goal to earn these rewards. Basically, what this does is, rather than raise our society to a higher level by bringing everyone up to higher standards, we lower our standards so that those at the bottom are equals.

We are basically creating a society where it's learning curb is not the smartest person but the least smartest.
End of CharlesCS's quote

You're one man; I'd be willing to bet that most of the (non-Cuban) Latino population---traditionally Democratic voters, which is why the Democrats harp loudest on amnesty for illegals---look favorably on Obama for this favor, and will vote his way in 2012.

Other than that, I agree completely with what you wrote. Affirm. Act. does nothing to lift anyone up, as it was intended; rather, it allows them, and thus our society and culture, to stagnate, since it pretty much brings everyone to the same level, and thusly they've nothing to fear from failure.

Quoting CharlesCS, reply 2
Imagine if the position of President of the US was based on those same premises? Imagine where we would be today had our ancestors based their leadership on the least smartest person?
End of CharlesCS's quote

For a microcosm of that idea, just look at the Republican Party today!XD

Reply #5 Top

Quoting Nitro, reply 3
I know what affirmative action is supposed to achieve, but I wonder how a person can be proud of the fact that they got something because of their color. I wouldn't for me. I guess it really boils down to money...I got mine, screw you. The best way IMO to achieve equality is not by give-a-ways. The problem needs to be fixed at the root, starting with education. The minorities also have to want to fix the cycle, there are many that do. But, I'm amazed at times to live in a society where mediocrity is encouraged and thugs with poor languages skills are idolized. Sadly it's washing over to much of the youth regardless of race or culture.

When I go to a place of business (local government more than commercial) and I see that everyone behind the counter is a minority, that's fine by me. When that person asks me to repeat myself while using the worst grammar in the English language all while acting like they are doing me a favor (entirely different attitude while assisting a member of their own minority), that's when I perceive a problem. When the best and brightest are passed over for this, what is the point of trying? Whenever I have an experience with someone on top of their game, especially a younger person, I always express to them how much I appreciate their assistance (or whatever the reason for the interaction).

We willingly on average except and expect sub-par performance. Just look at government for examples. We shouldn't be so surprised by statements like Sotomyor's. Accomplishment is not the only way to have your ticket stamped and entitlement is a badge of honor for some. We've had veteran presidents from the Revolutionary War through WWII, now we have our first veteran of affirmative action president. It makes one so proud to be an American.
End of Nitro's quote

We just got some new neighbors, and they have a young daughter, a 13-year old, who is starting 8th grade next year. I met her last evening, and was so impressed with her use of vocabulary and grasp of some very mature concepts (she made a comment about Obama that I found most heartwarming; especially coming from such a young person).

I asked her if she knew the meaning of the word "articulate"; she guessed wrong, so I explained it to her, and how she was very articulate and well-spoken. We're moving, and I won't be around to mold her properly---LOL---so I told her to keep at it, stay smart and make something of herself; don't get sucked into the willful downward spiral of so many of the slacker doofuses in this general area.

Reply #6 Top

The Theory of Evolution; weaker species getting axed by stronger, more adept classes. Doesn’t everyone--everything--deserve the right to prosper and thrive? Not according to Darwin.
But ironically, liberals love his ideas--which clearly oppose Affirmative Action idealology--and battle fanatically for them, typically never realizing their own hypocrisy.

End of quote

Wow, are you ignorant of Darwin's theory. Impressive!

 

Reply #7 Top

Quoting Leauki, reply 6




The Theory of Evolution; weaker species getting axed by stronger, more adept classes. Doesn’t everyone--everything--deserve the right to prosper and thrive? Not according to Darwin.
But ironically, liberals love his ideas--which clearly oppose Affirmative Action idealology--and battle fanatically for them, typically never realizing their own hypocrisy.





Wow, are you ignorant of Darwin's theory. Impressive!

 
End of Leauki's quote

Not really; I just boiled it waaay down; this was a letter to the editor, and space is limited.

Reply #8 Top

Wow, are you ignorant of Darwin's theory. Impressive!
End of quote

If you don't mind me saying, it would be nice to see people point out why they think someone is ignorant. It's easy to call someone ignorant, but be considerate of those who also read these articles and the comments on them. We can't read minds.

Reply #9 Top

You're one man;
End of quote

I can assure you there are more although I had to admit that our numbers pale in comparison to those who would celebrate Sotomayor's appointment.

For a microcosm of that idea, just look at the Republican Party today!
End of quote

Hah!, Never looked at it that way. :rofl:

Reply #10 Top

If you don't mind me saying, it would be nice to see people point out why they think someone is ignorant. It's easy to call someone ignorant, but be considerate of those who also read these articles and the comments on them. We can't read minds.

End of quote

I wrote many many articles on Darwin's theory.

In this case the simply point is that Darwin's theory doesn't say anything about rights. It's like someone said in another discussion here on JU (and I should really remember who it was because it was excellent): the theory of gravity does not suggest that we have a moral duty to find the lowest possible spot on the planet and assemble there.

If liberals support Affirmative Action to change the world, it doesn't mean they are hypocritical when they also advocate Darwin's theory of evolution any more than the Civil Aviation Authority is hypocritical by creating regulations for air traffic while being convinced that the theory of gravity is true.

 

Reply #11 Top

It was meant as kind of a humorous analogy, Leauki; not a doctoral thesis paper on the theory itself.

So, they'll support crow-barring the weakest, less talented and less intelligent people into postions for which they aren't at all suited, while excluding the people who are. Yet, at the same exact time, they'll fanatically embrace the idea that the strongest should survive, while the weakest should make way.

In fact, they'll move Heaven and Earth to teach that theory to children as undisputable scientific fact, even though it's full of enormous holes and creates its own, unanswerable questions. Which is why, even after 150 years, it's still called the "Theory" of Evolution.

You don't find that the least bit hypocritical?

Reply #12 Top

I'd say the "stronger overcoming the weaker" is more the law of the jungle than Darwinism. But RW, I believe I understood what you implying. That evolution eventually replaces obsolete types with ones that are more viable under changing circumstances. I don't think anybody needs to argue semantics here as it seems most of the replies are from folks right of center.

IMO when topics like these, which I believe are as clear as night and day, devolve into a discussion on theory or religion, the topic strays from the real problem of right and wrong. Leauki, since this is a political topic, I believe we should forgive any real or perceived transgressions by RW on evolution, and like Charles said, give an insightful response to a comment, if so inclined.

People can be very passionate about AA in the US, as it affects all citizens at some point in their life. I know for a fact I've been pass up for an assignments over my time in the military because they needed a minority to fill the job. I have no problem with anyone of any race or color getting the position because they were the best choice. When I made decisions, I always used the best person for the job, and made sure they were recognized for their effort, That's how it should work, based on personal responsibility. 

Reply #13 Top

I have no problem with anyone of any race or color getting the position because they were the best choice. When I made decisions, I always used the best person for the job, and made sure they were recognized for their effort, That's how it should work, based on personal responsibility.
End of quote
---Nitro Cruiser

 

Unfortunately and obviously, however, that's not always the case, which is why AA is faulty and ill-conceived. Giving people jobs and grades and positions they didn't earn by sweat of brow and/or aren't actually capable of holding, isn't right, fair or safe. Also, the load they may have to carry as part of their job may fall on others, since they may be incapable of carrying that load.

Is that fair to the others?

Reply #15 Top

So, they'll support crow-barring the weakest, less talented and less intelligent people into postions for which they aren't at all suited, while excluding the people who are. Yet, at the same exact time, they'll fanatically embrace the idea that the strongest should survive, while the weakest should make way.

End of quote

No, they do not embrace this idea at all. And neither does Darwin's theory.

Ignoring the fact that Darwin speaks of "fittest", not "strongest", which in this context is irrelevant as your choice of words correctly implies (and so I will use "strongest" for "fittest" below), Darwin's theory says that the strongest _will_ survive, not _should_.

Liberal policies react to the fact that without intervention the strongest will survive, while according to liberal ideology, the weakest should have the same good life.

Liberals here differentiate between nature and morality. They say that even though they KNOW and understand that in nature only the strongest will survive, they BELIEVE that the weakest should be favoured by the system just as much. This is not hypocritical at all, it is merely what morality is about.

It's like recognising that a lion WILL eat the prey but that we might want to BELIEVE that we should help a helpless human child about to be eaten by the lion. When we save the child it doesn't mean we are hypocritical just because we also recognise the fact that without our help the child would have been eaten.

NATURE: Only the strongest survive.

HUMANITY: We can help the weakest.

NATURE: Metal does not fly.

HUMANITY: We can build aircraft and make it fly.

NATURE: Lions eat human children.

HUMANITY: We can interfere and shoot such a lion before he eats the child.

 

In fact, they'll move Heaven and Earth to teach that theory to children as undisputable scientific fact, even though it's full of enormous holes and creates its own, unanswerable questions. Which is why, even after 150 years, it's still called the "Theory" of Evolution.

End of quote

Darwin's theory is indisputable scientific fact. It is right that they should teach it as such. There are no "enormous holes", which is why you will find that only those people see those alleged holes who don't understand Darwin's theory (or what a "theory" is).

You won't find biologists like Richard Dawkins speak of "enourmous holes". The reason is not that he is trying to cover them up, it's simply that he understand Darwin's theory and hence doesn't see the holes which don't exist.

It's easy to see holes in a theory one doesn't understand. Most people who see those "holes" still don't understand what a species is and why there are no "species borders" that could possibly be crossed or not crossed.

And yes, it's obviously still called the "theory". What else would you call it? It's a theory, like the theory of relativity and the theory of gravity or any other scientific theory. It is also fact. You misunderstand the term. A scientific theory is an explanation for facts. It doesn't matter how often it is verified and shown to be fact, it still remains a theory forever or until someone finds evidence that it isn't true after all. If you think that not believing that humans evolved from the same ancestor as apes is a "hole", think again. Because Darwin's theory explains the mechanism by which it happened and unless you find evidence that it cannot have happened, you haven't found a hole at all. (And again, claiming that "species borders" cannot be crossed is not a hole either, because there are no "species borders" in Darwin's theory or on nature. Species branch, they do not border.)

Merely stating that there are "holes" in a theory one doesn't understand (and doesn't want to learn about) isn't enough to demote a theory. And there is also no level beyond "theory" that a "theory" could become. In science a "theory" is the highest level that can be reached.

If you want to doubt a theory, doubt gravity. There is a hole in the theory of gravity. For example, if matter attracts matter, why do gas molecules not fall to the floor but instead fly around the room? Why do gas molecules not attract each other? The theory of gravity is not perfect and scientists are looking for a better theory.

But there hasn't been such a challenge found for Darwin's theory yet. And again, challenges made up by people who don't know what Darwin's theory says do not count.

 

You don't find that the least bit hypocritical?

End of quote

No. As I said, I find your understand of Darwin's theory wanting. But the idea that even though recognising that nature does X it is possibly for humans to promote the opposite -X is not hypocritical at all, even though I disagree with liberals on the usefulness of going against nature in this case.

An airline pilot who flies an aircraft heavier than air through the skies is not a hypocrite when he acknowledges that without propulsion of some kind the same aircraft would drop to the earth as the theory of gravity would predict and would be an idiot if he decided not to teach children in schools that it would.

And a liberal who advocates a social welfare state is not a hypocrite when he acknowledges that without a welfare state the weakest would be the losers and he would be an idiot indeed if he decided not to teach children in schools that that is the case.

 

Reply #16 Top

Leauki posts:

Liberal policies react to the fact that without intervention the strongest will survive, while according to liberal ideology, the weakest should have the same good life.

Liberals here differentiate between nature and morality. They say that even though they KNOW and understand that in nature only the strongest will survive, they BELIEVE that the weakest should be favoured by the system just as much. This is not hypocritical at all, it is merely what morality is about.
End of quote

And a liberal who advocates a social welfare state is not a hypocrite when he acknowledges that without a welfare state the weakest would be the losers and he would be an idiot indeed if he decided not to teach children in schools that that is the case.
End of quote

 

It's like recognising that a lion WILL eat the prey but that we might want to BELIEVE that we should help a helpless human child about to be eaten by the lion. When we save the child it doesn't mean we are hypocritical just because we also recognise the fact that without our help the child would have been eaten.
End of quote

In every society there is no one weaker than the innocent unborn child growing in the womb. Liberal's advocacy for abortion on demand paid for by taxpayer money blows your argument apart.

 

 

 

Reply #17 Top

In every society there is no one weaker than the innocent unborn child growing in the womb. Liberal's advocacy for abortion on demand paid for by taxpayer money blows your argument apart.

End of quote

Non sequitur. My argument (i.e. me stating a few facts) has nothing to do with abortion.

Perhaps I have to update my list to include "abortion":

http://citizenleauki.joeuser.com/article/351847/What_Evolution_Is_And_Isnt

Evolution is not about and has nothing to do with:

1. Theism or atheism.

2. The origin of the universe.

3. The origin of life.

4. One species turning into another.*

5. Christianity.

6. Religion.

7. Politics.

I'll add "evolution" and "morality and ethics" and hope that that clarifies things.

 

Reply #18 Top

Rightwinger writes:

Just as a last observation, you know what else isn’t fair?
The Theory of Evolution; weaker species getting axed by stronger, more adept classes. Doesn’t everyone--everything--deserve the right to prosper and thrive? Not according to Darwin.
But ironically, liberals love his ideas--which clearly oppose Affirmative Action idealology--and battle fanatically for them, typically never realizing their own hypocrisy.
End of quote

leauki posts:

No. As I said, I find your understand of Darwin's theory wanting.
End of quote

Actually, Leauki, it's your own understanding of Darwin's theory that is wanting.

You write:

Evolution is not about and has nothing to do with:

4. One species turning into another.*

End of quote

Yet, the definition of "Evolution" as per the World Book Dictionary and 3 science text books is indeed the very same concept of Darwin's Theory. 

"Evolution" has been used in the scientific field to designate a natural, biological process through which some speck of inorganic matter after eons of time, transmuted into a simple celled organism, then from that into a more complex organism, from which passing from one species to another, all plant, animal and human life came about.  They claim the process or mechanism for Darwin's evolution was by "Natural Selection" and "Survival of the Fittest".

As far as your assertion that one (animal) species does not turn "evolve" into other species, here it is from Charles Darwin himself......From his book "The Descent of Man" 2nd ed. Collier and Son. 1905. Darwin refutes your statement.

"In forming a judgment on this head with reference to man, we must glance at the classification of the Simiadae. This family is divided by almost all naturalists into the Catarrhine group, or Old World monkeys....and into the Platyrhine group or New World monkeys. .....Now, man unquestionably belongs in his dentitiion, in the structure of his nostrils, and some other respects, to the Catarrhine or Old World division.

.....There can, consequently, harldy  be a doubt that man is an offshoot from the Old World Simian stem; and that, under a genealogical point of view, he must be classified with the Catarrhine division. Vol.1, pg. 205.

"The early progenitors of man must have been once covered with hair, both sexes having beards; their ears were probably pointed and capable of movement; and their bodies were provided with a tail, having the proper muscles....The foot was then prehensile, judging from the great toe in the foetus; and our progeniters no doubt, were arboreal  in their habits, and frequented some warm forest-clad land." pg. 214.

"The Simiadae then branched off into two great stems, the New World and the Old World monkeys; and from the latter, at a remote period, Man, the wonder and glory of the universe proceeded." pg. 220.

 "Man, as I have attempted to show, is certainly descended from some ape-like creature." pg. 759.

"The main conclusion arrived at this work, namely that man is descended from some lowly organized form, will I regret to think, be highly distasteful to many. ...For my own part, I would as soon be descended from that heroic little monkey who braved his dreaded enemy in order to save the life of his keeper, or from that old baboon, who descending from the mountains, carried away in triumpth his young comrade from a crowd of astonished dogs----as from a savage who delights to torture his enemies, offers up bloody sacrifices...." pg. 796.

 

lula posts:

In every society there is no one weaker than the innocent unborn child growing in the womb. Liberal's advocacy for abortion on demand paid for by taxpayer money blows your argument apart.


LEAUKI POSTS:

Non sequitur. My argument (i.e. me stating a few facts) has nothing to do with abortion.

End of quote

But it does. Actually, to liberals (like Sotomayor), abortion is social welfare....Darwin's ET being the linchpin.

From Dr. Walt Brown on the social consequences of Darwin's Evolution...

....."we dispose of unwanted animals such as cats and dogs. If humans are just evolved animals, why not terminate an unwanted pregnancy? Isn't it the mother's right? Shoulnd't she have a choice in the matter? After all, the fetus ....is of lesser value than an adult. During the fetus' first three months, it's just a blog of tissue that's not any more important than a little pig or rabbit. Why shouldn't a fetus be terminated if adults or society would benefit? After all, we have a population problem. We must guide our destiny."

 

 

 

Reply #19 Top

Leuki--I'll have to get back to you. We're still in the process of moving, and I'm too short on time to go into such depth. Very well-reasoned, though. I'll enjoy debating this with you, and I will do so. I'll get back to you on this.

Lula posted:

"But it does. Actually, to liberals (like Sotomayor), abortion is social welfare....Darwin's ET being the linchpin.

From Dr. Walt Brown on the social consequences of Darwin's Evolution...

....."we dispose of unwanted animals such as cats and dogs. If humans are just evolved animals, why not terminate an unwanted pregnancy? Isn't it the mother's right? Shoulnd't she have a choice in the matter? After all, the fetus ....is of lesser value than an adult. During the fetus' first three months, it's just a blog of tissue that's not any more important than a little pig or rabbit. Why shouldn't a fetus be terminated if adults or society would benefit? After all, we have a population problem. We must guide our destiny." "

Most "Progressives", as modern liberals are preferring to be called, are enamored of Eugenics; Margaret Sanger, the Mother of Planned Parenthood, for example, was a huge proponent of Darwin's theories, and especially in applying them to the races of humanity. She was not exactly a fan of racial tolerance, either; we'll leave it at that. 

 

 

Reply #20 Top

Actually, Leauki, it's your own understanding of Darwin's theory that is wanting.

End of quote

No, Lula. It is in fact you who have such little understanding of evolution that you are even unable to tell if anybody else has an understanding of Darwin's theory at all.

 

Yet, the definition of "Evolution" as per the World Book Dictionary and 3 science text books is indeed the very same concept of Darwin's Theory.

End of quote

Non sequitur. I never said that Darwin's theory is not the same as evolution. (In fact I find it odd that you would bring this up. Seems to me like you totally ignore what is written and just hammer in whatever you can quote somewhere containing some of the same words used in a given discussion.)

What you are not getting is that neither evolution nor Darwin's theory (which are the same) promote the idea that species can turn into each other.

That's why you are quoting text describing evolution. It's because you have (still) no idea that it simply isn't what you think it is.

Let's look at this statement:

The main conclusion arrived at this work, namely that man is descended from some lowly organized form, will I regret to think, be highly distasteful to many.

End of quote

The way you understand it is that at some point an ape (for example) turned into a human.

Well, that is wrong and Darwin never said anything like that.

The part you don't understand is that there was never ever, according to Darwin's theory, a point at which one species became another.

1. In Darwin's theory the child of an animal is _always_ (but absolutely always and all the time and never not) the same species as its parent. Always. Always. Always. Get it?

2. However, the descendants of one animal, while always having been the same species as their own parents, are not necessarily the same species as other descendants of that same animal.

What you don't get (and that is obvious from everything you write about the subject) is that that statement 2 does not negate statement 1.

If you have a parent generation A(1) and two children B(2) and C(2) and their descendants B(...) and C(...) (with ... being some gigantic number representing lots and lots of generations in between), then the following holds true:

1. A(1) and B(2) and C(2) are the same species.

2. B(2) and its child B(3) are the same species.

3. C(2) and its child C(3) are the same species.

4. B(n) and its child B(n+1) are the same species.

5. C(n) and its child C(n+1) are the same species.

6. B(n) and C(n) for sufficiently large n are not necessarily the same species.

7. B(n) and C(n) for sufficiently large n can be totally different animals from A(1).

8. Yet at no point was a child ever a different species than its parent.

So while we (might) end up with two different species after many generations, just like Darwin said, one species never (ever at all) turned into another species.

I know that you won't understand this (in fact I think you will simply ignore it and pretend you were never told the next time it comes up), but maybe  others will. It's not that difficult.

 

 

Reply #21 Top

From Dr. Walt Brown on the social consequences of Darwin's Evolution...

End of quote

Actually, it's about the social consequences of KNOWING about Darwin's evolution. Evolution happens whether we know about it or not, just like gravity. And evolution happens whether we teach it or not, just like gravity.

We cannot, by refusing to teach evolution, change the world into one that doesn't include evolution.

If that were possible we could all learn how to fly by not learning about gravity.

Gravity doesn't say that rocks SHOULD drop when we drop them. Gravity says that rocks WILL drop when we drop them. Gravity doesn't care about the morality of dropping rocks on people. And a human being who refuses to drop rocks on other human beings is not thereby denying the truth of the theory of gravity and nor is he a hypocrite for stopping a rock from dropping on others.

 

Reply #22 Top

LEAUKI POSTS:

What you are not getting is that neither evolution nor Darwin's theory (which are the same) promote the idea that species can turn into each other.

That's why you are quoting text describing evolution. It's because you have (still) no idea that it simply isn't what you think it is.
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We agree that "evolution" and "Darwin's Theory" are the same.

You write that Evolution is not about and has nothing to do with One species turning into another.

Yet, your assertion has been soundly refuted by science textbooks, by dictionary definition and from Darwin's own writings.

Science textbooks define "Evolution" as used in the scientific field to designate a natural, biological process through which some speck of inorganic matter after eons of time, transmuted into a simple celled organism, then from that into a more complex organism, from which passing from one species to another, all plant, animal and human life came about. They claim the process or mechanism for Darwin's evolution was by "Natural Selection" and "Survival of the Fittest".

From the Thorndike/Barnhart World Book Dictionary, A-K, Vol. 23 page 737, the definition of "Evolution" is....

n. 1. any process of formation or growth; gradual development. 2 something evolved; product of development; not a sudden discovery or creation. 3 the theory that all living things developed from a few simple forms of life through a series of physical changes. According to evolution, the first mammal developed from a type of reptile, and ultimately all forms are traced back to a simple single-celled organism. ........9 Philosophy....the theory that a process or progressive change, with the development of more complex entities, characterizes all force and matter in the universe. Evolution is advance from the simple to the complex.

Note the highlighted part. It says ....."according to evolution the first mammal developed from a type of a reptile"..

 

Aren't reptiles a species? Aren't mammals completely different species? Yes is the correct answer to both questions. So the world-wide accepted dictionary definition states quite a remarkable evolutionary sequence ...that the first mammal developed from a reptile. This is a direct refutation of your assertion that Evolution is not about and has nothing to do with One species turning into another.

LEAUKI POSTS:

Darwin's theory is indisputable scientific fact. It is right that they should teach it as such.
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And I say,

Darwin's Theory is a lie based upon pseudo science masqueraded as fact to our children in schools. Natural systems degenerate from order toward disorder called entropy and Darwin's Theory of Evolution requres faith in the opposite.

 

Reply #23 Top

You know Leauki, you should also start adding to your list how evolution and eugenics are different, considering people want to claim that eugenics are Darwinian.

 

Reply #24 Top

The way you understand it is that at some point an ape (for example) turned into a human.

Well, that is wrong and Darwin never said anything like that.
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Why the denial Leauki? From his book "The Descent of Man" 2nd ed. Collier and Son. 1905 Darwin wrote exactly that.  He wrote that mankind is an offshoot from what he called Old World Simiadaen monkeys...that man descended from some ape-like creature, a progenitors who were once covered with hair, both sexes had beards, with pointed ears, a tail, etc.

"In forming a judgment on this head with reference to man, we must glance at the classification of the Simiadae. This family is divided by almost all naturalists into the Catarrhine group, or Old World monkeys....and into the Platyrhine group or New World monkeys. .....Now, man unquestionably belongs in his dentitiion, in the structure of his nostrils, and some other respects, to the Catarrhine or Old World division.

.....There can, consequently, hardly  be a doubt that man is an offshoot from the Old World Simian stem; and that, under a genealogical point of view, he must be classified with the Catarrhine division. Vol.1, pg. 205.

"The early progenitors of man must have been once covered with hair, both sexes having beards; their ears were probably pointed and capable of movement; and their bodies were provided with a tail, having the proper muscles....The foot was then prehensile, judging from the great toe in the foetus; and our progeniters no doubt, were arboreal  in their habits, and frequented some warm forest-clad land." pg. 214.

"The Simiadae then branched off into two great stems, the New World and the Old World monkeys; and from the latter, at a remote period, Man, the wonder and glory of the universe proceeded." pg. 220.

 "Man, as I have attempted to show, is certainly descended from some ape-like creature." pg. 759.

"The main conclusion arrived at this work, namely that man is descended from some lowly organized form, will I regret to think, be highly distasteful to many. ...For my own part, I would as soon be descended from that heroic little monkey who braved his dreaded enemy in order to save the life of his keeper, or from that old baboon, who descending from the mountains, carried away in triumpth his young comrade from a crowd of astonished dogs----as from a savage who delights to torture his enemies, offers up bloody sacrifices...." pg. 796.

 

Reply #25 Top

If you have a parent generation A(1) and two children B(2) and C(2) and their descendants B(...) and C(...) (with ... being some gigantic number representing lots and lots of generations in between), then the following holds true:

1. A(1) and B(2) and C(2) are the same species.

2. B(2) and its child B(3) are the same species.

3. C(2) and its child C(3) are the same species.

4. B(n) and its child B(n+1) are the same species.

5. C(n) and its child C(n+1) are the same species.

6. B(n) and C(n) for sufficiently large n are not necessarily the same species.

7. B(n) and C(n) for sufficiently large n can be totally different animals from A(1).
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So, if as you claim that evolution is true, then there ought to be lots and lots of actual examples with plenty of fossils, or other empirical scientific evidence you can cite. So, carry this "evolutionary sequence" through using an actual animal species (of your choice)...show how step 1 that A1, B2 and C2 are the same species and by the time steps 6 and 7 come along ....a totally different animal, not the same species from A1.