Seen as I play mostly PUGs, I have to say from personal preference and experience Ooze is a better all round build.

Simply the lack of need of mana items is a huge advantage. As far as DG Killer goes, kills tend to be slow at the beginning, but ramp up as the game progresses.

Spit is certainly useful, but overall I would feel confident that any Spit or Hybrid build will lose to the Ooze build.

I wouldn't say that Ooze is necessarily just for tanking, in the games I have played never has a Spit Build racked up as many kills.

Once an ooze is in close, then the DG will rarely be able to run away due to grasp, Wand of Speed and diseased claws. Certainly at the beginning to mid game, you may lose out on some perceived kills as the players can get away. However, making them run is enough for me.

Still people will never agree on which build is better, so let them go Hybrid or Spit, I look forward to dishing out damage.

The only problem I have with this, is that you can upgrade your armour along the way, only at 20% loss. Saving up 13K IMO (for girdle, which is the first artifact worthwhile) is a waste of time, there are plenty of great Ooze items like Platemail or Groffling, Slayers Wraps even Godplate, which are worth investing in until you can purchase other items. You can sell them to get the artifacts/citadel upgrades when you need them.

If I get forced to the crystal, then I will upgrade my items if I have the cash. Being forced back is an indication I am not strong enough. The only time I don't bother upgrading, is when you are winning so badly there is no point, as you don't need to go back to the crystal.

To answer the OP's question:  both

And I wouldn't call it a "hybrid" build either.  I think it's more "the original" build.  A hybrid to me is something a Torch Bearer would do with form juggling, while each individual side is completely viable on its own.

Anyway, here's my build:

-max out the first 4 rows,

-put a point into the 7th

-and the last two points are for you do to whatever you want. 

If the game goes on for that long, enjoy the ride.

All the gear one needs to play effectively can be bought for 5750 gold.  The three additional items you'd eventually want to acquire bring that total up to 15000 even, but it's not like those items are necessary to win.  The rest of your money can go into the citadel to win the citadel upgrade award at the end for more favor -or- you can buy some silly artifacts.  If your playing smart and coordinated, you will be able to do buy both.

Cheers! (and never die. ever.)

You need 6k just to get the basic gear for an Ooze UB, not counting health pots, wand of speed, TP scrolls, or flag locks. I'm curious how you can run a hybrid, which also requires mana, for less money than that.

Umm my general statistics are better, your 57-14 means so little....

and "reported for trolling" this makes me laugh.

As I mentioned, I wouldn't classify what I play as a "hybrid" build so the details of the "official hybrid build" escape me.  However, the way I run is fairly straight forward and utilizes your typical in-game strategies.  Maybe a bit of the confusion comes from the overall goal of what your gear is to do for you.  You mentioned the "basic gear for an Ooze UB" and I'm not sure what this means.  Why do you need all of that?  What does it achieve?  Does that essentially mean that you never have to return back to the crystal for health (as I assume the ooze builds buy gear with hp/hp regen/armor focuses only, to negate the drain on life from ooze)?

You see, my 5750 gear doesn't mean I don't ever run out of health or mana and that's really just not a big deal.  It's apart of the game and doesn't provide any weakness anyway.  That's what the crystal is there for.  My gear simply means that I have everything I need to kill an enemy demigod effectively, with the use of basic strategy and team work.  If I don't have the upper hand and I know I'm not going win, I'll know before I'm down to half health and so I simply run away.  Is this something the "Ooze Build" doesn't have to worry about? 

Wait, I just had a revelation - is the point of this discussion to see who comes out on top when the two are set in an arena and told to fight until one dies?  Well sure, who ever stacked health and armor items will always win.  That's a given though and not really practical to "real world" experiences playing the game.

(rereading my own post, I sound a bit like a rambling man.  you'll have to try your best to forgive me.  it's been a scattered kind of day... )

Ooze and Spit builds are both effective, it just depends on the situation. For example, against TB I would probably run Spit, as he doesn't do much autoattacking and it gives me some ranged leverage. Against Sedna, I'd much prefer Ooze, as I know she'll be closing the gap between us and dealing large sums of damage through autoattacks.

the basic Ooze health item package is this:

Banded Armor

Scalemail

Unbreakable Boots

Nimoth Chestguard

Hauberk of Life

those 5 are the first you'll generally buy and they fill up your 5 slots. it costs 5700 gold. you'll probably sell off the Banded Armor for Narmoth's Ring when you can afford it. you may also sell off Scalemail and replace it with Platemail of the Crusader or Groffling Warplate or maybe even Godplate. 

the idea is that you use very little mana and regenerate health VERY fast when your ooze is off. you NEVER make a crystal run. one of the big advantages is the staying power. again, the goal wasn't to easily achieve quick kills on enemy DG's. the goal is to force them out of the lane every time. they'll die if they stick around too long or if you get a team-kill. team-kills are better anyway, assists produce maximum gold for your team. the amount of lane pressure you can put on with a build that NEVER goes to the crystal can turn the tide of many games. 

again, this is a discussion of roles. a team needs a strong killer as well. a hybrid beast is a killer and if thats what the team needs that what you should play. but if you've got a Reg or an Erebus or something like that you might be better off letting them go for the killer role while you play anchor as your Tank geared Ooze Beast. 

and once again i'll bring up that the whole point is moot if you're playing at low skill levels where you only ever worry about 1on1s. if thats your game you just play Hybrid, period. its the best for dueling 1on1. 

You high? You may have twice as many wins as me, but you have nearly 4 times as many losses. Your win percentage is 64.6%, mine is 75.3%. When you consider the fact that I haven't played for a week...

 Anyway, here's my usual ooze build by level 10-12

Starting Items: Gauntlets of Brutality, Banded Armor, Blood of the Fallen(favor)

As the game goes on:

Hauberk of Life

Slayer's Wraps

Platemail of the Crusader/Narmoth's Ring

Level 10 with Narmoth(not counting passives):

Health: 5315 ( 6937.138 Modified Armored Health )

Mana: 2028

Armor: 763 (23.4% Weapon Damage Mitigation)

Evasion: 0%

Movement Speed: 6.3

Rate of Fire: 0.8694
Damage: 268 - 296 (281.5)

Attack Time: 1.15 (+17%)

Damage Per Second: 245

Health Per Second: 53.99(8% life steal)

Mana Per Second: 6.29

 Level 10 with Platemail(not including passives):

Health: 4565 ( 6140.838 Modified Armored Health )

Mana: 2028

Armor: 863 (25.7% Weapon Damage Mitigation)

Evasion: 0%

Movement Speed: 6.3

Rate of Fire: 0.8694

Damage268 - 296: (281.5)

Attack Time: 1.15 (+17%)

Damage Per Second: 245

Health Per Second: 53.99

Mana Per Second: 6.29

 By comparing my build with transitive's "usual" ooze build I can see that I have more HPS and a higher damage output, but less armor and health. So, any thoughts on this?

Exactly; once you get the first five items, you have great HP/s, enough to heal a lot of damage without Ooze on (A better figure for cash might be 10k, because once you get Narmoth's you essentially never need to go to the crystal because you can turn off Ooze and heal 3k HP in a minute anyway). So at 6k you are essentially unpushable but might have to go to the crystal after maybe three individual fights where you pushed away the enemy (excluding fights you were forced to run from), and at 10k you will never need to leave your lane unless the enemy DGs are cooperating to push you specifically.

Lets not make UB look so good, or the nerf bat will come

 By comparing my build with transitive's "usual" ooze build I can see that I have more HPS and a higher damage output, but less armor and health. So, any thoughts on this?[/quote]

My thought: You spent more money than the usual build transitive posted, so your stats are worthless.

Actually I spent about 10550 gold with the above. According to him he spent 10510 so unless 40 gold is a big difference.....

EDIT: Redoing the math, I actually only spent 10500 gold max if I went for Platemail. If I went for Narmoth instead I'd spend 10000. So I spent less than him either way.

he didn't spend more than my overall final build, he just spent more than 5700 gold (which is how much the first 5 items cost).

the reason i selected the items that i did has to do with the synergistic interaction between health and armor. each point of armor makes each point of health a "bigger" one. there's kind of a sweet spot for maximum effective health and the build i provided is very close to that sweet spot. i've tinkered around a bit to try and optimize and thats the best i've come up with so far within reasonable gold cost constraints. 

personally i favor maximizing effective health because its more in line with what the build is trying to do, which is just outlast every fight. you'll either win or push them out, thats the objective. once you clear about 5000 max health you're sufficiently resistant to burst damage salvos that i start to look for the best effective health gains possible so you'll see me sticking with weird cheapo stuff like Scalemail for a long time for this reason. 

however, its probably also viable to sacrifice max health (ditch Hauberk of Life basically, since its the worst item in the build, efficiency wise) and focus more on offense. for that purpose i'd go for Slayer's Wraps for sure. 

i generally avoid Platemail of the Crusader except as an upgrade to Scalemail when you're trying to find a use for surplus gold. its a pretty good item but it has a high price point and i can think of at least 6 items i'd rather take first. so for me its a lategame upgrade/swap-out kinda thing, not an item to shoot for getting earlier. 

To be honest I used to play a spit build with an insane amount of damage. Even now that I switched over I'm still a bit of a whore for kills, so I have trouble letting go of offensive power.

 

Agreed, I only get Platemail instead of Narmoth when I have a significant lead over my opponents. The extra armor lets me take down towers and recieve almost no damage, allowing me to end the game earlier. Otherwise I'll get Narmoth and save up for mageslayer/giants.

Just like there's a sweetspot between HP and Armor, there's a sweetspot between Defense and Offense. The equation is 3D between damage output, armor, and health.

wrong

I've played a hybrid build and ooze and spit builds respectively.

The trick is taking the skills at the right time. The problem with ooze is that it really start to shine on lvl7-higher, below that a spit build is vastly superior. The problem I see many oozers do is getting lots of passives and atrributes, while spit does massively more dmg and massively more usefull(I do advocate getting some passives though, hold your horses).

The spit obviously lacks late-game.

get spit first its always good.

Second lvl can be inner beast or deseased claws whatever you like, three is a safe. 5 you take both post mortem and foul grasp, since their awesome skills. now take spit and ooze, with spit going first. You're item choices should be stacking massive hp, one mana helmet(vlemiisch) and unbreakable boots should help you through mana problems, remeber mana potion though you'll need them.  

Reading over the whole of these posts, i can come to a small conclusion. This is purely opiniative, and from my own observations reading, and playing all 3 builds.

Spit Beast: Very strong early game, and especially strong in pug games where the enemy team does not have good DG composition, or good communication to counter spit. Without an oak or sedna, it is very difficult to mitigate the damage from spit. And here is where spit shines. (Doh! bad pun). Early game, 1 v 1, basic matches. Gives you good chances of coming out on top in battles.

Hybrid Beast: Very well rounded, although not very strong in any one regard. It is strong early game, and strong mid game, but loses its power late game from a lack of focus. This build seems to fare better than the spit beast in more situations, although the lack of health and depedance on mana to complete the dps makes it an easier target for spikers and for towers.

Ooze Beast: This beast had no staying power in the beggining, and is really limited until about level 4 or 5 when foul grasp comes in. 1 v 1, ooze beast will get beast early game by pretty much anyone, as you do not have the items, or the natural stats to endure your own ooze. However, if you are in larger, team games, not pugs, ooze beast becomes more viable quicker. With coordinated heals and shields, your whole teams gains a strong anchor and a very durable ally. Late game, ooze beast deals incredible dps, although there are severe weaknesses to killing towers and dealing with tower rook.

It would seem that each build is viable in any number of situations. And this is key. You cannot argue which skill is purely better, otherwise it would seem something is inherently wrong with the game itself. It you had a skill that was good all the time, then what good would it be to even have the other skill period? None, it would be broken.

Each skill is effective in different conditions, so it cannot be expected to win the argument of which is better. Spit seems better early on, while Ooze does well later into game. Hybrids do better in more situations, but lose the ability to anchor from high level ooze earlier, and the ability to spike damage earlier from venom.

Just remember, just because you can kill demigods better, doesnt mean you will be more inclined to win the game. In high level games, there are frequently 0 kills until teh endgame. Its nto because no one is good enough to kill someone, its just that the caliber of play is so high that very few people take risks, or make mistakes. And there are always trade offs. This is easiest to see in ooze versus vemon. Venom gives you damage, but takes away health items for mana. Ooze gives you anchoring, but you lose your early game advantage.

its all about the tradeoffs. Not everything is good all the time.

Entirely wrong. So incredibly wrong it's amazing. Hybrid builds are strongest lategame; at that point, the passives they skipped out on don't really matter because one team or other is pushing the citadel and their natural levels have smoothed out the mana/health regen issues of a hybrid. At early levels, the hybrid build is terribad, running Spit with Ooze just burning HP and being minimally useful, and at midgame it starts to improve when both skills become actually useful. Focus matters early game, before you have enough skillpoints to max everything. A hybrid build at lategame (level 10+) has enough points to have both spit and ooze maxed, so it is no less "focused" than either build.

I still don't like playing a hybrid build, but to say they are weak lategame is just terribly inaccurate.

i agree (again) with Milskidasith. late game the hybrid-build is the strongest.

but the problem is to get so far. the passive skills are at early and midgame far too important. they seem minor but it you benefit more from them because you cannot really build spit + ooze together + foul grasp and have enough mana for the active skills until late game.

and if you dominate in early and midgame you allready have the advantage you need.

I really don't agree that you cannot do these things. In fact, I'd say the main reason that I do as well as I do with hybrid, is because I can consistently spit/ooze/grasp... (spooz? Yeah, I like that).  Spoozing people is amazingly strong, as it maximizes the damage you can do while minimizing their ability to retaliate.

I will concede however that this is doable mainly because I use Blade of the Serpent, which has obvious downsides compared to the Blood of the Fallen that I'm sure the Ooze build uses. However, I think the differences almost always end up in my favor: Spit at level 2 does enough damage to counter Blood vs not Blood. +25 base damage helps a lot too.

The only point that I think the pure ooze build can say it is stronger is in levels 1 to 3, because of the 800 hit points.  However, it is also the point where hit and run spit also works the best, so I'm not sld there either.

Last note, I am constantly surprised how effective spoozing people is.  I had a game recently where I had 1200 hit points left, and spoozed a shieldless oak with 3000, and easily defeated him. By the time the grasp was over, he had 1500, and I still had 1000.

Without passives, you won't be killing anybody smart enough to run away.

With a serpent blade there are no needs for a mana helmet on the hybrid build. Thus you can completely stack HP items like the pure ooze build. You can even skip unbreakable boots and maybe get bloodstone ring. If you spit once and activate blade the spit will pay for itself in mana/damage even at lvl 2. Mid/late game you can buy the Magus Rod which makes spit/grasp combo very cheap, and the 5 second window is easy for even spit/grasp/wrath combo. Combined with Serpent Blade it's pretty much unlimited mana, and you have not used ANY passive slots other than skipping Blood of the Fallen for favor.

The only HP you sacrifice is the 800HP if you were to get Blood of the Fallen for favor. With the massive damage output you get from this build it's much more likely you will score more kills early than an Ooze build, thus giving you more gold to get more items to make up the 800 HP difference. in nearly all games I've played with this setup I end up having more HP than anyone else in the game at all times, with the exception in early lvls that someone else took BotF.

I actually end up with more kills from spit than passives (comparing a pure ooze build to a spit/ooze build).  The combination of the extra DPS and range more than makes up for them, kill-potential-wise.  You sacrifice some tanking potential, of course.