problems with the visible items/mana issue

but.. but..   I don't!

The reason why is that for me it dumbs the game down to a "if he gets x, then I'll get y" and "if he does x, I can counter that with y". Now, for 99% of you that is probably exactly what you want, because it'll help you win the game. Call me the odd one out, but I don't care much about winning. I care about having fun. What to me is not fun is a conditional game, where you can predict the situation and bring it down to "if he does that I can win because I'll just use this" or "he has no mana left so I can charge in like a runt because he can't protect himself" or "I'm not going to try to cap that flag because he'll win with that artifact", etc which will - cutting corners a bit - tell you in advance what is going to happen. The whole game is one big predictable line of events. How can that be fun? If  you want this, just have 3 AIs play 3 other AIs. Although that would give you more variation and originality than games where you know all stats.

I'm against the idea, I can see confrontations devolving into mechanical affairs, where I know what you're going to do, and you know what I'm going to do at every step of the encounter. I don't care if you can see my items, since you can guess what I have just by attacking me, but if you can see what my consumables are, battles will have a largely predetermined outcome, rather than being a continual assessment of risk. I don't see this as a step in the right direction.

As you say, it will be harder to get kills...imo this is a bad thing, we want more fighting and more kills, so the game ends in a timely fashion. I'd prefer both teams to be getting kills/deaths from making incorrect assumptions to neither team getting any kills because the coordination required to mitigate the extra knowledge is too high for the average PUG.

It's not going to break the game, but I think it will be a step in the wrong direction, making the game more formulaic and grindy and giving less opportunity for people to outthink each other and take proper advantage.

I am completely for it.  It worked in Dota - that much is proven.  People still bluffed in Dota, it just wasn't done in the same matter as Demigod (why is he leading me towards the woods when I could kill him there?  Is there an ambush?  I don't see all the heroes on the minimap, oh crap!)

Regardless I don't see it as hurting Demigod, only helping it.  What would you do differently RIGHT NOW if you could suddenly see you opponent's inventory.  For most aspects of the game not much.  For the interaction with enemy heroes that may change - in the beginning you would be super cautious - oh no, he's got a potion!  I can't kill him now, he'll just run and use it and I'll die.  I better not even attack him at all.

Eventually you learn to integrate the knowledge you have into how you approach things - he has a potion, so I need to be able to burst him for this much or count on him using it....hmm....maybe I can pretend to try to kill him to get him to blow the potion and waste the money....and now you're a better player.

Bad?  I just don't see it, because I know it works.

It was never that simple, but even if it was - ok, so what?  If Demigod A got X, you can get Y to counter it.  So....what about Demigod B and C (or sometimes D and/or E) on the other team?  You aren't countering them.  And this is how it should be because Demigod is a TEAM game.  You should be able to get counters for one person - but if they're working together then your counter may just be negated or not effective at all against the other people.  That's strategy, and team work.

If everyone is good this is very much what happens now, and especially in 1v1 situations.  I know what skills you got and what your HP is, and have a rough idea of your mana and items.  If I've seen you use a potion at any time before duing the game I'm going to assume you have another and I'm not going to overcommit.  You are doing the same for me.  Stalemate in 1v1?  Yep.  That's why you run with other heroes and 2v1 people.  Their carefully timed run and potion falls apart under the dps of 2 people.

Still not an argument against it, imo.

You should NEVER get things for free. When it's information given to you by your allies (e.g. you can just ask them for free) then fine. But nothing about your enemies should be learned for free, ever.

i think you missed the point of this thread.

OP edited.

You're a scrub.

He's a scrub too.

Winner.

You and a friend could just sit in a lobby and keep changing your DG selections to ones who are counters to each other, because that is what the gameplay would essentially be, except with items. Your opponent does this, you do that to counter, but then he does this to counter then you do th- and so on.

Also why do you all argue for seeing items but not skills?

If you're taking away one element of strategy, why not take away the other as well?

Oh wait because it was in DoTA and some people think they're still playing it.

i think should only be able to view your teammates mana/items, just the way it is done in Bmans UI-mod.

-edit- i meant chirmayas equipment and mana display too

Reason:

You're able to predict if your ally has enough mana for Support-Spells, and you can adjust your tactic according

to your teammates items. (or even give helpful comments... no flaming about crap items of course^^)

Bluffing would not be affected and your enemies wouldn't know which items you picked

You don't even need to predict it, you can just ask them

yes i know "oom" is typed into chat really quick

but with bmans godlike team panel you can observe your allys mana flow in real-time,

which enables you to react much faster.

IMO, flow of information should be purposely staunched for the enemy side. Seeing their life is already quite generous. I view the system working on a WYSIWYG approach, with allowances for ally information because it is a necessity for strategic communication. You can SEE an enemy Demigod (Thinking on an  "in universe/in game/in character/lore" PoV) and know he's injured and fleeing. You cannot see the metaphsicial spiritual mana energy. And since items only exist as these same spiritual metaphysicial ability boosts, you cannot see their item selections either. Same as you can't see their skill trees or their GP pool.  I admit, yes, you could make this argument for allies as well, but there's a number of in game lore fluff reasons that could be given as to why allies cna view each other's mana pools and equipment as opposed to a foe's.

Stating "it works for DotA!" is flawed simply because this game isn't DotA. Nor should it try to be. DotA's niche is being DotA, Demigod's niche is being Demigod.

Arguing "OH BUT FLUFF/LORE" is even worse than arguing "OH BUT DOTA".

I'm all for seeing details of allies, because that just speeds up what happens anyway. But I definitely think that enemies = no go.

I am against it, because I dont want game play to devolve into tower hugging because someone can see my items/consumables.

Why is arguing "Oh but fluff/lore" worse than arguing "oh but DotA"?

An aside that probably explains my argument: I DM and have been playing DnD for the last 10ish years. When I see a game has established lore, my immediate inclination is to attempt to explain everything from a logical connectible in game lore friendly method. It's a gut reaction, but I'm curious as to why in game consistency and explanation is a bad thing? For example, the slighlty counter intuitive idea thta you can equip more than one helmet, or armor, or et,c is explained in the manuals in a lore/fluff manner.

If the game was 1 on 1 perhaps that would be true.

But it's not.  Your counter to Demigod A means nothing to Demigods B and C who may have already gotten things to counter you.  Team work and skill will still matter the most.  "Your opponent" is not a single player, but many.  That's where this line of reasoning breaks down.

I'm not sure why everyone is so hung up on keeping Demigod as different from Dota as possible.  Dota was an amazing game.  Dota is STILL an amazing game.  Demigod has several key differences that I think may be better than Dota but this isn't one of them.  "Borrowing" the good things from Dota can only make this game better.

Did you know that they've already changed some things in Dota that borrowed good ideas from Demigod?  Pudge's ult can now drain life making it like UB's foul grasp (UB was mostly a copy of Pudge fyi).  Sven now has a move similar to Oak's Surge of Faith.

They're already taking the good from Demigod and integrating it.  I wonder why people are so scared of Demigod doing the same.

Information is valuable.

I agree.

Taking too much from DOTA would make the game DOTA. If you want to play DOTA, then play DOTA, but don't ask Demigod to become DOTA. I like DG for it's differences. Heroes/gods are much more fun to play in DG is my opinion. Also, the upgraded graphics help

But why would you engage someone with their allies if you can see that ally is equipped to strongly counter you? You wouldn't you'd go buy items to make them less of a counter, so how is having multiple opponents different?

I am for showing more information, at least mana, for teammates.

I am against showing anything more than health for enemies.

I think the game is better than Dota when it doesn't show all that information. It creates more uncertainty and surprise, which makes the game more exhilirating, rather than just a counter-recounter. I believe it takes more skill to play a game when things are not all revealed. Otherwise we might as well take away fog of war.

Having things not revealed allows you to go into a situation, get your butt kicked, and ponder about why you lost and what you can do differently. It takes more critical thinking to figure out what they have (are they moving faster? have lots of health? hitting faster and harder?) and how to overcome them than to just have a list of items you can use to counter everything they buy. More critical thinking adds depth and requires human thought. Knowing A counters B counters C can be programmed into the AI.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but due to Blizzard's map editor, you couldn't take that information away in DOTA. DOTA had no choice. DOTA people have gotten used to that sort of play because there was no other option. Demigod does have a choice, and I think it shouldn't go down the same route.

Once they come out with replays, I think that'll be enough.  Knowing post mortem why your opponent beat you is fine.  Showing current items takes a lot of the surprise out of scenarios. You know that guy has a hit point potion, he knows you have enough mana to penitence him when he tries to use it.  Much less interesting and in the moment.

Because you want to cap flags and they are there?  Because they are attacking your base?  Because they're farming the creeps?  The same reasons you engage anyone now.

That's true, but it was the same thing with Demigod.  The engine they used when developing Demigod is as it was right now - it did not show enemy info.  According to the devs, adding it was possible, but would be a lot of work.  Since they didn't care either way on this issue (according to one of the main devs in an interview) they just opted not to do extra work, leave it like it was, and moved to other things (since they were crunched enough as it was).

So the "show no enemy items/mana" was not a deliberate design decision, it was just like that by default, just like Dota.

But you won't know why if you can't see why things happened.

It's all about the execution.  He knows that you know he has the potion - he can start using it then cancel it while you immediately penitence him.  Now he can use the potion in peace because he faked you out.  Made possible because he knew that you knew he had the potion.  Not possible before - he'd have tried to use it as a surprise and hope you didn't interrupt him in time.

Same situation, different tactics.  I don't see how one is better than another.

^^^^ yep replays (assuming replays reveal everything) should cover the main thrust of the people wanting to see enemy information...if you lose, you can watch the replay and see what the enemy did to beat you.  This won't take away the bluffing/secret knowledge aspects of the game.

It also may be kinda hard to get say, helmets, that look good on say, torch bearers, to look good on oaks, queens of thorns, vamps, rooks, etc.

*edit*

oh, I guess yal aren't necessarily talking about visible items on your character model...oops   .

I also think seeing your team's items is good, but not enemy ones. Because half the time i end up asking what items my team mates have, so they let me know anyway. The enemy team never was so nice though .

You should only be able to see your teammates mana and items, not for the enemy.