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Stardock/GPG please don't listen to the noobs and make this game easy mode!

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Stardock/GPG please don't listen to the noobs and make this game easy mode!

from Demigod Forums

There are so many complainers asking for a panel to see your allies health/mana, and your enemies items. THIS SHOULD NOT BE IN THE GAME, THIS WILL MAKE IT EASY MODE.

Reason #1: This will eliminate the already small amount of communication between teammates in this game. I've played some games with my team on Vent, and very little needed to be said to dominate the other team, most of the time it was "I've low mana, or "watch out, X, this enemy is coming for you.", or "this enemy has low health". In games without vent, most of the things people type are similar to these. An example I use is if someone has a Sedna for a teammate, the Sedna player should have to take the couple of seconds to type out "i've low mana" to let them know they should not be expecting a Heal any time soon if they get damaged.

Reason #2: The game already has barely any micro-managing going on. If you're an assassin micro is practically non-existent. If you're a general, there are few times you need to: getting your minions to set off Reg's mines, getting your gunners to attack towers, and harassing someone with spirits. Beyond that there's almost nothing. If you look at pro RTS players, their mouse is constantly moving. They're monitoring everything they can: how close a certain building is to completion, how many units are still in a queue and things like that. People in this game should have to at least move their mouse over an ally to see their health, doesn't matter if they're in a cluster, you can just press CTRL to target only demigods.

Reason #3: This will make people lazier when they can just glance at the panel without bothering to type anything to let their teammates know they're at low mana,  and eliminate the need of people looking at the item list to come up with their own strategies when they can just copy the items of someone who pwned them.

Reason #4: Compared to others, this game is very easy to master. Knowing is half the battle. Literally. If you have enough experience to know that the scaled helm is better than the plate visor, you're already at a considerable advantage over someone who might not, even if you have equal skill level, micro-skills, memory, reflex etc.. A panel will make it even easier, making it practically a joke.

 

Think of other games. I haven't played Warcraft 3 in a while, but as far as I remember, allied heroes were not shown in the side panel, if you had a Paladin with Holy Light or something, you had to mouse over allies to see their health/mana. If they died, you got a message but that was about it. Few games let you see your teammate's mana. In many FPS, you need to mouse over an ally to see their health too.

demigod
239,426 views 84 replies
Reply #51 from Demigod Forums Top

If Demigod shipped without being able to see what level the enemies were, or even how much hp they exactly had (just a % bar perhaps) I just wonder how many people would be arguing against giving out that info.

"You shouldn't know what level I am, otherwise you might know what abilities I could have!"

"You shouldn't know how much HP I have, it should be a risk whether or not you know if your 600 dmg skill should kill me!"

"You should have to watch how much the % bar changes when you hit me and calculate my HP yourself!"

And so on.  You aren't actually listing real reasons why it would be better, you just have no alternative for comparison.

Reply #52 from Demigod Forums Top

I think enemy info should stay as it is now: Being able to see their level and HP is more than generous enough. their items, mana, and stats should stay hidden. Allies should show you their HP and mana as in the UI overlay, but I couldn't be bothered to look at their items, honestly.

Star Control: Origins
Reply #53 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting InfiniteVengeance, reply 1
If Demigod shipped without being able to see what level the enemies were, or even how much hp they exactly had (just a % bar perhaps) I just wonder how many people would be arguing against giving out that info.

"You shouldn't know what level I am, otherwise you might know what abilities I could have!"

"You shouldn't know how much HP I have, it should be a risk whether or not you know if your 600 dmg skill should kill me!"

"You should have to watch how much the % bar changes when you hit me and calculate my HP yourself!"

And so on.  You aren't actually listing real reasons why it would be better, you just have no alternative for comparison.

You're not responding to me, right? Because I don't agree with any of these statements. Also, I can't think of any RTS-like game where you can't see your opponent's health. Whereas health meters are an almost universally accepted RTS game mechanic, MANY RTS-like games require you to actually work to determine your opponent's upgrades, mana/energy levels, economy, etc. Demigod chose not to make this information readily available. Making it available would clearly, fundamentally change the way the game plays. Why do this?

Reply #54 from Demigod Forums Top

You're not responding to me, right?

Not directly, no.

Also, I can't think of any RTS-like game where you can't see your opponent's health

But the actual amount of health they have?  There are many RTS' that do not!  C&C Red Alert is a good example - you just get hp bars, no numbers are involved.  You don't know how much damage you deal either. (Until you start hacking around in the rules.ini file that is!)

emigod chose not to make this information readily available. Making it available would clearly, fundamentally change the way the game plays. Why do this?

You missed and proved my point - it does make some of it available.  You can see exactly how much HP they have and their level if you hover over them.  You'd probably be arguing against making this information available had Demigod shipped with health bars with no numbers and hidden the enemy's level.

And it would not fundamentally change the game, and I can't see how you'd think that.  You'd do very few things differently, other than checking your opponent's inventory periodically.  You already hover over them to check their levels right now before hurling yourself at them, don't you?  Same thing.  Your actions would change, (they have a potion, maybe I shouldn't chase into the towers) but you would not play the game "fundamentally" differently.

Reply #55 from Demigod Forums Top

And it would not fundamentally change the game, and I can't see how you'd think that.
That's where you are completely wrong. There's a whole mechanic based on this.
(they have a potion, maybe I shouldn't chase into the towers)
And that's it. Bluffing. When you can drive someone stronger out of a lane because they don't know exactly what you have or how much mana you have. That fundamentally changes the game. If you don't think that's a game changer, I don't know what is.
You'd probably be arguing against making this information available had Demigod shipped with health bars with no numbers and hidden the enemy's level.
That would make the game pointless kamikaze, and so you are wrong here, too.

 

:fox:

Reply #56 from Demigod Forums Top

And that's it. Bluffing. When you can drive someone stronger out of a lane because they don't know exactly what you have or how much mana you have. That fundamentally changes the game. If you don't think that's a game changer, I don't know what is.

How often is this "bluffing" as a fundamental game mechanic actually used?  Rarely if at all from what I've seen.  And who's the say that the ability to bluff makes this a better game?  There's bluffing in Poker.  There's no bluffing in Chess. Which is the better game?  Not so clear now, huh?

Plus I don't see how bluffing is only possible because your mana and items are hidden.

That would make the game pointless kamikaze, and so you are wrong here, too.

Basis for this?

Reply #57 from Demigod Forums Top

How often is this "bluffing" as a fundamental game mechanic actually used? Rarely if at all from what I've seen.
I've seen it used quite often. Even experienced players can fall for this, and I'll quite often hold off on a potion just long enough for an ally to join in to make sure they'll die instead. It's kind of the idea behind mines.

And who's the say that the ability to bluff makes this a better game? There's bluffing in Poker. There's no bluffing in Chess. Which is the better game? Not so clear now, huh?
That's kind of the whole basis for both our argument...

Plus I don't see how bluffing is only possible because your mana and items are hidden.
How are you going to bluff in poker whn the opponent can see all your cards? All you can do without this is try to gank, AFAIK.

Basis for this?
To correct myself, it would either be pointless stalemate or Rambo. Either somebody will never risk anything as everything is a gamble, or somebody just charges on the basis of "I *could* be winning. The next hit *might* kill them."

 

:fox:

Reply #58 from Demigod Forums Top

How often is this "bluffing" as a fundamental game mechanic actually used? Rarely if at all from what I've seen

Then I guess you haven't played verses many Sedena's hiding in the Fog of War, giving that Demigod you thought you had a clutch heal :D

 

And who's the say that the ability to bluff makes this a better game? There's bluffing in Poker. There's no bluffing in Chess. Which is the better game? Not so clear now, huh?

You're right, both games work with or without bluffing. But what you are saying, making ALL secret information avalible in this game, is like player Poker where you can see everyone's cards.

How?  It adds strategy because you might (just might) be able to buy certain items that actually counter what your opponent is doing.  If they're going all damage and no attack speed you could get attack speed reducing items.  If they're going all attack speed there's a thorns item or damage debuff items.

I think it's just as much strategy when it's secret. If you notice you are taking lots of auto-attack damage, and you still want to stand toe-to-toe, you buy more armor. If you notice your enemies are moving much faster than you, you can get speed buffs yourself. Most of it you can just perceive, which is a skill in of itself. And as far as potions go, I think that's the whole point. Being able to pull a clutch heal out of nowhere to throw off your oppoenent. Which makes going for the kill when you yourself have 20% less health risky, and it should be.

I agree making ALL information avalible can add strategy, but it takes just as much away. But to me, having most of the enemies information secrect makes for more overall enjoyable gameplay.

 

To correct myself, it would either be pointless stalemate or Rambo. Either somebody will never risk anything as everything is a gamble, or somebody just charges on the basis of "I *could* be winning. The next hit *might* kill them."
Excellent point, I was going to say just that but couldn't figure out how to word it. Where there is an element of the unknown, it makes the game more exciteing. If everything is known(like a game of chess) it becomes a game of strict rules and counters. So maybe Demigod is more like Stratego...man that's a lot of board game analogies :D

Reply #59 from Demigod Forums Top

this game is going to fail very hard in the "competitive" area.

Either somebody will never risk anything as everything is a gamble, or somebody just charges on the basis of "I *could* be winning.

at a professional level, this game becomes a joke if every single player is going to be thinking that.

if there is any element of doubt in a situation, THEY ARENT GOING TO KEEP FIGHTING which means it ruins the game because there isnt enough killing/interaction with the other team. it just becomes a capture the flag fest.

the reason people(imo) think that others shouldnt be able to see others items/mana is because "I HAVE CRAPPY ITEMS IM A NOOB DONT LET THEM SEE THAT".

there are hardly any items that provide good utility that are worth knowing as an oponent has anyway.

please stop listening to the retards.

make the game more useful for pros or else they will leave this game.

 

Reply #60 from Demigod Forums Top

the reason people(imo) think that others shouldnt be able to see others items/mana is because "I HAVE CRAPPY ITEMS IM A NOOB DONT LET THEM SEE THAT".
No.

"I just sold all my items and got Giants, I don't want them to see that."

"I just sold a couple of mana helms and bought Ashkandor, I don't want them to know that until I beat their face in."

 

:fox:

Reply #61 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting StAcK3D_ActR, reply 9
this game is going to fail very hard in the "competitive" area.


Either somebody will never risk anything as everything is a gamble, or somebody just charges on the basis of "I *could* be winning.
at a professional level, this game becomes a joke if every single player is going to be thinking that.

if there is any element of doubt in a situation, THEY ARENT GOING TO KEEP FIGHTING which means it ruins the game because there isnt enough killing/interaction with the other team. it just becomes a capture the flag fest.

the reason people(imo) think that others shouldnt be able to see others items/mana is because "I HAVE CRAPPY ITEMS IM A NOOB DONT LET THEM SEE THAT".

there are hardly any items that provide good utility that are worth knowing as an oponent has anyway.

please stop listening to the retards.

make the game more useful for pros or else they will leave this game.

 

I'm confused about what your are trying to say. Are you saying that making gear public knownledge is for pros or keeping it secret is?

Reply #62 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting StAcK3D_ActR, reply 9
this game is going to fail very hard in the "competitive" area.


Either somebody will never risk anything as everything is a gamble, or somebody just charges on the basis of "I *could* be winning.


at a professional level, this game becomes a joke if every single player is going to be thinking that.

if there is any element of doubt in a situation, THEY ARENT GOING TO KEEP FIGHTING which means it ruins the game because there isnt enough killing/interaction with the other team. it just becomes a capture the flag fest.

the reason people(imo) think that others shouldnt be able to see others items/mana is because "I HAVE CRAPPY ITEMS IM A NOOB DONT LET THEM SEE THAT".

there are hardly any items that provide good utility that are worth knowing as an oponent has anyway.

please stop listening to the retards.

make the game more useful for pros or else they will leave this game.

 

Obviously you aren't even close to a pro, so don't act like you know what the good players want.

Reply #63 from Demigod Forums Top

I'm confused about what your are trying to say. Are you saying that making gear public knownledge is for pros or keeping it secret is?

keeping it secret is fucking retarded. there is only the "bluffing" benefit. it just makes it easier for noobs(people cant complain about "omg u got that crap item").

a pro will not risk going into a fight with 50% chance of them winning, it is pointless.

a loss of hp, time, exp, gold all factor into a fight.

if u are willing to run in like a retard with 50% chance to get your ass kicked, is it really worth giving them 1k gold, experience AND 30seconds of free farming time? NO. in your right mind you wouldnt do something so stupid would u?

please get it into your thick brains that, making items/mana visible to your opponents adds another layer of strategy depth to the game. hiding them away doesnt, it ruins the game and makes it fucking boring.

 

Reply #64 from Demigod Forums Top

keeping it secret is fucking retarded. there is only the "bluffing" benefit. it just makes it easier for noobs(people cant complain about "omg u got that crap item").
I would think it would make it eaiser for noobs.

please get it into your thick brains that, making items/mana visible to your opponents adds another layer of strategy depth to the game. hiding them away doesnt, it ruins the game and makes it fucking boring.

I think the oppostion has raised some good points. What's up with the offensive and snarky reply?

Reply #65 from Demigod Forums Top

What's up with the offensive and snarky reply?

it pisses me off haha!

oh and also, people dont post valid reasons why it is bad to have items/mana being seen(except for bluffing ofc). they just say "i dont care what items they have, and i dont want to let them see mine"

 

Reply #66 from Demigod Forums Top

if u are willing to run in like a retard with 50% chance to get your ass kicked, is it really worth giving them 1k gold, experience AND 30seconds of free farming time? NO. in your right mind you wouldnt do something so stupid would u?
And you're ever going to fight when you know they have an advantage?

 

:fox:

Reply #67 from Demigod Forums Top

It's ok man, just game. To respond to one of your earlier  comments.

Quoting StAcK3D_ActR, reply 15

having this information in the game adds another level of strategic depth.

...

"erebus has no more mana, he cant use bite/mist on me now haha! eat my spit, counter that now sucker!"

"he is regening with his HoL, maybe i should attack him with one of my spirit minions."

"sedna has no mana for heal, chase him down into those towers"

there are endless amounts of examples.

Aren't these things you could also figure out through perception and learning the mechanics of the game or costs of certain abilties? I think it's the exact same type of strategy but keeping things secret makes it a little less obvious. PLUS the added level of strategy of bluffing when it comes to potions or any other consumable.

 

if there is any element of doubt in a situation, THEY ARENT GOING TO KEEP FIGHTING which means it ruins the game because there isnt enough killing/interaction with the other team. it just becomes a capture the flag fest.

Isn't that they same as KNOWING you can't win because you can see their gear? So isn't it still a capture the flag fest in that reguard?

Reply #68 from Demigod Forums Top

Aren't these things you could also figure out through perception and learning the mechanics of the game or costs of certain abilties?

yes but, for example, at lvl 1

if an erebus gets staff of warmage, he is able to cast nearly 2 extra bites(plus potions). but of course you cannot know this if it is in the first minute of the game and you cannot see the enemies items/mana.

then there is bluffing, so if i was playing erebus, i would pretend to have no mana left after the second bite, then cast a potion on very low hp(makes them really think i have no mana), then cast bite again. imo this makes it too easy, no skill required.

Reply #69 from Demigod Forums Top

if an erebus gets staff of warmage, he is able to cast nearly 2 extra bites(plus potions). but of course you cannot know this if it is in the first minute of the game and you cannot see the enemies items/mana.
Yeah but anyone can do this. Why are "surpises" not pro?

 

then there is bluffing, so if i was playing erebus, i would pretend to have no mana left after the second bite, then cast a potion on very low hp(makes them really think i have no mana), then cast bite again. imo this makes it too easy, no skill required.

Again, anyone can do this. And how does this make it too easy with no skill? What if you tried that strat and it didn't work?Seems like it would only be "too easy" if you won with that.

I think that's part of the early game dynamic. Do you play consertive or try to force your hand and go for an early kill?(Like doing the tricks you stated)

But after the initital clash I still think perception answers most of your issues and is another layer of skill in of itself.

Reply #70 from Demigod Forums Top

nevermind, im not going to bother converting people to think the making opponents items/mana is a good thing anymore.

it sucks, its a supid idea, dont implement viewable mana/items of your opponents, there is no benefit to the game if you add this function.

Reply #71 from Demigod Forums Top

it sucks, its a supid idea, dont implement viewable mana/items of your opponents, there is no benefit to the game if you add this function.
Exactly. :X ;P

 

:fox:

Reply #72 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting bman654, reply 11
It displays the healthbars on some sort of log scale.  So that the demigod may still have 50% health like 2k hitpoints but the little healthbar will show as empty making you think you can kill them with just one more swing.

 

It's alot simpler than log scales (which wouldn't make sense in any UI dev's mind surely?), the UI just doesn't scale well when you zoom in and out. If you're zoomed right in it seems to be a pretty accurate representation, but as you zoom out further it starts to chop off a portion of the left side of the bar instead of scaling perfectly.

Reply #73 from Demigod Forums Top

I have an idea, guys! Let's remove the fog of war completely, so there's no more of this nonsense 'bluffing' tactic!

Reply #74 from Demigod Forums Top

only thing that needs to be changed is an ally hp/mana panel must be added mostly for easy targeting purposes.

 

seeing enemy items would make this game borderline homosexual.

Reply #75 from Stardock Forums Top

Well in real life you can't see what or how much health a person has you are up against. So, reality wise I agree with the OP. Don't give so much information. Players should have to FEEL each other out. Discover through trial an ELIMINATIONs. ;)