Ensuring There Is A Steamroller Effect And Doing It Well

I don't think an endgame stratagy is a bad thing as long as it is 'endgame'.  Super powered armageddon spells and ultimate god-like heroes are common through fantasy literature and games, so why not here?  As long as someone can't 'win on turn two' in multiplayer, than a well thought out and executed stratagy SHOULD eventually snowball your opponents if they havn't done anything to counter you.  That said, I think there should also be many different endgame stratagies to choose from, be it controll a dragon, make a super hero, or cast a super spell, that will give as good as they get, so if two opponents can build up without countering eachother, well, theres a truely epic strugle to be had....

Yeah, the point is, once you've played the game enough, you can usually tell who is going to win the game very early on (or at least whether or not you will be said victor). And what Vordrak is saying (and most of the members of these forums agree based on previous discussions) is that it should be impossible to say who is going to win a game until the game is almost over. That means that your first few choices in the game can't be the overwhelmingly biggest factor in the outcome (which they usually are), and it means that just because you're the biggest and strongest midway through the game you still can't count on winning. I think Elemental is on the right track on making this happen with mechanics like essence, master quests, insanely powerful individual characters (player or otherwise) and intentionally debalancing world-wrecking spells.

Also, this is just as important in singleplayer mode as in multiplayer modes. Yeah in multiplayer modes the snowball effect usually leads to the losing players leaving, but in singleplayer it's not much worse. You get 30 turns in and realize "ok, well I've won but I still need to play another 100 turns to see the victory screen." Ideally, by the time you can say "ok, I've won," the victory screen should be right around the corner.

I think that the problem comes when people try to eliminate the snowball effect entirely, but do it wrong. They underpower things and add in diminishing returns, and while there is still a snowball effect, the fun of stomping on everybody and going way overkill is gone.

I agree totally with you guys. There should be many *different and diverse* overpowered snowball strategies.

In MoM I can add another - an army of Paladins. For some reason Paladins in that game were way, way overpowered. If you built them in a city with adamantium and levelled them it was game over. They were immune to almost everything.

Another, not quite game winning power but cool nonetheless was Chaos Channels. I would use it on a boat and get a living, flying boat with wings. Or there was the army of phantasms with loads of buff spells on.

These options just need to take time, and be choices with opportunity costs. If you are maintaining the spell 'Mega Doom to the Other Players' you should find yourself short on resources for crafting artefacts for that overpowered hero. If you have summoned a 'Doom Elemental' you should again be short on spare mana due to maintenance costs. And so on.

Crafting really obscenely powerful artefacts like Stormbringer should be possible but cost essence.

You know, you may be on to something here. My thread on the prevention of steamrolling was born, I now see, as a reaction to the most common and banal form of steamrolling 4X games are prone to; the military conquest feedback loop. That's kinda boring for reasons I spoke about many times in that thread. On the other hand, the kind of effect you're talking about - decisive advantages gained through endgame means and ones with variability - may actually be quite a nice idea. And if there are many kinds of alternatives, that neatly eliminates the core contention I personally have with steamrolling in the first place; namely, its emphasis on One True Path To Victory. But if the endgame snowball effect come in a variety of forms, that's a very pleasant-sounding design goal.

I think I approve of this idea.

....that will be pretty cool.

Player A is starting to reach a military steamroller position, but Player B is reaching a diplomatic/economic steamroller position, while Player C is reaching a spell casting steamroller position.

How does that end?

...probably ends with Player A starting to pull ahead with military power, only for the diplomatic Player B (and his AI cadre/puppets) joining forces with Player C = massive showdown!

Although it might be more fun with two military or spell superpowers going head to head. Lots of giant armies and nuke wars and that sort of thing.

And then player D finishes the quest VC and says OMG u guys r so NOOB lulz!

I must have been a loser hero user, because I don't think I ever had a hero that could take out 9 great drakes  (for sure 4, but 9 is tough by himself)

The armagedon spell however, I used all the time.   (don't forget that the resulting volcanoes also destroyed the land upon which they appear.  so not only do you start gaining redonkulous amounts of mana, but you also destroy the resources that might fund others military.)

I'm under the firm impression that these things will be in Elemental.  (frogboy has talked about powerful heroes and "unbalanced" late game spells)

Heroes with their magic bolt strike pumped up were able to take out the great drakes.  Second best guys were the ones who would throw their axe just before combat (if you gave them a massive melee attack = 1 dead great drake without the chance to strike back).

Yeah, you could take the time to make some amazing artifacts for your heroes....although in a multiplayer game, trying to do that would = death!