I did not know about the 3:1 and 10:1 breakpoints.  Good info.  Thanks!

In hindsight, I bet I had not quite reached 3:1 quickly enough, or something.  I had 2 cargos with 15 attack (pre attack and ship bonuses) and a normal defender there and had another cargo under construction.

Trying to avoid one or two specific AIs is something I had not considered.  The easiest way to do that has generally been for me to BE that AI.  In MOO2, for example, I always chose the race with the mind control trait so that i rarely had to defend against it.  (In some Impossible games, one or more AIs would sometimes get it as a bonus/handicap trait anyway.)

I started with DL, then tried DA, and liked DA better, especially after the last patch.  The spy change seems better to me.  I slowly build up spies, assigning them passively as to get enough intel level to be able to generally see where the AI ship/fleet destinations are.  Once I achieve that level on all AI Majors, I am ready for the spy assault.  One trick that has worked up to Crippling, is to deploy them all on one AI at a time for precisely one turn each, all on just farms, with the intent to depopulate them to gut their tax bases and reduce Influence.  That is, I think the population drops instantly to the planet base level if the spy stays for a full turn on all farms.

It does, and for an economic attack it is pretty good. If you are using spies to help invade, you have much better returns using them against morale structures and then using Information Warfare. Most planets will fall to one 1b transport, and usually have more population left than the transport carried.

Yeah that's not enough. I usually go up the beam path and go evil to get psionic beams and then along with a decent amount of miniaturization can manage 10 psionic beams per cargo hull for an attack value of 120. Add in a little military bonus plus the 25% bonus for being in orbit along with having ten of these results in a military rating of around 7500.

Yep, it does.

Willy -

I do target morale structures before I invade.  I just have to remember to get the spies out of the AI's box before I invade the last planet.  I've forgotten that and lost spies when I invaded the DreadLords before. 

 

Mumblefratz -

It was too early for me to be that far up the weapons path.  And, yes, it may have been those side-tracks you advised against.  That is, if I'd managed to get to SCC sooner and then traded part way up the weaons path and researched the rest.  Still, have to get to Evil before the psionic beams, and aren't they expensive?  I'd need probably manufacturing centers to build such attack value ships before the heat death of the galaxy ....

I'll keep at it, and try a bit different, more focused run to the SCC next game.

Certainly side tracks aren't helpful, but it's also likely that you simply do not have enough research capacity.

For example I can have Impulse II, Total Majesty, Alliances, Psionic Beams, Concepts of Malice, Expert Miniaturization and Trade by July of the 1st game year (i.e. reported year 0).

If I stretch this out to October (still in year 0) I can add HyperWarp, Sensors IV (for Eyes of the Universe), Planetary Invasion, and the 50% level on all 5 extreme colonization techs.

These are all techs that I research myself with only 3 planets and with only the initial Colony building on each of my two colonies. This is the research power of Altarian Technologist at the suicidal level. But like I've said the trick is in funding all this research.

Finally who said anything about build? I built nothing, essentially leasing everything long term and can easily put up ten cargo hulls with 10 psionic beams on each of them around my SCC in a single turn in July or October as the case may be.

I really don't think you've been quite able to comprehend the scale of what I'm talking about. Hopefully this gives you some idea.

You're right.  I do not comprehend.  I have yet to lease anything long term, figuring it to be a  maintenance cost trap that would shortly strangel me.

I think I will pause/abandon my current game and try something more like what you said.  If nothing else, it will give me some experience so that I can continue this dialogue.

So, let me see. 

1) Control-N over and over to get a 700% research tile.

2) Altairian, max Research and, I suppose, economics, but focus on choosing research trait and party bonuses. 

3) Use the original Colony ship to grab one near planet of some value but build nothing on it.  Let the miner do the fields at my home planet and then convert (lease) to a colonizer and colonize a third planet, but build nothing there either.

4) On Home planet, buy long term lease research buildings, though a different juicy bonus tile can be used appropriately.  Sliders to max research.

5) Research ... what?  Research improvements?  I generally do planetary improvements then sensors to get the survey ships going, generally I have ion engines from the start, but not always.

6) In one order or another, charge down the diplomacy track towards the SCC, head for Evil and psionic beams, get a couple layers of miniaturization, and use probably the homeworld as the SCC site.  Get trade for eco capitol and, I guess, eventually Denocracy for the Political one.

7) Milk Minors as necessary for cash, waiting as long as possible so as to have the better Diplomatic advantage.

8) Build cargo weapons carriers for SCC to fend off hostile AIs.

9) Now choose which path to take to victory.

Am I close?

You are indeed pretty close but I would be surprised if you could pull it off given the limited amount of detail that I've provided.

Use ARC to select Korx II as your homeworld and you get a PQ10 primary and 2 PQ8 secondaries. Immediately upgrade your miner to a colony ship and colonize both secondaries. Asteroids are yet another useless "improvement" over DL. If you don't know what ARC is see https://forums.galciv2.com/172405.

The research path is Xeno Research then Advanced Computing (and get Basic Miniaturization same turn) to get your Tech Cap and then long term lease it. Get Planetary Improvements and Xeno Economics in one turn. Go from New Propulsion Techniques to Impulse Drive II in one turn.

Research Sensors (and get Sensors II for trade fodder the same turn). Now you have the makings of a decent survey ship. Rush buy a few cargo hulls and upgrade on a long term lease to survey ships.

Then you can get Universal Translator to Alliances in a single turn then a few turns on the Diplomacy branch, another few turns getting to Concepts of Malice (for the MCC and it's 100% econ bonus). Then up the beam branch to psionic beams.

But like I've been saying this is the *easy* part. The hard part is paying for it. Even if you figure out how to pay for it on a temporary basis this path is a certain downward spiral towards bankruptcy and how one transitions from this to the point of solvency is even more tricky and is something that I'm not at liberty to discuss in the clear.

Sorry to tease so but I suspect that joining an empire of sophisticated players is your only real chance of completely figuring this out. There is far more that follows that I've left unsaid. However even with only partial information you can take the same path albeit much slower to get to SCC to simply protect yourself from the AI to win the game in a few years in the mundane manner. You definitely do need to know how to win in the mundane manner however there are far more elegant paths to victory other than having to invade every planet in the galaxy.

As it is I've probably said too much here but also like I said there are few real secrets and I doubt I'm telling anyone that's been around for awhile anything that they don't already know.

I really want to win the stock game on Suicidal, but am willing to Control-N, because it is essentially resigning in each iteration that I chose not to play.

I'll see what I learn with what you've provided.  No matter what, it should be interesting and I thank you!

Ok - a trio of comments on my first efforts.

1) I cannot get a 700% tile either for precurosor library for research or the one for manufacturing.  I must have tried 50 times and saw not one of either type.

2) Went with a 300% and 100% tile fore research.  I see what you mean on research numbers.  By the fifth turn, I think I was over 400 points.

3) I see what you mean about paying for it.  I built just 3 research buildings, the tech capitol, and one morale building (there was a morale bonus tile on the homeworld), and I built/bought not one ship, and was approaching bankruptcy astoundingly fast.

I will have to cogitate on this.  It's a pain that the tech capitol does not increase focus research.  Hmmmm.  Maybe I need to go Labs for the first 3 turns and then shift All Factories with those first techs under the belt.  Hmmmm.

No doubt. Also a lot of trial and error.

You can play essentially the same style but simply leave out the tech cap. That kind of defeats the purpose of getting things done quickly but it make the economics much easier to handle and avoids the whole bankrupty problem.

I've played this kind of game many times and you do tend to gravitate to an old fashioned mixed mode of play where you go through phases of intense research but where you periodically take turns off from research to do some production. Actually producing your ships and some of the wonders that you need significantly lengthens the process but the idea is still the same. You're focused on essential techs to achieve a specific purpose. As you've seen how long the process takes can have a definite impact on whether it works or not but you can probably take a year and a half to get to the SCC and you'll still be OK as long as you're playing in a large enough galaxy.

One point is that the maximum length of time you have is essentially the time it takes the AI's to get close to completeing the colonization of the galaxy so if you need more time then you need make sure you're playing in the largest galaxy (gigantic).

You should be able to get a precursor something without *too* many ctrl-n's. If you're going for the compromise of trying to partially incorporate some of the things that I've mentioned you can look for a home planet with a 300% research tile *and* a 300% manufacturing tile. That can work very nicely as you go back and forth between research mode and production mode, plus the 300% tile is far easier to support financially but it does get you used to the idea.

I saved several decent homeworlds in the 50+ Control-N's.  I never saw a 7X tile, as I said, but I may have seen (and saved) one with a 3X research and a 3X maunfacturing tile.  I also saved one with two 3X manufacturing tiles.

Trial and error, yes.  But that should be fun.

Do the Altairian research bonuses you mentioned apply also to research generated by focus?

IIRC, the research bonuses generally do apply to focus research, with the exception that the Tech Capitol does not increase focus research.  Can you tell me if I am recalling correctly?

Probably not, but given that I'm All Labs pretty much all the time it's not something that I'd notice.

This is definitely my understanding as well.

As far as the bonus tiles they do vary with the other settings that you have and usually seem proportional to galaxy size. I'm not familiar with any size other than gigantic and I always use abundant planets, abundant habitable planets and abundant stars and with these settings you usually don't have to wait too long for a planet with the equivilent of a precursor library/mine. Note that two 300% tiles are the same as one 700% tile and so is one 300% and two 100% tiles. Of course you do have to pay for a few more buildings and take up more space on your planet but all of these in effect give you the equivilent of 8 normal buildings.

I do know you can end up getting planets with a ridiculous number of bonus tiles if you restrict the number of planets/habitables/stars since the total number of bonus tiles appear to stay constant for any particular galaxy size. What I don’t know is if the bonus tile density is truly constant over galaxy size or whether some galaxy sizes might have a disproportionate number of bonus tiles.

But as far as I know the settings I use should most likely result in the lowest bonus tile density possible and out of 50 ctrl-n’s I would expect an average of 3 or 4 precursor 700% tiles and at least as many double  combinations of 300% tiles. Whether they are the *right* precursor or combination that you’re looking for is a different matter. Murphy always seems to be against you when it comes to things like this.

Murphy, yes!

I play on precisely the galaxy type you mentioned.  That is, gigantic and scattered and abundant everything.  I do not think that DA has the "habitable" control, just the planet quantity, as a selection.  Based on posts I have seen here, I think that must be a choice in TA.  I did a fresh 25 Control-N's Saturday, and again, no 7X tiles.

Since I have been playing All Factories for so long, I'm trying to hybrid something first.  That is, Altairians and almost all research for about 10 turns or so to get that first tranche of bonuses and techs, then shifting to All Factories, with the bonus from Altairians still helping in focus research.

It's a deep game that allows such choices, though it has taken spotting the AIs such huge bonuses to make it so.  I'm enjoying it, so it's quite okay!

Got my first 7x Research tile on a homeworld - after another 50+ Control-Ns.

Immediately saved the starting position.  Now, "Tally, Ho!". 

Good luck. 

I wouldn't doubt that you could find 100 different but very interesting ways to play that game out to it's conclusion.

Actually I once got *two* precusor libraries on my homeworld and *two* precursor mines on my secondary. It may have been the other way around, not that it matters all that much. This was in DL and I was playing the Korx so my secondary was a not too shabby PQ8. You could play that All Labs, All Factory or anything in between. In DA they reduced the total amount of bonus tiles mainly due to asteroids and so with abundant all type settings the equivilient of a precusor something is about the limit.

However I did mention that as you reduce the abundant settings towards rare the number of bonus tiles increases dramatically. This is because the overall number of bonus tiles is proportional to your galaxy size and the fewer planets there are then the more bonus tiles each planet has.

There are some threads around where people had had planets with virtually a precusros something on every other tile. Things like 3 precusor mines *and* 3 precusror libraries on your home planet. However I prefer a lot of planets and one precusor library is enough to out research the AI's for quite some time.

As I've said a dozen times paying for it is the trick. Also be aware that you cannot gain more than 1 more tech per turn than you have planets. Also note that there are just some techs that you can't seem to get in the same turn no matter how much you spend on them. I usually save the game and figure out what's the maximum tech that I can gain in a single turn and then turn down my research so that I don't waste money.

Anomalies, tech trading and more is necessary to keep you afloat long enough to get what you need. In the end there will be occasions where you just have to turn off research for a bit but that's your absolute last resort.

Again good luck.

I do adjust the sliders when I want the next tech but want not to spend any more resources on it than the minimum, being not interested in carryover towards the next tech in that line.

What I had NOT known, though (at least until very recently), was the N-Planets+1 tech per turn limit.  Playing All Factories late in a game, I could get many techs in one turn.  This generally happened when I had researched one defense or one weapon type deep down the line, naybe to its end, and then had the need for a new defense or weapon.  By then, though, the Colony Rush was well over and I had enough planets so that it that N-Planets+1 was not a limitation.